• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

Status
Not open for further replies.
Vixen said:
How do you know in Svensson's case it wasn't kept secret?
Click to expand...

Reversing the burden of proof and argument from silence. You are the one claiming a cover story had to be invented to conceal the real reason Svensson's medal was awarded. You provide no evidence that he was awarded it for anything other than what was stated. The supposition you supply instead of evidence is rendered moot by the awarding of the same medal in other cases without disclosing the reason. They could have simply done the same thing in Svensson's case if it was awarded for something they did not want to reveal.
 
Last edited:
Vixen said:
That is just detail.
Click to expand...
Hopeless. It's what happened.

And the lives he saved from doing it are why he got his medal and why he's credited with saving them. Absolutely nobody is going to be deluded into believing your insane idea that he is not credited with saving those lives when operating from Y74.
 
Vixen said:
That is just detail.
Click to expand...

So is the number of people the JAIC describes the "Y 64 rescue man" as having saved after he took over for the injured Y 74 rescue man.

That detail is in the paragraph on Y 74 in section 7.5.5.

How many people does the JAIC describe Svensson as rescuing in that "detail"?
 
Vixen said:
That is not how survivors and the dead were counted.

It was not a competition amongst the individual rescue men.
Click to expand...


Why have you invented the strawman about a "competition"?

This is all ridiculously simple:

1) Svensson rescued 1 survivor when he was serving as the rescue man on Y64.

2) Svensson then transferred to Y74 (because the winch broke on Y64, meaning that Svensson had to unclip from the winch cable and remain on the ocean surface until he was himself winched up by Y74).

3) Svensson took over as the rescue man on Y74 (because Y74's original rescue man had become injured).

4) Svensson then proceeded - as rescue man on Y74 - to rescue 7 more survivors.

5) Therefore, Svensson rescued 8 survivors in total: 1 while he was operating as the rescue man on Y64, and 7 while he was operating as the rescue man on Y74.


Sheeeeeeeeeeesh.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
But he was also with Y 74 on their team after the rescue man for that helicopter was injured and he took his place.
Click to expand...


It appears that this incredibly simple point of comprehension is nevertheless beyond Vixen's reach. Says it all, really.......
 
Vixen said:
No, this was to recover the bodies before even the day two stage.
Click to expand...


You do realise, don't you Vixen, that this particular sub-thread all goes back to your original assertion that

Raising the Estonia was also said to be manageable.
Click to expand...


Yet you're now moving the goalposts and claiming it purely relates to the recovery of bodies.

And in any case, if the sole aim was the recovery of bodies, it would have been functionally impossible for any dive team to have recovered any more bodies than those which were either visible or behind ingress points on the upper decks. There's effectively no way in which any dive team would have been able to roam through the interior of the ship locating and recovering the bodies of those who'd died deeper inside the vessel. It would have been crazily unsafe to have tried to do so. And a sizeable proportion of the "missing, presumed dead" passengers/crew wouldn't even have been within the wreck in any case - they'd have drowned or frozen to death in open water, and they would have been carried away into the vast open seas, never to be seen again.

And with that in mind, do you perhaps see any valid reason (and yes, there is a valid reason, even though you probably don't see it) why the respective national governments might have found it politically and ethically questionable (at best) to sponsor and pay for an operation which recovered only a small proportion of the missing-presumed-dead passengers/crew?
 
Vixen said:
Then you do not have the insider knowledge and I shall not be drawn.
Click to expand...


LOL @ the (entirely unjustified and hilariously misplaced) pomposity!

You're not fooling anyone here, Vixen. You're responding in this way purely in a pathetic (and failed) attempt to avoid pertinent questions.
 
Vixen said:
How do you know in Svensson's case it wasn't kept secret?

JAIC's long flowery description of the Y64/Y74/Y69 rescue is simply to conceal the fact his rescued eight/nine were at an earlier time, and these included the senior crew, retrospectively removed from the survivors list.

From a study of the facts and timeline at hand, that is what seems to have happened.
Click to expand...


LOL

No, Vixen. No it's not. The 7 (live) survivors Svensson rescued on Y74 are all properly documented and accounted for in the official records.
 
LondonJohn said:
You do realise, don't you Vixen, that this particular sub-thread all goes back to your original assertion that




Yet you're now moving the goalposts and claiming it purely relates to the recovery of bodies.

And in any case, if the sole aim was the recovery of bodies, it would have been functionally impossible for any dive team to have recovered any more bodies than those which were either visible or behind ingress points on the upper decks. There's effectively no way in which any dive team would have been able to roam through the interior of the ship locating and recovering the bodies of those who'd died deeper inside the vessel. It would have been crazily unsafe to have tried to do so. And a sizeable proportion of the "missing, presumed dead" passengers/crew wouldn't even have been within the wreck in any case - they'd have drowned or frozen to death in open water, and they would have been carried away into the vast open seas, never to be seen again.

And with that in mind, do you perhaps see any valid reason (and yes, there is a valid reason, even though you probably don't see it) why the respective national governments might have found it politically and ethically questionable (at best) to sponsor and pay for an operation which recovered only a small proportion of the missing-presumed-dead passengers/crew?
Click to expand...

They probably got a lot of them back in their crab salad.
 
LondonJohn said:
Why have you invented the strawman about a "competition"?

This is all ridiculously simple:

1) Svensson rescued 1 survivor when he was serving as the rescue man on Y64.

2) Svensson then transferred to Y74 (because the winch broke on Y64, meaning that Svensson had to unclip from the winch cable and remain on the ocean surface until he was himself winched up by Y74).

3) Svensson took over as the rescue man on Y74 (because Y74's original rescue man had become injured).

4) Svensson then proceeded - as rescue man on Y74 - to rescue 7 more survivors.

5) Therefore, Svensson rescued 8 survivors in total: 1 while he was operating as the rescue man on Y64, and 7 while he was operating as the rescue man on Y74.


Sheeeeeeeeeeesh.
Click to expand...

Svensson rescued six, not seven on Y74. The Y 69 rescue man they recovered self-rescued.
 
Vixen said:
Here is a list of the teams:

https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/ES002173_00023#?c=&m=&s=&cv=22&xywh=-1726,-619,5971,3308

So, you see, it is official.
Click to expand...

Could you please READ that official document.

I mean, read what they write. The text, not just the lists of names.

I have already two times told you what specific part you need to read. Page 2(3) of report for helicopter Y74, the fourth paragraph of "Genomförande"

You have refused to do so. I'm starting to believe that you can't read Swedish at all.

That paragraph tells you that Svensson rescued people while on Y74. The "Ytb SEK" that they winch down is Svensson. They tell that earlier on the section.

So please, read the texts that you yourself post as sources.
 
Vixen said:
Thanks for the information. However, I was being tongue-in-cheek. My fifth great grandmother was a listed Swedish noble. Thus, I have zero motivation to 'denigrate Sweden and the Swedish'. Your ad hominem claim is a preposterous one, based on zero justification.
Click to expand...


You have been bringing up the negative stereotypes about the Swedish. That there is a stereotype that Swedes are sissy gays has nothing to do with Estonia, but for some reason you thought it necessary to mention that and to say that it is a Finnish thing to joke about it.

Joking about gay Swedes isn't a universal Finnish thing. In my experience the only adults who do that are those who think both that being Swedish and being gay are bad. Spreading those jokes is a kid and teen thing and people grow out of it in their twenties the latest.

It sounds to me like you are dancing on the line with a "Some say Swedes are gay sissies. I think Swedes are wonderful, but hey, did you know that some people say Swedes are gay sissies?" performance.

What you post shapes the opinions of other posters. You bring up negative stereotypes of Swedes when there is no reason to do it and people will believe that you hold them.

The advice that I gave you before on anti-semitism holds here too: if you don't want people to think that you hate Swedes, don't post negative stereotypes about them.
 
Here's how the alternate reality seems to work:

Rescuing people by helicopter is like golf. If you rescue people from someone else's helicopter then that's like playing a shot with someone else's golf ball. Even if you get a hole in one, it doesn't officially count.

So Svensson officially rescued one person from Y64. And rescued lots more from Y74 but they don't officially count because due to the official rules of officially rescuing people it wasn't officially his helicopter.

Since Svensson was officially awarded an official medal for officially rescuing lots of people, he must have secretly rescued them on another flight on his own official helicopter.

I'm sorry, but those are the official rules. If you doubt them then I guess you're just not as gullible as I need you to be.
 
Vixen said:
Not compensate, as in your scurrilous meaning as in a 'bribe'. It is in the psychological sense the rescue he got a medal for was no longer public. To respect his feelings.
Click to expand...
Since when does "keep him sweet" mean "respect his feelings"?

You said we was given a medal to keep him sweet.

Your legs must be aching with all this desperate backpedaling.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
"Insider knowledge" of what? Are you claiming to be privy to knowledge withheld from the general public about Hill's activities? Because you're lying again if you are.

ETA: Or maybe you mean on the formation of Combat 18? I know about the formation of Combat 18 Vixen. I know what they are (and what they aren't). Are you claiming to have insider knowledge? Why on earth would you?
Click to expand...


Perhaps Vixen was a subscriber.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom