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The Creation of Israel Violated the Palestinian Right to Self-Determination

ahhell said:
I basically agree but none of that has any impact what I've been saying, or really on whether or not Israel has a right to exist.

The Israelite religion was indigenous to the area we now call Israel and Palestine. It is pretty clear that the people who would become jews were never in Egypt as slaves so the whole story of genesis is just myth. If the first temple existed, probably did, it was likely a temple of the polytheistic Canaanite religion for whom Yahweh was merely the chief of god of the Proto-Israelites. So, basically as different a religion from Judaism as Judaism is from Christianity.

Any rate, using the existence of the first and second temples as justification for the modern state of Israel is nonsensical, about as nonsensical as the denial that the Jews didn't originally come form the region around Jerusalem in the first place.
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The Jews and Jewish culture and religion does originate from the land of Israel, which is somewhat of a justification for building a Jewish State there. But of course it conflicts with the rights of people who had moved into the land and existed in 1948 who were not Jews.

However as I mentioned earlier if the Jews only wanted to build a state in parts of Palestine where it basically nobody existed I don't think anybody would have had an issue with it. Such as if the Jews decided to only build a state for themselves in the Negev desert.

Nobody then and nobody now would really complain about the Jews having a state in the Negev.
 
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Hercules56 said:
The Jews and Jewish culture and religion does originate from the land of Israel, which is somewhat of a justification for building a Jewish State there. But of course it conflicts with the rights of people who had moved into the land and existed in 1948 who were not Jews.

However as I mentioned earlier if the Jews only wanted to build a state in parts of Palestine where it basically nobody existed I don't think anybody would have had an issue with it. Such as if the Jews decided to only build a state for themselves in the Negev desert.

Nobody then and nobody now would really complain about the Jews having a state in the Negev.
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As stated above, agreed. I would now further add that the definition I gave for indigenous people now extends to later generation Israelis who now have no homeland to return to. Any displacement thereof would be as improper as what is happening to the Palestinians. That said, this does not establish that the land that should pertain to Israelis should be independent or the same size as now.

If a single state solution, then a secular state with majority rule which specifically bars political parties based on religious criteria would be best. Given recent history, however, I doubt that is possible. I would therefore advocate for the original 1948 partition, the right to return of all Palestinians, and full compensation for the lands comprising Israel to Palestine. Too many property deeds have been purposefully destroyed, so those claims that can be shown should be returned, and the entire rest of the land paid for as general compensation to Palestine. This brings property rights up to speed and to coincide with the sovereignty of Israel.

Because Israel would remain a uniquely undemocratic theocracy, strict adherence to the 1948 lines of partition should receive maximum support in terms of peacekeeping forces and limitations on the types of armament anyone in the region may stockpile or deploy. Otherwise, it would be rinse and repeat of the Nakba as soon as anyone relaxes their guard.
 
With respect to the observation that the creation of Israel violated Palestinian rights, and my claim that its justification is solely a religious one, let us hear from those writing about that justification. Of note is the close relation between maternal blood lines and the faith (tribalism).

I Just Discovered I’m Jewish! What do I do now?
Dear Jew,
Funny thing, nobody is ever shocked by the discovery that their mother is Korean. Funny thing, nobody is ever shocked by the discovery that their mother is Inuit.Or Slovakian. Or even Inuit—although that would be pretty interesting. On the other hand, suddenly discovering that you’re Muslim, Bahai or Buddhist is not even a possibility. Those are religions, and if you don’t believe, in what way are you a member? But it happens quite often that someone wakes up one day to discover, hey, I’m Jewish.

So there’s something unique in that. And I suppose that’s really what you’re asking: What’s unique about being a Jew that you can discover you are Jewish, not out of belief or affiliation, choice or inclination, upbringing or community? It's so strange: You can discover you are Jewish just because your mother one day says, “Guess what? I’m Jewish, so you are too.” (Of course, you’ll need some credible evidence that this is for real.) The answer is that we Jews are one big family, all brothers and sisters, all children of Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebecca, Jacob and Rachel and Leah. If your mother is Jewish, you’re part of that family. (If it’s your dad, but not your mother, or if it’s your mother’s father, but not her mother, see To the Child of a Jewish Father.)

And you’ll say, “Yes, but all of humanity is one big family.” So I’ll answer that Jews are a family held together with super glue. Divine super glue that lasts forever. We are eternally bonded by an eternal covenant and a common mission that our ancestors accepted at Mount Sinai.
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Divine super glue? Really? Sounds exactly like a self-serving tribal religion. Let us read on:

Almost 4,000 years have passed since Abraham, the first Jew, began to teach the world that G‑d cares for His world and its creatures. Over 3,300 years have passed since Abraham’s children entered into a covenant at Mount Sinai. Since then, the Jewish people have made an immeasurable impact on the way people think about themselves and about our world, igniting the human spark with ideas that were once radical and revolutionary but now are almost universally embraced. For example:
  • the notion of liberty (think Exodus), 1
  • a vision of world peace (think of the U.N. wall with the quotation from Isaiah, “. . . and they will beat their swords into plowshares”),
  • the sanctity of all human life without discrimination, 2
  • the right of the common man to his own property, 3
  • the need to educate every child, 4
  • equal rights for all before the law, 5
  • the supremacy of the law over the monarchy, 6
  • government-mandated social welfare, 7
  • tolerance of the foreigner who does not share your religion, 8
  • . . . and the concept of progress over time—one that leads to a world filled with an awareness of the divine “as water fills the ocean bed”—may that time arrive much sooner than we can imagine. 9
We brought these ideas to the world not by the sword and not by threat of force, but by example and by perseverance through the greatest hardships, so that they seeped through many streams and wellsprings into the beliefs of other peoples, until those peoples came to adopt them as their own.
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To that load of crock, we may now respond, with respect to facts on the ground in Israel/Palestine:
  1. Exodus is fully mythical; it never happened. FALSE.
  2. Discrimination is built in to the idea of a Jewish state. Sanctity claim is FALSE.
  3. The 1950 Absentee Property Law is land theft on a massive scale. Related claim is FALSE.
  4. The need to educate every child is falsified by the chest and head shots on Palestinian children. FALSE.
  5. Equal rights before the law.... Please stop. In the state of Israel, this is FALSE.
  6. Supremacy of [Jewish] law over monarchy [civil rule]. This is TRUE, and is therefore a threat to democratic governance
  7. Government mandated social welfare. FALSE. Gaza is being starved to death.
  8. Tolerance of the foreigner who does not share your religion. OMG, STFU! Not even tourists are safe in your apartheid regime.
  9. Progress over time... Bla, bla. Judaism, as practiced by Israelis, ignores all in favor of the 5 books of Moses. TOTAL BS!
Either Judaism is a sad joke, or Israel is fully apostate. To the latter, many devout Jews say "Indeed!" In either case, it seems clear that a tribal religion is doomed to being a bigoted affair from day one, unless the final claim, that of progress over time, is fundamental to scriptural interpretation, such that later prophets supersede and serve to amend earlier ones; e.g., Isaiah: "I desire mercy, not sacrifice."

Not even the Jesus myth, one of blood sacrifice, complies with Isaiah. WTF is going on here? My answer: Religious canon is ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊; the foundational claims underpinning the entire Zionist enterprise are all made of sand.
 
Pursuant to the above, we have the claims and statements being publicly made by Zionist Israelis. Though some readers may object to YT links, sometimes, as in this instance, it is the easiest way to access something published in Hebrew and then translated. No need to view more than a minute or less to get the gist, no need to agree with the YT author; the statements made by Moshe Feiglin, leader of libertarian Zionist party Zehut, are damning in and of themselves.

Every child is an enemy.*

*Judaism is therefore, and is openly admitted to be, a load of crock by this Zionist whack job.
 
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Gaza doctor receives charred bodies of her nine children while on duty​

Paediatrician Alaa al-Najjar was treating victims of Israeli attacks when her children were killed in a strike on their home
www.middleeasteye.net

Gaza doctor grieves her nine children killed in Israeli strike

Paediatrician Alaa al-Najjar was treating victims of Israeli attacks when her children were killed by an Israeli strike on their home
www.middleeasteye.net www.middleeasteye.net
 
Planigale said:

Gaza doctor receives charred bodies of her nine children while on duty​

Paediatrician Alaa al-Najjar was treating victims of Israeli attacks when her children were killed in a strike on their home
www.middleeasteye.net

Gaza doctor grieves her nine children killed in Israeli strike

Paediatrician Alaa al-Najjar was treating victims of Israeli attacks when her children were killed by an Israeli strike on their home
www.middleeasteye.net www.middleeasteye.net
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I posted another story from BBC about this in the other Gaza thread, then noticed this.

I can't even begin to imagine what this is like for her. But I'm sure her life will get back to normal, maybe even better*, webfusion assures her that it will!

* After all, even if there's no one left to treat as a doctor, she can always get a job at Trump Casino Gaza.
 
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I'd like to amend my prior support for a return to the original 1948 partition plan, as it was criminally lopsided. For the time, a 70-80% Palestinian portion and 20-30% Israeli portion would have been more appropriate. Given that the land is all Palestine, that would have been, and is, a wonderfully generous offer.
 
Hlafordlaes said:
I'd like to amend my prior support for a return to the original 1948 partition plan, as it was criminally lopsided. For the time, a 70-80% Palestinian portion and 20-30% Israeli portion would have been more appropriate. Given that the land is all Palestine, that would have been, and is, a wonderfully generous offer.
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Who are you negotiating with??
 
There are a number of reports, and the rhetoric of Netanjahu, Gantz and Smotrich seem to support the idea that the Israeli leadership expected the US to force Israel to stop after the month of bombing, and every month after that - Israel never had a plan to stop fighting, now or in the past, expecting and depending on Big Daddy to step in and sort things out. That way the warmongers have an offramp that doesn't hurt their credibility with their base.
Biden just letting them do whatever surprised them more than anyone else, probably.

They are reeling to figure out what to do with all the extra weapons and support and territory that they never expected to get.
 
We have to stop sugarcoating what Israel is doing, and has been doing for decades, in Palestine. It is holocaust plain and simple, the adherents of a German nationalist, far-right and ethno-supremacist ideology entering another gtoup's land and forcibly disposessing and genociding them because they are, to use a phrase, untermenschen. The quicker we acknowledge that what is happening now almost exactly mirrors what happened between 1933 and 1945 and stop it, the better.
 
Gulliver Foyle said:
We have to stop sugarcoating what Israel is doing, and has been doing for decades, in Palestine. It is holocaust plain and simple, the adherents of a German nationalist, far-right and ethno-supremacist ideology entering another gtoup's land and forcibly disposessing and genociding them because they are, to use a phrase, untermenschen. The quicker we acknowledge that what is happening now almost exactly mirrors what happened between 1933 and 1945 and stop it, the better.
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I dont know if you can call it a Holocaust.

Yes, Israel kicked out most Arabs and stole lots of their land.

But Israel's Arab population also grew from 200,000 to more than 1.5 million. This is not something that the Nazis would have ever allowed.

Analogy is better to Apartheid and Jim Crow. And the Soviet expulsions.

But in Gaza? Right now? That is a genocide.
 
Israel admits to smuggling weapons into Gaza.
www.israelnationalnews.com

Security official reveals how Israel assisted anti-Hamas clans in Gaza

A security official who took part in the operation revealed that Israel supplied arms, equipment, and money to Gazan elements as part of a secret operation aimed at weakening Hamas.
www.israelnationalnews.com www.israelnationalnews.com
So Israel has been smuggling arms into Gaza, I suspect that many will be diverted to fighting the occupation forces. Palestinians may not support Hamas, but that is very different from supporting a fascist government intent on your extermination.
 
Palestinians will just sell their weapons to Hamas for food.
If Israel wanted to undermine Hamas, it should send supplies to Palestinians it deems friendly.
Instead, they want excuses to continue fighting and blocking aid.
 
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The armed groups that were attacking and looting UN and NGO aid convoys and depots. Stealing aid and selling it on the black market, were not Hamas but groups armed and supported by Israel. In part to discredit and intimidate NGOs and their staff
 
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