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The Creation of Israel Violated the Palestinian Right to Self-Determination

ahhell said:
I sympathize with anyone fleeing persecution, I also sympathize with folks that are displaced by such migration.

This is not the Fault of the Jews or Israelis. This is the fault of the numerous countries the fled and England's mishandling of the mandate and transition.

Should we sympathize with Armenians after the Genocide, yes, should we have allowed them to settle somewhere out of control of the Turks, yes. Should we have allowed them to create an ethnostate somewhere where other people already existed, probably not. If they had done that, should we now decide they don't deserve a state anymore, probably not.

But, this is basically a useless question. Israel exists, so "what now?" is the only question that matters.
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You got Seven Million Jews in Israel, they don't want to migrate anywhere else.
It is a mess. I maintian the dumbest thing Israel every did was the settlement program.
 
Temporarily under heavy work load with the end of vacation but doing background preparation for summary statements on issues, leading to final recommendations seeming to fir best. Readers will be provided with text links when possible, but much will be as earlier, as YT links, but fewer videos with many text references in them. Meanwhile, humor.
 

Civil and religious rights of non-Jewish communities in Palestine​


"If, however, the strict terms of the Balfour Statement are adhered to ... it can hardly be doubted that the extreme Zionist Program must be greatly modified. For "a national home for the Jewish people" is not equivalent to making Palestine into a Jewish State; nor can the erection of such a Jewish State be accomplished without the gravest trespass upon the "civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine." The fact came out repeatedly in the Commission's conference with Jewish representatives, that the Zionists looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the present non-Jewish inhabitants of Palestine, by various forms of purchase." Report of the King–Crane Commission, August 1919

The declaration's first safeguard clause referred to protecting the civil and religious rights of non-Jews in Palestine. The clause had been drafted together with the second safeguard by Leo Amery in consultation with Lord Milner, with the intention to "go a reasonable distance to meeting the objectors, both Jewish and pro-Arab, without impairing the substance of the proposed declaration".

Arabs constituted around 90% of the population of Palestine, but – as stated by Ronald Storrs, Britain's Military Governor of Jerusalem between 1917 and 1920 – they were "not so much [named but] lumped together under the negative and humiliating definition of 'Non-Jewish Communities'". Additionally, there was no reference to protecting the political rights of this group, as there was regarding Jews in other countries. This lack of interest was frequently contrasted against the commitment to the Jewish community, with various terms used over subsequent years to regard the two obligations as linked. A heated question was whether the status of both groups had "equal weight", which the British government and the Permanent Mandates Commission held to be the case in the 1930 Passfield white paper.

Balfour stated in February 1919 that Palestine was considered an exceptional case in which, referring to the local population, "we deliberately and rightly decline to accept the principle of self-determination," although he considered that the policy provided self-determination to Jews. Avi Shlaim considers this the declaration's "greatest contradiction". This principle of self-determination had been declared on numerous occasions subsequent to the declaration – President Wilson's January 1918 Fourteen Points, McMahon's Declaration to the Seven in June 1918, the November 1918 Anglo-French Declaration, and the June 1919 Covenant of the League of Nations that had established the mandate system. In an August 1919 memo Balfour acknowledged the inconsistency among these statements, and further explained that the British had no intention of consulting the existing population of Palestine. The results of the ongoing American King–Crane Commission of Enquiry consultation of the local population – from which the British had withdrawn – were suppressed for three years until the report was leaked in 1922. Subsequent British governments have acknowledged this deficiency, in particular the 1939 committee led by the Lord Chancellor, Frederic Maugham, which concluded that the government had not been "free to dispose of Palestine without regard for the wishes and interests of the inhabitants of Palestine", and the April 2017 statement by British Foreign Office minister of state Baroness Anelay that the government acknowledged that "the Declaration should have called for the protection of political rights of the non-Jewish communities in Palestine, particularly their right to self-determination."
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- Wiki entry on the Balfour Declaration
Time period: Post WWI
Status: Palestine was 90% indigenous Arab. Not Jewish, Arab Palestinian. See also map of Palestine from 1881 posted in the Hamas thread.

(Were Czechoslovakians merely "Europeans" with no identity when Hitler invaded? No. Neither, then, can such an excuse be used to deny local inhabitants anywhere the right to self-determination. "Not Palestinians, only Arabs" is a profoundly ignorant statement afoul of history and law.)

It is undeniable that:
  • there was no incipient Jewish state existing at the time
  • thus, no Israeli nation with "a right to exist"
  • and no indigenous Jewish population with any legal right to self-determination
  • just a colonial enterprise in the works
  • backed by an occupying colonial power
  • acting outside its mandate
These facts are easily ignored in the active threads on the war in Gaza, which bloviate in endless fancy-free ignorance.

As for ISF, we see it is clearly part of the cabal of Western media seeking to suppress and deny free speech, as this, being the only thread that has consistently sought out and highlighted factual information on the Gaza conflict and the history of the region, is the only one moderated. The other threads that are or have been discussing the same topic are rife with historical falsehoods and bigotry, eschewing all fact by relying on denialism and see-no-evil monkey business, peppered with incessant claims that any factual information presented is "antisemitic".

My, my, my, such pretense. Typically, the above shall be ignored or frontally denied, never taken up in good faith. Understandable; Zionists have no solid ground to stand on.
 
lionking said:
Boring. None of this shambolic rambling will change the status quo in Israel.
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Nope. The Ultra Orthodox Kookites are doing that by their demands for ever greater Lebensraum combined with their demands to be supported by others, and their tolerance of political corruption when it suits them.
Hence the migration of the elite out of Israel.
 
No doubt some of the more rabid of supporters of Israel will claim that the refusal of Palestinians to leave the Gaza Strip is the result of Antisemitism.

Of course aside from the desire not to leave their homes one of the motives is that if they leave they will not be allowed back. After all look what happened in 1947-1948 in Palestine.

And that is a reasonable belief given many in Israel want to Ethnically cleanse out the Palestinians and this of course could be a trial run for Ethnically cleansing the West Bank. After all Palestinians a confined to a disjointed set of very crowded enclaves that are economically unsustainable so they could be offered to be helped to "voluntarily" go elsewhere.
 
The Tablet. Palestine was a misshapen idea from the beginning, engendered by an act of pure negation. The Arabs could have gone along with the U.N.’s partition plan like the Jews did, and chosen to build whatever version of Switzerland or Belgium on the eastern Med in 1948. Instead, they resoundingly chose war. That’s the storied “Nakba” at the core of the Palestinian legend—the catastrophe that drove the Arabs from their land and hung a key around the neck of a nation waiting to go home. The Arabs chose the catastrophe; they chose war, based on the premise that they would inevitably win and exterminate the Jews.
Yet despite repeated military failures, and the increasing distance between the first-world powerhouse that the Israelis built and their increasingly war-torn, third-world neighborhood, the global conscience was always predisposed to rebuilding what the Palestinians destroyed. Accordingly, the Palestinian Arabs became a tribe of feral children whose identity was carved out of the relentless vow to eliminate Israel and slaughter the Jews en masse—despite repeated failures, each one more crushing than the last.
Trump said, enough, we’re not rebuilding Gaza. Time for a new idea—the Gazans have to to go, they can try to start again somewhere else, in a land where every building still standing isn’t already wired to explode.
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This little screed, served up by a source oft listed by Google News, is representative of the rotten lies told by Zionists since forever. Lies that had me in the past admittedly thinking of Israelis as the permanent victims of the malice of others. It is time to put this propaganda in its place on a heap of rubbish.

Here is just a smattering of events from the historical timeline, a list of Zionist attacks leading to the Nakba:
  • Haifa 1937
  • Jerusalem 1937
  • Haifa 1938
  • Balad al-Sheikh 1939
  • Haifa 1939
  • Haifa 1947
  • Abbasiya 1947
  • Al-Khisas 1947
  • Bab al-Amud 1947
  • Jerusalem 1947
  • Sheikh Bureik 1947
  • Jaffa 1948
  • Deir Yassin 1948
Palestinian suffering is hardly self-inflicted. Palestinians, as a people, had every right to determine their own future and frontally reject the British Empire's imposition of an invasive occupier fully intended to replace them. Americans supporting Trump should agree, had they half a spine, as their bloviating worries over their southern border fall fully in line with the Palestinian desire not to be occupied and replaced (not that this is what US immigrants are actually doing).

Israelis apparently agree that Palestinian claims are lawful, as they do everything they can to destroy any records of Palestinian life prior to the imposition of a Jewish-only theocracy. When in the wrong, lie, distort and destroy. This is racist, land-thieving Zionism, genocidal by design and intent.
 
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Hlafordlaes said:
This little screed, served up by a source oft listed by Google News, is representative of the rotten lies told by Zionists since forever. Lies that had me in the past admittedly thinking of Israelis as the permanent victims of the malice of others. It is time to put this propaganda in its place on a heap of rubbish.

Here is just a smattering of events from the historical timeline, a list of Zionist attacks leading to the Nakba:
  • Haifa 1937
  • Jerusalem 1937
  • Haifa 1938
  • Balad al-Sheikh 1939
  • Haifa 1939
  • Haifa 1947
  • Abbasiya 1947
  • Al-Khisas 1947
  • Bab al-Amud 1947
  • Jerusalem 1947
  • Sheikh Bureik 1947
  • Jaffa 1948
  • Deir Yassin 1948
Palestinian suffering is hardly self-inflicted. Palestinians, as a people, had every right to determine their own future and frontally reject the British Empire's imposition of an invasive occupier fully intended to replace them. Americans supporting Trump should agree, had they half a spine, as their bloviating worries over their southern border fall fully in line with the Palestinian desire not to be occupied and replaced (not that this is what US immigrants are actually doing).

Israelis apparently agree that Palestinian claims are lawful, as they do everything they can to destroy any records of Palestinian life prior to the imposition of a Jewish-only theocracy. When in the wrong, lie, distort and destroy. This is racist, land-thieving Zionism, genocidal by design and intent.
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Both sides lie and commit deceit.

The Israelis lie about Palestinian history, the Muslims lie about Jewish history. Many Muslims refuse to accept that the Jewish temple used to exist on the Temple Mount, that a majority of Israeli Jews have non-Ashkenazi ancestry, that Jews continued to live in Palestine for thousands of years, that the majority of Jerusalem was Jewish by the 1880s, etc etc. Both sides lie, a pox on both of their houses.

But right now, today, it is Israel who is seeking to commit massive racist ethnic cleansing. A new Nakba of 2 million Palestinians. I wonder how Israelis and Jews will be viewed around the world if this takes place? Massive harrassment and hate speech? Probably. Attacks on synagogues and embassies? Possible. All Israeli tourists treated like garbage? Likely.

Economic and diplomatic boycotts of Israel? Hopefully.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
2 millions Palestinians in Gaza didn't want to be displaced, either.
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The 8 million Israeli Jews dont want to be displaced, the 2 million Arabs in Gaza dont want to be displaced.

But somehow its anti-semitic Nazism to talk about the Jews going elsewhere, but totally acceptable to talk about literally destroying all of Gaza and sending the 2 million Arabs to another country, permanently.

How did this racist double standard come about?
 
webfusion said:
Israelis are quite glad that we're clearing up that nasty mess in Aisle 8.

As for the topic of this thread -- MEH.
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lionking said:
Comparing Israel defending itself against a terrorist attack with the holocaust is disgraceful.
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You boys would be hilarious if not for the fact that there is indeed a genocide taking place.

BTW, you still haven't disputed that the IDF are picture-taking, video-enjoying buffux. You cannot, because for that, we have evidence. As we do of Israeli officials arguing in public that "anything goes" against Hamas, and that all Palestinians are Hamas (1+1=2; namely, a policy of genocide, sorry). And in this and other threads, we have their fangirls arguing that opposition to state policy, to war crimes on record, and to the ongoing mass starvation of Gazans is "support for Hamas".

Spoken like true Gestapo. Want me to start quoting from early Zionists? From accounts of their relations with the Nazis? Hmmm? No, you don't, as you would quite simply not be able to man up to the task of addressing the points made, as evidenced repeatedly in several threads.

Meanwhile, any apologies or retractions of the outright lies used to engender a disproportionate response to Oct 7? I won't repeat them, as they are heinous, as is the fact that your accusations regarding that day are both false of Hamas and true of the IDF. On record, boys, on record.

Who's your daddy? :unsure: Manhood is usually taught by example during childhood. Sorry you missed out. :cry1
 
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Hlafordlaes said:
You boys would be hilarious if not for the fact that there is indeed a genocide taking place.

BTW, you still haven't disputed that the IDF are picture-taking, video-enjoying buffux. You cannot, because for that, we have evidence. As we do of Israeli officials arguing in public that "anything goes" against Hamas, and that all Palestinians are Hamas (1+1=2; namely, a policy of genocide, sorry). And in this and other threads, we have their fangirls arguing that opposition to state policy, to war crimes on record, and to the ongoing mass starvation of Gazans is "support for Hamas".

Spoken like true Gestapo. Want me to start quoting from early Zionists? From accounts of their relations with the Nazis? Hmmm? No, you don't, as you would quite simply not be able to man up to the task of addressing the points made, as evidenced repeatedly in several threads.

Meanwhile, any apologies or retractions of the outright lies used to engender a disproportionate response to Oct 7? I won't repeat them, as they are heinous, as is the fact that your accusations regarding that day are both false of Hamas and true of the IDF. On record, boys, on record.

Who's your daddy? :unsure: Manhood is usually taught by example during childhood. Sorry you missed out. :cry1
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What has been happening in the (ever shrinking) West Bank and Gaza is nothing short of holocaust, at the moment on the level of Nikolayev rather than Auschwitz-Birkenau (though that will come if they're let).
 
In the past I would have objected to use of the term "Holocaust" to describe what is going on in Palestine as a gross and offensive exaggeration.

But now? Considering what has happened in Gaza and the very repeated and open desire to literally demolish the entire territory and kick all the Arabs out? I can no longer be on the side of those who seek to justify and defend the indefensible.
 
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