The Creation of Israel Violated the Palestinian Right to Self-Determination

[ahhell]

Dude, calm down, the splitters thing is a reference to Monty Python's the Life of Brian and the fact that the Samaritans and Jews split over where the proper place for the temple is and who could be a priest. Thing is, the Samaritans never left the levant, the Jews on the other hand, at least their leadership were removed to babylon. How would those Yawhehists know where the original and proper location of the temple is any more than the folks that never left.

From the Wiki you claim says there was no temple at Mount Gerizim.


There has been a temple there for millennia.

As to the highlighted bit, that is literally the biggest difference between the Jews and the Samaritans.

Samaritans - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Samaritan | Definition, Religion, & Bible | Britannica

Samaritan, member of a community, now nearly extinct, that claims to be related by blood to those Israelites of ancient Samaria who were not deported by the Assyrian conquerors of the kingdom of Israel in 722 BCE. The community numbers about 800 individuals.

www.britannica.com

The Rabbis claim the Samaritans came from Mesopotamia during the Assyrian exile, the Samaritans claim they were natives that weren't conquered and exiled by the Assyrians. If the Samaritans are correct then they are more likely the legitimate form of Yahweh worship.

 

[Hercules56]

The temple was obviously in Jerusalem, why else is the Temple Mount and the Dome of the Rock there? For ◊◊◊◊◊ n giggles? Even the Samaritans dont believe the 1st Temple was at Mt Gerizim.

To deny the holyness of Jerusalem to the Jews is disgusting. Historical revisionism. And downright ignorant.

 

[ahhell]

Sure the Samaritans don't claim the Temple was located at Mount Gerizim, they just claim its the holy mountain of the Torah and there isn't any need for a Temple. I think the evidence supports the claim that the Samaritans Torah, form of worship, and Mt Gerizim being the original holy site of the Torah are probably correct. Unlike the Jews they never had an exile in Babylon, so are more likely to have maintained the religious and cultural traditions that existed prior to the exile.

All that being said, who cares, it's not like 2500 religious traditions should have any bearing on who gets to live in or govern any area. Well, I care, because its an interesting bit of historical trivia that I doubt most folks are aware of. Sure, Christians all know the parable of the good Samaritan but how many actually know what a Samaritan is or that they still exist.

 

[Hercules56]

Sure the Samaritans don't claim the Temple was located at Mount Gerizim, they just claim its the holy mountain of the Torah and there isn't any need for a Temple. I think the evidence supports the claim that the Samaritans Torah, form of worship, and Mt Gerizim being the original holy site of the Torah are probably correct. Unlike the Jews they never had an exile in Babylon, so are more likely to have maintained the religious and cultural traditions that existed prior to the exile.

All that being said, who cares, it's not like 2500 religious traditions should have any bearing on who gets to live in or govern any area. Well, I care, because its an interesting bit of historical trivia that I doubt most folks are aware of. Sure, Christians all know the parable of the good Samaritan but how many actually know what a Samaritan is or that they still exist.

The Jews AND Muslims believe the holy site of Abraham's sacrifice is under the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. Maybe 500 people believe otherwise. So yeah, 1 billion vs 500.

 

[Planigale]

The Jews AND Muslims believe the holy site of Abraham's sacrifice is under the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. Maybe 500 people believe otherwise. So yeah, 1 billion vs 500.

I am not sure historical facts are determined by popular vote.

Jerusalem is never explicitly mentioned in the Pentateuch and thus the Jewish identification of Jerusalem as the chosen place is created only through texts outside the Pentateuch, most prominently 1 Kings 8:16 // 2 Chronicles 6:5: ... Therefore, the Jewish identification of Jerusalem as the holy center of Israel is achieved only through paratexts to the Torah, even if later Jewish exegesis and theology further strengthened and elaborated this link. ...The Samaritan identification of Mount Garizim as the chosen place, on the other hand, is present in the Pentateuch, most prominently in its Samaritan version. Thus, within the Samaritan Pentateuch, the election of Mount Garizim as the holy center of Israel is part and parcel of the Torah itself, as opposed to the Jewish text. And on the basis of the narrative of the Pentateuch, as contained in the Samaritan version, the divine order to establish the center of Israel’s worship on Mount Garizim is part of the laws revealed on Mount Sinai...From a Samaritan perspective, Abraham’s altar was neither in Jerusalem nor in Mekka, as the Islamic tradition has it (cf. Sura 3:96–97), but on Mount Garizim. Therefore, Abraham’s words as recorded in the Qur’an can only relate to Mount Garizim...The central claim of Samaritan identity, as opposed to Judaism and Islam, can be corroborated from Qur’anic sources

So I would go with the view of YHWH! Unfortunately both Jews and Muslims have been misled.

Is a qibla a qibla? Samaritan Traditions About Mount Garizim in Contact and Contention

The emergence of Judaism is closely intertwined with the emergence of Samaritanism. Both are heirs of ancient Israelite traditions, and the predecessors of both shared the same religious and literary culture.

www.ias.edu

 

[Hercules56]

I am not sure historical facts are determined by popular vote.


So I would go with the view of YHWH! Unfortunately both Jews and Muslims have been misled.

Is a qibla a qibla? Samaritan Traditions About Mount Garizim in Contact and Contention

The emergence of Judaism is closely intertwined with the emergence of Samaritanism. Both are heirs of ancient Israelite traditions, and the predecessors of both shared the same religious and literary culture.

www.ias.edu

All the historical and archaeological evidence points to the Temple Mount in Jerusalem being the site of both Jewish temples. Please stop playing games with your stupid and offensive "Temple Denial".

 

[ahhell]

All the historical and archaeological evidence points to the Temple Mount in Jerusalem being the site of both Jewish temples. Please stop playing games with your stupid and offensive "Temple Denial".

If that's what I said to begin with, I was wrong. The Samaritans don't claim that Mt Gerizim is the site of the Temple of David, just the original holy site of Yahweh. History, archeology, and genetics show that to be a strong possibility. This isn't temple denial at all. Almost nobody who isn't a Palestinian Muslim denies the Jewish presence in the levant for the last 2500+ years.

I think it is silly to deny possibility that the Samaritans may be right, I think likely so, but I admit that is debatabe, being about events from 2500+ years ago with only highly biased sources. The fact that the Samaritans were never exiled suggests that the Samaritan version of Yahwism is likely closer to the form that existed prior to the schism between Samaritans and Jews though.

Even if the Temple of David was built on the Temple Mount, that says nothing about where the original holy site of Yahweh and Abrahams altar was.

 

[Hercules56]

If that's what I said to begin with, I was wrong. The Samaritans don't claim that Mt Gerizim is the site of the Temple of David, just the original holy site of Yahweh. History, archeology, and genetics show that to be a strong possibility. This isn't temple denial at all. Almost nobody who isn't a Palestinian Muslim denies the Jewish presence in the levant for the last 2500+ years.

I think it is silly to deny possibility that the Samaritans may be right, I think likely so, but I admit that is debatabe, being about events from 2500+ years ago with only highly biased sources. The fact that the Samaritans were never exiled suggests that the Samaritan version of Yahwism is likely closer to the form that existed prior to the schism between Samaritans and Jews though.

Even if the Temple of David was built on the Temple Mount, that says nothing about where the original holy site of Yahweh and Abrahams altar was.

No logical reason to think the Samaritans are right and the Jews, Muslims and Christians are wrong.

Both temples were in Jerusalem, this is not disputed except by Muslim bigots who know nothing of history.

 

[ahhell]

No logical reason to think the Samaritans are right and the Jews, Muslims and Christians are wrong.

Both temples were in Jerusalem, this is not disputed except by Muslim bigots who know nothing of history.

Sure there is, First, we can rule out the Christian and Muslim opinion on this all together as they just inherited their ideas on the matter from Judaism.

So that leaves the competing stories by the Samaritans and the Jews.

The historical consensus is:
The Israelites practiced the ancient Canaanite polytheistic religion, the same religion as just about everyone else in the Levant. Lots of those Canaanite city states had patron dieties that they worshiped a bit more than the other. Eventually Israel and Judah, who's patron was Yahweh, took that to the extreme of monolatry and finally monotheism. At some point between 3000 and about 2500 years ago the Samaritans and Jews disagreed over where the center of worship of Yahweh should be.

With that story alone there would be no reason to think that either was more likely to be correct. The thing is, most of the Jewish leadership was exiled to Babylon around 600BC but the Samaritan leadership was not. The Samaritans did not have same discontinuity in their relgious practice that the Jews had. Which would make it more likely that they retained more aspects of the original Yahwist monotheistic traditions intact.

Also:

Samaritan Pentateuch - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In 1946, the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered, which include the oldest known versions of the Torah. In Deuteronomy 27:4–7, the Dead Sea scroll fragments bring "Gerizim" instead of "Ebal", indicating that the Samaritan version was likely the original reading.

Also, there is no direct evidence that the first temple actually existed. Scholarly consensus is that it did but there's less evidence outside the bible for the first temple than there is for Jesus. But for the record, I'm not arguing that the Jews didn't build a Temple on the Temple mount more than 2500 years ago, I'm arguing they built it in the wrong place.

 

[Hercules56]

...Also, there is no direct evidence that the first temple actually existed. Scholarly consensus is that it did but there's less evidence outside the bible for the first temple than there is for Jesus. But for the record, I'm not arguing that the Jews didn't build a Temple on the Temple mount more than 2500 years ago, I'm arguing they built it in the wrong place.

The only basis for your claim that the Jews built the 1st and 2nd temple in the "wrong" place, is that the Samaritans never went into exile. So they should know better.

Got anything else?

 

[ahhell]

The only basis for your claim that the Jews built the 1st and 2nd temple in the "wrong" place, is that the Samaritans never went into exile. So they should know better.

Got anything else?

That's enough to give it at least 51% to the Samaritans but:

Also:

Samaritan Pentateuch - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The oldest known version of the Torah found with the Dead Sea Scrolls matches the Samaritan story which is that they were commanded to build an altar on Mount Gerizim not the Jewish version.

ETA: Now, slightly different Holy site than the Temple Mount. According to the Samaritans, God commanded the Israelites to build an alter on Mount Gerizim and later Commanded Isaac to be sacrificed at mount Gerizim. The Jews say, God commanded the Israelites to build an alter on Mount Ebal and later commanded Isaac to be sacrifice at the temple mount. Regardless, the Samarian Torah seems to be closer to the oldest known written versions of the Torah than the Jewish Torah.

 

[Hercules56]

That's enough to give it at least 51% to the Samaritans but:

The oldest known version of the Torah found with the Dead Sea Scrolls matches the Samaritan story which is that they were commanded to build an altar on Mount Gerizim not the Jewish version.

Cool.

Moriah - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Regardless, the two temples of Israel and Judea were built in Jerusalem, not Mt Gerizim. Only idiots and bigots like Arafat and other Islamists think that the first Solomon Temple was at Mount Gerizim.

I can think of no honest reason why the Jews would build the second temple miles and miles away from where the first temple stood.

Temple denial - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[ahhell]

Because they didn't actually know were the first was when they came back from exile, or they built it in the wrong place to begin with, or the Jews built a temple on the Temple mount and the Samaritans built one on Mount Gerizim at roughly the same time then began fighting about which was the authentic one.

To be clear, the current Samaritan take is that there shouldn't be a Temple at all, so the mistake the Jews made 3000 years ago was building the Temple in the first place. Well, after the Jews started worshiping Yahweh on the wrong mountain that is. So, the second mistake they made was building a temple.

 

[Hercules56]

Because they didn't actually know were the first was when they came back from exile, or they built it in the wrong place to begin with, or the Jews built a temple on the Temple mount and the Samaritans built one on Mount Gerizim at roughly the same time then began fighting about which was the authentic one.

To be clear, the current Samaritan take is that there shouldn't be a Temple at all, so the mistake the Jews made 3000 years ago was building the Temple in the first place. Well, after the Jews started worshiping Yahweh on the wrong mountain that is. So, the second mistake they made was building a temple.

You must think the Jews are pretty stupid to have built the second temple in literally the wrong City.

Why do you think they chose Jerusalem rather than the correct City?

 

[ahhell]

You must think the Samaritans are pretty stupid then, why do you think they think they shouldn't build a temple on Mount Gerezim instead of Jerusalem?

I gave a list of possibilities for why either the first or second temple might have been built in the wrong spot. But I'll go with the first was correct and the second was wrong. The Temple was destroyed and the Israelite literati were held in exile for 50ish years. How can you guarantee that a generation or two later the returnees knew where the original holy site was?

Could also be that before the exile there were dozens of similarly equivalent holy sites and when they came back they insisted on the one and only the Samaritans resisted the change. Could be a million reasons, it was a society with 1% literacy 2500 years ago.

ETA: Could have just been a spelling error. The difference between the Torahs appears to be two very similar words. Grandpa tells you he's from Vicksville in middle of nowhweresvania. You get there and find Vikesville and Fickville, who knows.

 

[Hercules56]

Most historians agree that the first and second temples were in Jerusalem. That is good enough for me.

There is definitely more evidence that the second temple was in Jerusalem, than Muhammad taking his night journey from Jerusalem and going to heaven and hanging out with Moses.

 

[Hercules56]

We KNOW for 100% fact, that the 2nd Jewish Temple was at the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Even the Muslims acknowledged this until the conflict with Israel began.

The 1st temple? Probably around the same place. But we KNOW for a fact the 2nd was there.

Did Muhammed's miraculous Night Journey to heaven take place there with the magic donkey? Its doubtful.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

Disagree. Judaism developed in Judea/Israel. They built their holy temple in Jerusalem where they believe Abraham made his sacrifice to God. Muslims accept this claim and the Dome of the Rock is centered over the Holy of Holies where Abraham did his thing. The Jewish prophets are buried all over the land, especially in Hebron where the last remaining Herodian structure remains basically intact.

That is completely irrelevant. It has no relation to the legal status of peoples inhabiting the land in a continuous manner extending to contemporary history. That is what is required to be legally indigenous to a given geography. And that is the beginning, middle and end of that story. Israelis are not indigenous to Palestine, Palestinians are.

Here's a legal scholar clarifying the issue.

The fact remains, as in my original claim: The Israeli claim to Palestinian land violates the Palestinian's fully grounded legal right to self-determination under international law.

There is no Israeli claim to the land of Palestine that is not based on religious canon (and thereby invalid), as you yourself are now forced to recur to it, lacking any other foundation. Epic fail, it's a non-starter. Or do you support ISIS claims to all of the lands under the last Caliphate? Chinese claims to Tibet? Celtic claims to Ankara, Turkey, the city they founded? Let's not be silly.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

No American should make the argument that History bestows any property rights.

 

[ahhell]

We KNOW for 100% fact, that the 2nd Jewish Temple was at the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Even the Muslims acknowledged this until the conflict with Israel began.

The 1st temple? Probably around the same place. But we KNOW for a fact the 2nd was there.

Did Muhammed's miraculous Night Journey to heaven take place there with the magic donkey? Its doubtful.

I basically agree but none of that has any impact what I've been saying, or really on whether or not Israel has a right to exist.

The Israelite religion was indigenous to the area we now call Israel and Palestine. It is pretty clear that the people who would become jews were never in Egypt as slaves so the whole story of genesis is just myth. If the first temple existed, probably did, it was likely a temple of the polytheistic Canaanite religion for whom Yahweh was merely the chief of god of the Proto-Israelites. So, basically as different a religion from Judaism as Judaism is from Christianity.

Any rate, using the existence of the first and second temples as justification for the modern state of Israel is nonsensical, about as nonsensical as the denial that the Jews didn't originally come form the region around Jerusalem in the first place.