Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[Axxman300]

Ahhhh, the clarion call of conspiracy theorists the world over.....

(The problem of course comes when 1) people are either incapable of, or unwilling to, understand/assess evidence properly and form proper deductions; 2) people reflexively form the un-evidenced assumption that their malevolent governments are lying to them; and 3) people consume too much ludicrous crime fiction. Your efforts in this thread are vivid evidence of all of this in action, Vixen.)

The best part of this one is I knew little about the sinking, so I had to start from scratch. I've watched all the Youtube videos, normal and CT, read the JAIC, and the counter CT version.

The CT-nutjobs are playing the usual games citing secrecy, and unanswered questions (which have nothing to do with the sinking). Throw in unsubstantiated claims by unnamed "witnesses" and it's the usual clown show.

I watched all of the dive footage from the original survey and the latest one. The bow is heavily damaged beyond the missing visor, and that tells me everything I need to know about the sea conditions on the night of the sinking.

 

[Marras]

Not necessarily. Terry Waite disappeared as a hostage for several years. The fact he reappeared and was alive does not cancel out the fact he was disappeared by his captors.

Do we have to add the word 'hostage' to the list of concepts that you refuse to understand?

The all-mighty google defines 'hostage' as: 'person seized or held as security for the fulfilment of a condition.'

For this to happen it's important that the other guys know that you have the hostage. If they don't know it, they have absolutely no reason to not do whatever it is that you don't want it to do.

Disappearing someone makes that someone 100% useless as a hostage.

 

[Mojo]

OK OK I guess for a Swede falling from a winch and having to treadwater until someone rescued him, would command the highest medal for bravery.






[NB that was a joke before anybody gets upset.]

It’s not the first time you’ve used this strawman though, is it?

 

[Mojo]

This is why it is important for people to think for themselves instead of mindlessly accepting what they are told.

 

[Vixen]

Does Drew Wilson claim that it was an enforced disapperance? Does he connect the case with Avo Piht?

No. The point is that Sweden was not averse to doing it. It was a note at the back, so intrigued, I looked it up for myself.

 

[Vixen]

1. Yes it does. There are families of MACV-SOG operators who died in SE Asia who still don't know the details.

2. You don't know what the families were told.

3. Nobody was strung along.

I have family who flew those kinds of missions. He told us if he croaked we'd flag and maybe a medal, but no explanation other than he died in service to his country. That's the game. The families of those who play it know the rules.

We do know what they were told because a poster linked to an article written by a family member who had been searching for an answer for years.


Fair enough if it was in the course of combat or derring do gallantry.

However, if I pass a burning house, dive in and save six little children, an adorable dog and a fluffy cat from near certain death, give me a BBC Brave Person of the Year Award or even an OBE. Do not give me the Mannerheim Cross or the Victoria Cross.

 

[Mojo]

I challenge you to show me what other source you used to support the notion that Sweden disappeared those Egyptians. Who else had made that claim? Who else has connected it with Pihtgate?

And I asked first.

btw: I am not suggesting that you cited Bollyn. I am suggesting that you plagiarized him.

Prove me wrong.

As I recall, the first I was aware of the Egyptians was a mention by Drew Wilson, in his book The Hole.

So you see, no one person owns any one piece of information.

Does Drew Wilson claim that it was an enforced disapperance? Does he connect the case with Avo Piht?

No. The point is that Sweden was not averse to doing it. It was a note at the back, so intrigued, I looked it up for myself.

So Wilson wasn’t the source for your claim that Sweden disappeared the Egyptians.

Try again.

 

[JesseCuster]

However, if I pass a burning house, dive in and save six little children, an adorable dog and a fluffy cat from near certain death, give me a BBC Brave Person of the Year Award or even an OBE. Do not give me the Mannerheim Cross or the Victoria Cross.

The Victoria Cross is only given to military personnel for actions in the face of the enemy, you'd be ineligible for it in those circumstances.

You might get the George Cross for such heroics though.

But I'm sure you knew that...

 

[Andy_Ross]

We do know what they were told because a poster linked to an article written by a family member who had been searching for an answer for years.


Fair enough if it was in the course of combat or derring do gallantry.

However, if I pass a burning house, dive in and save six little children, an adorable dog and a fluffy cat from near certain death, give me a BBC Brave Person of the Year Award or even an OBE. Do not give me the Mannerheim Cross or the Victoria Cross.

Why do you insult acts of bravery?
Have you any idea about why medals are awarded and how?

As a civilian in the UK you could be awarded one of four levels of medal for bravery right up to the 'Civilian VC' the George Cross.

My dad got the Queens Commendation for Bravery in the 60s, it is awarded for "for Bravery entailing risk to life and meriting national recognition"
It's open to both to civilians in peacetime conditions and to all ranks of the British Armed Forces for actions not in the presence of an enemy. It is denoted by a silver spray of laurel leaves

He went to Buckingham palace to be presented by the Queen.

There was an explosion in the air conditioning plant room aboard a tanker. Three other men working with him in the room were injured and overcome by the ammonia gas released. (Now banned as a refrigerant aboard ships).
He pulled one of them out of the room and went back in for a second, he got him out but when he went in for the third he was also overcome by the fumes.
By that time the Mate and other crew had arrived with breathing gear and he was pulled back out, the third man he went in for was already dead.

Why do you spout of the crap you do to try and denigrate recipients of awards for bravery?

 

[Vixen]

The Victoria Cross is only given to military personnel for actions in the face of the enemy, you'd be ineligible for it in those circumstances.

You might get the George Cross for such heroics though.

But I'm sure you knew that...

From the wikipedia, the Gold Medal with Sword is a 'combat award'.

The Swedish Armed Forces Medal of Merit is a Swedish military award and medal established by the Swedish Armed Forces in 1995. The award is a combat award but is not included in the war decorations . It was distributed on the recommendation of the Commander-in-Chief .

wiki

 

[Andy_Ross]

It is not a war medal.

It was distributed on the recommendation of the Commander-in-Chief.

Here are the reasons it was awarded, from your own link.

Gold medal can be awarded either for:

extraordinarily personal courage which saved human lives
repeated dangerous efforts to save lives or for
extraordinary effort that in a decisive way benefited the Armed Forces
outstanding efforts that have benefited the Armed Forces.

An upright sword of gold and silver, respectively, is placed on the medal ribbon if the medal has been awarded for personal courage.

 

[Vixen]

Why do you insult acts of bravery?
Have you any idea about why medals are awarded and how?

As a civilian in the UK you could be awarded one of four levels of medal for bravery right up to the 'Civilian VC' the George Cross.

My dad got the Queens Commendation for Bravery in the 60s, it is awarded for "for Bravery entailing risk to life and meriting national recognition"
It's open to both to civilians in peacetime conditions and to all ranks of the British Armed Forces for actions not in the presence of an enemy. It is denoted by a silver spray of laurel leaves

He went to Buckingham palace to be presented by the Queen.

There was an explosion in the air conditioning plant room aboard a tanker. Three other men working with him in the room were injured and overcome by the ammonia gas released. (Now banned as a refrigerant aboard ships).
He pulled one of them out of the room and went back in for a second, he got him out but when he went in for the third he was also overcome by the fumes.
By that time the Mate and other crew had arrived with breathing gear and he was pulled back out, the third man he went in for was already dead.

Why do you spout of the crap you do to try and denigrate recipients of awards for bravery?

I certainly have not denigrated any recipient award for bravery. As I say, I am sure Svensson did something exceptional for his award. I am sceptical it was to do with what JAIC describe and the Wikipedia footnote entered by a contributor describes the same in a newspaper article but it doesn't follow that this was the reason for the award.

All this talk of medals made me go back to my late parents photo album to try to identify the two medals my [late] grandmother was wearing. In the picture she looks austere and stoical and in black clothing. The photo is dated 1948. The medals appear to be The Mourning Liberty Cross, both with two swords and on a black ribbon. Two beloved sons sacrificed on the altar of fighting for the fatherland.

OK, so these are posthumous awards. Her husband and male sons (my uncles) all received veteran medals and Freedom of the City. Veterans are still revered, even though there are now very few of them left.

It would be disproportionate IMV to give the same medal to the type of situation described by the JAIC in 7.5.5 of their report. Of course, the Finnish helicopter and ship rescuers received medals for their heroism and courage in the annual President's awards on Independence Day, but that was a dozen or more of them, not just the one. It was team work.

 

[Andy_Ross]

By your new definition the aircrew shot down in the 50s shouldn't have been awarded the medal, they were not at war or in combat.


Like Svensson they were on duty when the actions leading to the award occurred.

It is the only medal available to be awarded for bravery in the Swedish military outside of a war.

 

[Andy_Ross]

I certainly have not denigrated any recipient award for bravery. As I say, I am sure Svensson did something exceptional for his award. I am sceptical it was to do with what JAIC describe and the Wikipedia footnote entered by a contributor describes the same in a newspaper article but it doesn't follow that this was the reason for the award.

All this talk of medals made me go back to my late parents photo album to try to identify the two medals my [late] grandmother was wearing. In the picture she looks austere and stoical and in black clothing. The photo is dated 1948. The medals appear to be The Mourning Liberty Cross, both with two swords and on a black ribbon. Two beloved sons sacrificed on the altar of fighting for the fatherland.

OK, so these are posthumous awards. Her husband and male sons (my uncles) all received veteran medals and Freedom of the City. Veterans are still revered, even though there are now very few of them left.

It would be disproportionate IMV to give the same medal to the type of situation described by the JAIC in 7.5.5 of their report. Of course, the Finnish helicopter and ship rescuers received medals for their heroism and courage in the annual President's awards on Independence Day, but that was a dozen or more of them, not just the one. It was team work.

Well, the same medal wasn't given for the 'type of situation'
For a start it was a Swedish decoration and wasn't a war medal.
It was awarded for one or more of the following: Extraordinarily personal courage which saved human lives, repeated dangerous efforts to save lives or for, extraordinary effort that in a decisive way benefited the Armed Forces, outstanding efforts that have benefited the Armed Forces.

Sweden has separate awards for wartime.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Hey Vixen, care to answer me yet? You've still failed to provide any examples of your claim about disinformation agents actually existing.

Remember, (because you apparently forgot what your claim was the last two times you responded) I want evidence that in the real world, a person publicly espouses a position they do not agree with in order to link that position to extremism. They would need to be espousing publicly both a non extremist belief and an extremist one (anti-Semitism, racism, AIDS denial, Islamic fundamentalism, something like that) in order to link the two.

I await your examples.

 

[Vixen]

By your new definition the aircrew shot down in the 50s shouldn't have been awarded the medal, they were not at war or in combat.


Like Svensson they were on duty when the actions leading to the award occurred.

It is the only medal available to be awarded for bravery in the Swedish military outside of a war.

It could have been silver. It could have been sans sword. It could have been awarded to the whole team.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Of course, the Finnish helicopter and ship rescuers received medals for their heroism and courage in the annual President's awards on Independence Day, but that was a dozen or more of them, not just the one. It was team work.

So a dozen Finns are deserving of their awards but a single Swede isn't?

 

[Steve]

This is why it is important for people to think for themselves instead of mindlessly accepting what they are told.

Vixen actually does appear to think for herself. It's just that many of her thoughts as posted here are rather unique, incomprehensible in any sort of logical context, and unsupported by any evidence. Vixen's unique thought process invariably begins with the premise that if an idea is supported by evidence and is accepted by consensus among persons who understand the topic, then it is very likely being used to cover up something nefarious.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Yes, because it is very similar to the account in JAIC, except the time in JAIC is much later.

The similarity of the story reported to the account in the JAIC report isn't evidence that Svensson personally talked to the press when he returned injured from his rescue flight.

You said a couple of times that the stuff about Y64 and Y74's rescue men "could only have come from their own mouths" but that view seems only to be based on your reading an edited quotation claimed to be lifted from Aftonbladet but published on somebody else's website.

Since both of those servicemen returned injured it seems unlikely to me they were pushed into some impromptu press conference. I'd like to know if there's any reliable record of what was said by whom and when.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

... The point is that Sweden was not averse to doing it.

You wish to use "Sweden was not averse to doing it" as support for your fantastical version of what Sweden did. Unfortunately the example you chose of Sweden "doing it" was actually of Sweden doing something different. So your claim is diluted to the rather weaker "Sweden is not averse to doing some things".

As a substitute for actual evidence, it's not entirely compelling.