The Creation of Israel Violated the Palestinian Right to Self-Determination

[Clutch Cargo]

The Creation of Israel Violated the Palestinian Right to Self-Determination​

Correct.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

All the articles say nothing about your anti-semitic baseless claim.

Um,

In an extraordinarily blunt final segment of the news magazine show, Pelley revealed that CBS’ parent company Paramount “began to supervise our content in new ways” as it tries to complete a merger with Skydance Media, with Pelley adding that Owens “felt he had lost the independence that honest journalism requires.”...

Pelley said that topics the show has pursued in its roughly 60-year history are “often controversial,” noting recent stories have included Israel’s war with Hamas in Gaza and the Trump administration.

‘60 Minutes’ Chief Resigns in Emotional Meeting: ‘The Company Is Done With Me’

Paramount’s controlling shareholder, Shari Redstone, is eager to secure the Trump administration’s approval for a multibillion-dollar sale of her company to Skydance, a company run by the son of the tech billionaire Larry Ellison...

Mr. Owens’s relationship with executives at CBS and Paramount frayed in recent months... Ms. Redstone complained to CBS executives in January about a “60 Minutes” segment on the war between Israel and Hamas, and a day later, the company appointed a veteran CBS producer, Susan Zirinsky, to a new role overseeing the news division’s journalistic standards.

AIPAC is not mentioned directly, but...

US election: How AIPAC shapes American politics

When it comes to fundraising, AIPAC mainly relies on a handful of super-wealthy billionaire donors, who under the American political system, are able to influence elections dramatically, Hixson explained...

“AIPAC is more closely affiliated with the Republican Party, especially Trump, because he simply gives Israel everything it wants, no questions asked,” he said. “They have leaned toward the Republicans more and more, but officially AIPAC is very careful to always point out they are nonpartisan and will support any candidate that’s pro-Israel … But there’s no question they would prefer Trump to win.”

“The most important thing to understand about AIPAC is that it essentially controls the US Congress...“They (AIPAC) will target any and all candidates who are critical of Israeli policy or in any way pro-Palestinian."

AIPAC has a “winning” percentage of roughly 90%, according to Hixson

AIPAC helped get Trump elected, therefore they are indirectly responsible for Bill Owens' decision to resign. I bet they are mighty pleased with this outcome that they had a hand in.

 

[Hercules56]

...AIPAC helped get Trump elected, therefore they are indirectly responsible for Bill Owens' decision to resign. I bet they are mighty pleased with this outcome that they had a hand in.

The logical flaws in this statement are immense.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

This video includes interesting images of Palestine prior to its invasion by forced mass immigration in the 1930s and 40s under an occupying imperial power, giving the lie to claims to that Palestine never existed. It also includes other interesting factual information, and concludes with examples of Jews denouncing Zionism, the movement responsible for the creation of the state of Israel using brutal terrorism. Worth watching as part of general background gathering if the reader has not had the occasion to look at other, longer sources. History is important. If "remember October 7" is important or relevant to events in Gaza, that can only be as part of a look at all of history. History shows that the creation of the state of Israel violated the right to self-determination of the legitimate, indigenous inhabitants of Palestine.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

The logical flaws in this statement are immense.

This thread was started to examine the real background of events and to portray them in a more honest light, characterizing events in their fullest historical context, and not a truncated, partial, Zionist narrative. The thread was moderated early on due to bickering and off-topic responses. During that time, any contributions toward the goal for which the thread was started were simply ignored by those debating in a non-factual manner in other, loosely supported threads. Now, the most active thread is under moderation for bickering.

I'd appreciate it if you would kindly put up or cease to post irrelevant, unsupported "zingers" in this thread, and instead dedicate your energies to the existing thread for those not able to address the points and/or conduct honest debate. If you wish to continue, please state a thesis and develop your points as befits honest debate.

There is a genocide in progress. A genocide. That fits into a broader picture of a changing geopolitical landscape shaped by wealth and power, not by the rule of law. The two go hand-in-hand, as the AI images Trump re-posted of himself on a glitzy Gaza beach with Netanyahu show. This is a time to be serious, as not only are the innocent dying, but their fate may very well be prelude. Make a stand, take a stand, and skip the banana peels.

 

[Hercules56]

This video includes interesting images of Palestine prior to its invasion by forced mass immigration in the 1930s and 40s under an occupying imperial power, giving the lie to claims to that Palestine never existed. It also includes other interesting factual information, and concludes with examples of Jews denouncing Zionism, the movement responsible for the creation of the state of Israel using brutal terrorism. Worth watching as part of general background gathering if the reader has not had the occasion to look at other, longer sources. History is important. If "remember October 7" is important or relevant to events in Gaza, that can only be as part of a look at all of history. History shows that the creation of the state of Israel violated the right to self-determination of the legitimate, indigenous inhabitants of Palestine.

Palestine, as an independent, unique country, indeed never existed.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

Here is a Holocaust survivor explaining his journey from Zionist supporter to its opponent, and why.

Palestine, as an independent, unique country, indeed never existed.

Irrelevant to the Palestinian right to self-determination, the topic of this thread.

 

[Planigale]

A well written article on the policy of rendering Gaza uninhabitable by the deliberate destruction of infrastructure and buildings. It is cheaper to flatten Gaza by bulldozer and demolition charges than by bombs. The policy has also been applied in southern Lebanon, and is being applied in the West bank. The object is ethnic cleansing.

‘Render it unusable’: Israel’s mission of total urban destruction

Bulldozers and explosives are flattening Gaza from the ground — what soldiers say is a systematic campaign to make the Strip unlivable.

www.972mag.com

 

[Planigale]

I saw soldiers on the street near where I live, and then I saw Majed come out and walk toward his grandfather’s and uncles’ house, which is in the same area. There was another person with him, and when they came out of the alley, they came across soldiers who were about 30 meters away, or maybe even less. Then, one of the soldiers fired a shot at them, and I think a fragment hit the guy who was with Majed. He ran back and disappeared.

One of the soldiers ordered Majed to stop in clear Arabic. Majed stopped where he was, about 25-30 meters from the soldiers. The Arabic-speaking soldier gestured for him to approach. When Majed was about 10 meters away, the soldier shot him in the leg, and he fell. The soldier went up to Majed, who was injured, and asked him more than three times, “Where is the gun? Where is the gun?” Majed kept answering, “I don’t know. I don’t have a gun.” The soldier asked where he had been going, and Majed said, “To my grandfather’s house.” The soldier accused him of lying and asked about the person who was with him.

The soldier then ordered Majed to undress, but Majed couldn’t remove his pants and told the soldier he couldn’t. The soldier replied, “Then I’ll shoot you.” Majed begged him not to shoot and managed to take off his shirt in the meantime. I heard another soldier telling the Arabic-speaking one, “Don’t shoot him, he’s just a kid.” But the Arabic-speaking soldier said, in Hebrew and Arabic, “He’s a terrorist,” and shot Majed once in the neck. Then, everything went silent.

I saw an ambulance coming, and the paramedics shouted to the soldiers in Hebrew, asking them to let them go to Majed and give him first aid. The soldiers didn’t let them near. I think one soldier even fired a shot in the air to scare them away.

Majed lay there for about half an hour. Then, a large bulldozer came and drove right up to his body. The driver tried to scoop Majed up for over seven minutes. He kept catching him by the pants, and then he would fall, until finally, his pants came off, and he was left naked. The bulldozer pushed the body against a wall to lift it. When it finally managed to lift him, half of Majed’s body was hanging outside the bucket, head down. It carried him about 50 meters, towards a fence, and then he fell again. The bulldozer picked him up again and drove to the wall. Majed’s head was between the bulldozer’s bucket and the wall when the bulldozer got close to the wall. It was a horrifying sight — a crime I’d never seen before. The body fell again, and the bulldozer picked it up, and pieces of concrete fell on it. Then the bulldozer drove through the camp neighborhoods with the body, followed by a military jeep. I think it was meant to scare people.

In the morning, after the military left the camp, I heard they dumped Majed’s body near a gas station, at least two kilometers from where he was killed.

https://www.btselem.org/video/20250428_israeli_troops_desecrating_palestinian_bodies_in_the_west_bank#full

That same day, an exchange of fire broke out in another part of the camp between Israeli forces and armed Palestinians. The military killed Yazan ‘Abdu (31), an al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigade operative, injured several others, and arrested some of them. The soldiers tied one of the wounded detainees, Dhaher Raddad (19), a Hamas military wing operative, to the hood of a military vehicle, which drove through the camp, using him as a human shield. Raddad died of his wounds in an Israeli hospital, in Israel Prison Service custody, about two days later.

Not the first time we have heard a report of Palestinians being tied to the front of IDF vehicles to act as human shields. It is also a mechanism of torture as the victims are left with burns on their back.

These are events in the occupied West Bank not in Gaza. Detainees are murdered, tortured, their bodies desecrated, displayed as trophies? Deterrents? This is how the most moral army in the world behaves when it is 'policing' the West Bank. Imagine how it behaves in Gaza where there is even less restraint.

 

[Planigale]

Far-right Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich yesterday called for the destruction of Bruqin and Kafr Ad-Dik near Salfit in the northern occupied West Bank, similar to the genocide in the Gaza Strip.

In a post on the X platform, Smotrich said, “Just as we destroyed the cities of Rafah, Khan Yunis, and Gaza in the Gaza Strip, we must destroy the dens of terror in Judea and Samaria” referring to the West Bank

At least 967 Palestinians have been killed and over 7,000 injured in attacks by the Israeli occupation army and illegal settlers in the occupied West Bank since the start of the war on Gaza in October 2023, according to official Palestinian figures.

In July 2024, the International Court of Justice declared Israel’s decades-long occupation of Palestinian land illegal and demanded the evacuation of all settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

Israeli settlers torch 15 Palestinian vehicles in occupied West Bank – Middle East Monitor

www.middleeastmonitor.com

The Israeli government is proud that it is deliberately destroying cities.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

Nice overview of the bad science around the Moses and Exodus myths. Apart from its patent falsehood as mythology, the total lack of historicity undermines all claims to a "promised land" upon which the idea of "Greater Israel" is founded, the basis for the violent, terror-prone Zionist invasion of Palestine. First myth, now simply malicious lies in service of brutal bloodshed. That's all there is, all there ever was.

 

[ahhell]

Nice overview of the bad science around the Moses and Exodus myths. Apart from its patent falsehood as mythology, the total lack of historicity undermines all claims to a "promised land" upon which the idea of "Greater Israel" is founded, the basis for the violent, terror-prone Zionist invasion of Palestine. First myth, now simply malicious lies in service of brutal bloodshed. That's all there is, all there ever was.

Can't argue with that, I mean the historical consensus that that Jews developed out of the local Levantine population instead of being an invading force from Egypt gives them much less historical claim.

 

[Hercules56]

Can't argue with that, I mean the historical consensus that that Jews developed out of the local Levantine population instead of being an invading force from Egypt gives them much less historical claim.

Well, it is a fact that the Jews had a country in the land for almost a thousand years, and then again starting around 300 BC until the Romans destroyed it in 135 AD. The Jews remained the majority population for several hundred years after. So for a very long time, the Jews were the natives of the land.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

Well, it is a fact that the Jews had a country in the land for almost a thousand years, and then again starting around 300 BC until the Romans destroyed it in 135 AD. The Jews remained the majority population for several hundred years after. So for a very long time, the Jews were the natives of the land.

For a time. Then they were not. Millennia passed. Too late; by 1900, neither resident nor native nor indigenous. Zero grounds to make any claims of any kind.

 

[Hercules56]

For a time. Then they were not. Millennia passed. Too late; by 1900, neither resident nor native nor indigenous. Zero grounds to make any claims of any kind.

I think its fair to claim that the Hebrew language, Jewish religion, the Torah and the Palestinian Talmud are indigenous to the land. Jerusalem obviously used to be a jewish city. As were many other cities in the land. There is no honest question as to whether the land used to be ancient Judea and Israel, the only issue is are the modern day people to be considered native & indigenous simply due to their jewish heritage. And obviously the answer is no. Most Jews do have some ancestry that comes from the general region, but those ancestors may have left and moved on 1,500 years ago or even earlier. The question is not if individual Jews have an individual right to be in the area, but if the Jews as a collective people have a collective right to rebuild their ancient nation there.

Its also worth mentioning that if Palestine had a very small or non-existent population when the Jews started to return in the late 1800s nobody would really question this right or its historical validity as it affected basically nobody else. Its because Zionism affected soo many other people who lived in Palestine that it is questioned.

If the Jews only chose to return to the basically uninhabited Negev dessert and make a country just there, nobody would care either, and people would say "yeah, sure, the jews have returned".

 

[Hlafordlaes]

I think its fair to claim that the Hebrew language, Jewish religion, the Torah and the Palestinian Talmud are indigenous... <snip>

No. Not the meaning of "indigenous". "Judaism is original to the region," more like it. As Ra is original to Egypt.

 

[Hercules56]

No. Not the meaning of "indigenous". "Judaism is original to the region," more like it. As Ra is original to Egypt.

Disagree. Judaism developed in Judea/Israel. They built their holy temple in Jerusalem where they believe Abraham made his sacrifice to God. Muslims accept this claim and the Dome of the Rock is centered over the Holy of Holies where Abraham did his thing. The Jewish prophets are buried all over the land, especially in Hebron where the last remaining Herodian structure remains basically intact.

 

[ahhell]

Disagree. Judaism developed in Judea/Israel. They built their holy temple in Jerusalem where they believe Abraham made his sacrifice to God. Muslims accept this claim and the Dome of the Rock is centered over the Holy of Holies where Abraham did his thing. The Jewish prophets are buried all over the land, especially in Hebron where the last remaining Herodian structure remains basically intact.

I'm going to be very annoying. I'm like 85% certain, the Samaritans are actually correct, the original temple was probably Mount Gerizim and not the temple mount. Jews are all a bunch of splitters.

ETA: And honestly, the only reason a responded to Hlafordlaes is because his post was basically an attempt to respond to an appeal to God with an Appeal to history. You know, appeal to non-existent authority with another appeal to authority.

 

[Hercules56]

I'm going to be very annoying. I'm like 85% certain, the Samaritans are actually correct, the original temple was probably Mount Gerizim and not the temple mount. Jews are all a bunch of splitters.

ETA: And honestly, the only reason a responded to Hlafordlaes is because his post was basically an attempt to respond to an appeal to God with an Appeal to history. You know, appeal to non-existent authority with another appeal to authority.

Mt Gerizim? Such a claim is so stupid it's almost not worth responding to.



The amount of historical evidence that points to the Temple mount in Jerusalem, is so overwhelming that it is ignorant absurdity to deny it. Along the lines of Holocaust denial, vaccine denial, 9-11 truthers.

And what do you mean "jews are a bunch of splitters"???? Is this some sort of bigoted attack against a group of people just to poison the thread?

And btw, the Samaritans do NOT believe there was ever a temple at Mt Gerizim.

Mount Gerizim Temple - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

While the Jerusalem Temple remains central to Jewish theology, liturgy and historical consciousness, the Mount Gerizim temple has vanished from Samaritan memory, with modern Samaritans rejecting its historical existence altogether and interpreting the ancient remains as administrative buildings or a sacrificial compound.

 

[ahhell]

Mt Gerizim? Such a claim is so stupid it's almost not worth responding to.



The amount of historical evidence that points to the Temple mount in Jerusalem, is so overwhelming that it is ignorant absurdity to deny it. Along the lines of Holocaust denial, vaccine denial, 9-11 truthers.

And what do you mean "jews are a bunch of splitters"???? Is this some sort of bigoted attack against a group of people just to poison the thread?
And btw, the Samaritans do NOT believe there was ever a temple at Mt Gerizim.

Mount Gerizim Temple - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

While the Jerusalem Temple remains central to Jewish theology, liturgy and historical consciousness, the Mount Gerizim temple has vanished from Samaritan memory, with modern Samaritans rejecting its historical existence altogether and interpreting the ancient remains as administrative buildings or a sacrificial compound.

Dude, calm down, the splitters thing is a reference to Monty Python's the Life of Brian and the fact that the Samaritans and Jews split over where the proper place for the temple is and who could be a priest. Thing is, the Samaritans never left the levant, the Jews on the other hand, at least their leadership were removed to babylon. How would those Yawhehists know where the original and proper location of the temple is any more than the folks that never left.

From the Wiki you claim says there was no temple at Mount Gerizim.

Archaeological excavations have revealed that the sanctuary on Mount Gerizim was constructed during the 5th century BCE,

There has been a temple there for millennia.

As to the highlighted bit, that is literally the biggest difference between the Jews and the Samaritans.

The most notable theological divide between Jewish and Samaritan doctrine concerns the world's holiest site, which the Jews believe is the Temple Mount in Jerusalem and which Samaritans believe is Mount Gerizim near modern Nablus and ancient Shechem.

Samaritans - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Samaritan | Definition, Religion, & Bible | Britannica

Samaritan, member of a community, now nearly extinct, that claims to be related by blood to those Israelites of ancient Samaria who were not deported by the Assyrian conquerors of the kingdom of Israel in 722 BCE. The community numbers about 800 individuals.

www.britannica.com

The Rabbis claim the Samaritans came from Mesopotamia during the Assyrian exile, the Samaritans claim they were natives that weren't conquered and exiled by the Assyrians. If the Samaritans are more likely the more original form of Yahweh worship.