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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

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Captain_Swoop said:
Because in the Cold War the world was a very different place.

Sweden was supposed to be a neutral 'non-aligned' country.
It was operating secret, sigint recon flights using top secret British electronics.

Russia denied shooting the aircraft down and Sweden denied they were spy flights.

It was classified and secret from the start. It was genuine spy stuff.

It happened quite often in the Cold War, a lot of incidents were reported as accidents at the time and are still classified.
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That does not excuse their failing to inform the men's families they had died in action, instead of giving them false hope they might still be alive in a gulag. It was the Russians who declassified it. The Swedish airmen were not even over Russian waters.
 
Vixen said:
As I have said, I do not agree with either of them. For crying out loud I have a mind of my own. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?
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Answer the question. Provide evidence of what you are claiming happens.

Real world examples of a disinformation agent who espouses a view in order to link it with extremism. You made the claim, back it up for once.
 
Vixen said:
They were brave in the course of action for their country or their fellow men.

Whilst saving someone from the sea is brilliant, it is not in that league just because you fell in and had to be rescued and then went down on another winch, thus you were safe.
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Why is it not in that league? Was it not an action for his country or fellow man? He was a serving naval officer that went above and beyond his duty, putting the safety of others before his own.
 
Vixen said:
That does not excuse their failing to inform the men's families they had died in action, instead of giving them false hope they might still be alive in a gulag. It was the Russians who declassified it. The Swedish airmen were not even over Russian waters.
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War is hell.
 
Vixen said:
Did you not comprehend what I said?

I challenge you to prove I have ever cited anything by this person.
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I challenge you to show me what other source you used to support the notion that Sweden disappeared those Egyptians. Who else had made that claim? Who else has connected it with Pihtgate?

And I asked first.

btw: I am not suggesting that you cited Bollyn. I am suggesting that you plagiarized him.

Prove me wrong.
 
Vixen said:
You seem to have a fixation about a certain character and seem paranoid that he is guiding my thoughts.



You can relax.
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Which character? Why is noting that your thoughts are essentially identical to some other person's "paranoid?". What makes you think I'm not relaxed?

You have a history of denying or disavowing sources when they become untenable. How is it paranoid to point out that you are following a predictable pattern?
 
Much like you crib from Bjorkman, right down to the same breaks in what you're claiming is the Aftonbladet report and apparent total lack of understanding of what's in the bits Bjorkman doesn't quote.
 
Reformed Offlian said:
I challenge you to show me what other source you used to support the notion that Sweden disappeared those Egyptians. Who else had made that claim? Who else has connected it with Pihtgate?

And I asked first.

btw: I am not suggesting that you cited Bollyn. I am suggesting that you plagiarized him.

Prove me wrong.
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As I recall, the first I was aware of the Egyptians was a mention by Drew Wilson, in his book The Hole.

So you see, no one person owns any one piece of information.
 
Vixen said:
As I recall, the first I was aware of the Egyptians was a mention by Drew Wilson, in his book The Hole.

So you see, no one person owns any one piece of information.
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Does Drew Wilson claim that it was an enforced disapperance? Does he connect the case with Avo Piht?
 
MarkCorrigan said:
No it wasn't.

You are aware that "cold war" wasn't just a cutesy name, right?
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Stuff still happens.

BBC report today, in late 2020 a Russian submarine being tracked by HMS Northumberland came into contact with her towed array sonar.

A UK defence source said it was unlikely the collision was deliberate.

HMS Northumberland was searching for the submarine in the Arctic Circle after it disappeared from the ship's radar, according to Channel 5, which was filming for its Warship: Life at Sea series.
The MoD said the frigate had located the hunter-killer submarine using the towed array sonar - a long tube fitted with sensitive hydrophones to listen under the water. (a very long cable up to arond 500 meters long that can be sent down to various depths astern)
A periscope was spotted on the surface by the ship's Merlin helicopter before the Russian submarine dived again, hitting HMS Northumberland's sonar.

There has been an increase in Russian submarine activity in recent years, and Royal Navy frigates regularly patrol the North Atlantic.
The MoD would not usually comment on operations but it has done so because the incident was caught on camera.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news
 
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Vixen said:
It doesn't stop them telling the families of the dead airmen that they died in action. Why string them along for forty years, just to maintain an image that nobody was much looking at anyway.
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1. Yes it does. There are families of MACV-SOG operators who died in SE Asia who still don't know the details.

2. You don't know what the families were told.

3. Nobody was strung along.

I have family who flew those kinds of missions. He told us if he croaked we'd flag and maybe a medal, but no explanation other than he died in service to his country. That's the game. The families of those who play it know the rules.
 
Vixen said:
It doesn't release the buoy until it is under one to four metres (12 feet and a bit) of water. Hence the term hydrostatic release.


How can any crew member manually activate it when the ship is at that stage?



.
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Is your comprehension ability really this poor? Or are you doing one of your famous "jokes" again?

Because the required procedure for these sorts of EPIRB is that a crewmember manually switches them on before the ship sinks. The crewmember then either manually throws the EPIRB into the water (especially if the ship is, by then, more-or-less stationary), or - especially if the ship is either under power or drifting strongly - leaves the EPIRBs in their cradle so that they are released at the point & place of sinking.
 
Vixen said:
So how come of those names that were supposedly listed in error, only one of them, Vahtras, was subsequently recovered as deceased?
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Seriously?

How about: because either a) the other crewmembers in question were deeper within the ship when it went down (and therefore have not been located or identified since); or b) those other crewmembers ended up drowning (or succumbing to hypothermia) in open seas, and their bodies were carried away, ultimately sinking to the sea bed?

In assessing your own ignorance, you might perhaps ask yourself how so many of the passengers who died were recognised as having died. Because the answer to that question, in most instances, is simply this: they were not among the known survivors. After all, for many who died, their bodies have never been identified (let alone recovered), owing to the fact that they were either deeper within the ship when it sank, or they escaped the ship but drowned and sank once in the water.

Are your reasoning abilities really this poor, Vixen? Really?
 
Vixen said:
My source? I have been following this story ever since the day I heard the news, so the sources are myriad (no not that one).

Sometimes, when an expert in his field or an investigative journalist is trashed, it can be because they are too close to the truth (cf David Kelly and the Weapons of Mass Destruction) so their reputations are smeared in the press, or alternatively, disinformation agents do the opposite, in order to depict them as extremists and lunatics, whilst pretending to promulgate the same views and aligning them with unsavoury types.

This is why it is important for people to think for themselves instead of mindlessly accepting what they are told.
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Ahhhh, the clarion call of conspiracy theorists the world over.....

(The problem of course comes when 1) people are either incapable of, or unwilling to, understand/assess evidence properly and form proper deductions; 2) people reflexively form the un-evidenced assumption that their malevolent governments are lying to them; and 3) people consume too much ludicrous crime fiction. Your efforts in this thread are vivid evidence of all of this in action, Vixen.)
 
Vixen said:
As is the case with any world news, any Tom, Dick and Harry can talk about it.

You are committing a granfalloon.
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LOLOLOL

We can add "granfalloon" to the lengthy list of terms that a) you clearly do not understand, yet b) you think you understand, and think that it supports your "argument".

Brava Vixen, brava!!
 
Vixen said:
As I recall, the first I was aware of the Egyptians was a mention by Drew Wilson, in his book The Hole.

So you see, no one person owns any one piece of information.
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Just as David Icke doesn't own the "information" that the British Royal Family are shape-shifting lizards....

You've been caught lying (again) Vixen. This time in relation to the true sources (or, uhmm.... "inspirations") of your ridiculous opinions about the Estonia disaster. Time to (wo)man up.
 
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