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Spanking children doesn't work.

Dr. Keith said:
Why not both?
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I don't know.

I can only go by my own experiences but a smack was painful, but over with fairly quickly, and I didn't want another.

Kind of think the later is worse. Especially if yelling at them is also involved.

Yell then shun
 
cullennz said:
So giving a kid quick sharp slap to the bum is worse than mentally and emotionally abusing them by shunning?
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Well...while a sharp slap to the bum might create a situation where the child is more agreeable to listen and be disciplined, I can't imagine that "Shunning" in any real way can help discipline a child - just the opposite, in fact. I mean, "Discipline" requires interaction!
 
Dr. Keith said:
Some of the nastiest kids I have ever seen have been raised by "pro spanking" parents.

Of course, the parents of these kids usually have no alternative means of disciplining/guiding these children and are invariably afraid to interact with them.
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Are you saying that ALL parents who might smack their kids are like this or are you just being ridiculous?
 
psionl0 said:
Are you saying that ALL parents who might smack their kids are like this or are you just being ridiculous?
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I think you missed what he's referring to. He copy&pasted someone's else's anecdote and switched pro/anti.
 
Dr. Keith said:
I've never seen any study demonstrate that parents who spank and refrain from physical abuse have better child discipline outcomes than parents who do not spank.
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My .02. Not feeling any pain would seem to be a good thing as a human. But not feeling pain can also be very detrimental to our overall health and well being.
 
mumblethrax said:
How does spanking model good behavior? In the best case it hopes to encourage good behavior, but it models aggression, as far as I can tell.

The distinction between 'discipline' and 'punishment' strikes me as unsustainable, since discipline (in this sense) entails punishment. Hell, 'disciplinary action' is a euphemism for punishment. Then again, euphemism might be the goal here.
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Discipline as a noun, a trait, is very different from punishment and a general positive quality.

'Discipline' to mean spanking seems to be a straight euphemism for punishment.
 
Down in the South, there's a a large part of the poor White and Black community that think spanking is the primary answer to all discipline issues. I guess they feel that if a little spanking works very well, then a whole lot will be even better! Dumbass crackers.

And these people don't even see that by using 'spanking" as a primary discipline too (and totally neglecting any real discipline), they are hampering the moral development of their children - which remains very concrete bound: kids grow up unable to morally reason out a problem on their own. So yeah...applied like this, spanking is very, very bad.

This is the harm I see from spanking as a primary tool.
 
Fudbucker said:
Whenever I talk to parents about this, I always tell them, "I can control your kid plus 30 others for over 7 hours a day without hitting them. You don't need to spank".
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How do you know how well your techniques would work with someone else's child?

Dr. Keith said:
Then that should be easy to study and such studies should show that. But the only study presented so far said that is was better than some non-spanking strategy but not all.
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Still a bit inconclusive.

angrysoba said:
Okay, I'll grant that studies on every permutation of spanking have not been conducted and in truth it is always impossible to rule out every confounding factor.
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I'm not asking for every permutation, mind you. But comparing _occasional_ spankings would have been crucial, in my opinion.

But in your specific case how was spanking effective?
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I learned that there are consequences to your actions. Getting told "no" is one thing, but I had taken things too far, and that was the penalty. To be clear: the spanking didn't wound me physically, but it was humbling, which was the whole point.
 
quixotecoyote said:
Discipline as a noun, a trait, is very different from punishment and a general positive quality.

'Discipline' to mean spanking seems to be a straight euphemism for punishment.
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true.

For example, when I have dinner with the family, I take great care to use my best table manners and to make sure the kids do, too. And, any chance I get to find a reason to complement a child's manners and thoughtfulness, I do it. For example, "Thank you Johnny for passing Grandma her Beer". (joking) Anyways...this is discipline...and it teaches the child to be aware of the needs of others! And, once a child is aware that others have feelings, and needs, they are most of the way there to learning how to be moral people.
 
quixotecoyote said:
Which is why I wrote the second sentence of my post.
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Right, I just want to clarify that it isn't only the verb that implies punishment. A state of discipline implies punishment, too.

In any case, anyway who tries to argue that spanking isn't punishment gets the side-eye from me.
 
Argumemnon said:
How do you know how well your techniques would work with someone else's child?
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Because I have their kid in my class for about 8 hours a day, and I manage to keep them under control using my classroom management techniques.

That being said, after teaching for 16 years, you become pretty expert on effective non-corporal punishment, so it's expecting a lot out of parents to be as good at discipline as a teacher who's been doing it for a long time. I was spanked a couple of times, when I was doing something that could have got me killed. It didn't warp me.
 
Argumemnon said:
Again, it really depends on the child, the punishment, the situation. I don't think one can say that physical punishment works or doesn't work, full stop. It works sometimes, with some children.

Aversion to pain and punishment is one thing, but with moderation.
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Argumen I generally agree with you. I went to a school where the teacher would bend your hand the wrong way and then smack it with a paddle etc. I noticed that spanking was less offensive if the teacher wasn't doing it out of anger. Problem was the teacher would show great anger and agitation. If someone could spank like you might imagine Sheriff Andy Taylor....
 
Argumemnon said:
I learned that there are consequences to your actions. Getting told "no" is one thing, but I had taken things too far, and that was the penalty. To be clear: the spanking didn't wound me physically, but it was humbling, which was the whole point.
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I remember the time I popped my nephew's boy (3 years) quite hard on the keester. The kid was hellbent on getting near a very dangerous Bull (just cause he's so huge - 2000 lb) despite telling him to stay away several times.

Of course, the kid probably thought I was just being a meanie for popping him, and I really didn't care - I was just scared he would get hurt, and relieved that I had caught him before he got too close. So, yeah...I guess he saw it as nothing but a "Penalty" from a capricious uncle, and I saw it as something quite different. And his father saw it as a job well done.

Later on when the boy cooled down, we took great pains to explain why Big Bulls are so dangerous - just like Big Cars and Trucks. I don't know if the lesson stuck, but I hope it did.
 
Fudbucker said:
Because I have their kid in my class for about 8 hours a day, and I manage to keep them under control using my classroom management techniques.

That being said, after teaching for 16 years, you become pretty expert on effective non-corporal punishment, so it's expecting a lot out of parents to be as good at discipline as a teacher who's been doing it for a long time. I was spanked a couple of times, when I was doing something that could have got me killed. It didn't warp me.
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Then you teach white-bread children.

I've taught white-bread children, It's easy, and it's why jobs in white-bread schools are so hard to find - because teachers there know how well they've got it.

On the other hand, I'd like to see how well you'd do with a classroom of poor blacks and latinos backed by nothing but an equally screwed up and infantalized Administrative Staff. You know...the typical poor, minority American School.
 
Jules Galen said:
Then you teach white-bread children.

I've taught white-bread children, It's easy, and it's why jobs in white-bread schools are so hard to find - because teachers there know how well they've got it.

On the other hand, I'd like to see how well you'd do with a classroom of poor blacks and latinos backed by nothing but an equally screwed up and infantalized Administrative Staff. You know...the typical poor, minority American School.
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I have 3 white kids in my class. My school is 90% free-and-reduced lunch. It's an inner-city school.
 
I just had a thought.

spanking children doesn't work
not spanking children doesn't work.

Need a kobyashi maru thing here to break the deadlock.
 
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