Spanking children doesn't work.

[Belz...]

Like homeopathy or prayer, right?

No, actually. What were you trying to achieve with that?

When it works it works, trust me I've seen it work. But these damn scientific studies never seem to see how well it works.

The studies so far compare _very_ frequent punishment with no punishment at all. It's almost as if they're trying to prove a perconceived notion.

Yes, battery with moderation. It works for the wife, why not the kids.

That sounds like an appeal to emotion.

Look at it this way: radiation is bad, right? No, not necessarily. In small quantities it may actually strengthen the immune system, among other things. This is just one example of how sometimes, something is true in one context or in one quantity, and not true in another.

It's like saying that hardship is bad. Yes. Hardship is bad. But a little hardship builds character, too.

Based on admitedly anecdotal evidence, I'd guess that physical punishment is like that, too. Dismissing that entirely because one is uncomfortable with the idea is irrational.

 

[AdamSK]

I've never seen any study demonstrate that parents who spank and refrain from physical abuse have worse child discipline outcomes than parents who do not spank.

Obviously there's a positive correlation between spanking and physical abuse; studies don't separate out the abusers from the non-abusers when evaluating the apparent "effects of spanking."

So, the studies are still crap. As much crap as studies showing that marijuana use is linked to violent crime because the studies refuse to separate those using marijuana alone from those using marijuana and harder drugs.

 

[fuelair]

As to spanking and related, it can cause lack of respect and care for the spanker. Following the rules when you have to to protect yourself from such does not equal love and caring later. For/towards those who do the punishing.
I have noted this before here, it does not change.

 

[Crossbow]

A bit of a "well duh" but here's more research that shows that corporal punishment of children is a bad idea.
The study reviews more than fifty years of research, covering more than 160,000 children and demonstrates conclusively that physical punishment of children is ineffective but can lead to significant problems, from mental health issues to increased aggression.



So the Pope, Focus on the Family, and >80% of USAians, are wrong. Leave spanking to consenting adults.


Study: Spanking and Child Outcomes: Old Controversies and New Meta-Analyses.
Press Release.

Amen!

Spanking should only be exercised among consenting adults.

 

[Belz...]

As to spanking and related, it can cause lack of respect and care for the spanker. Following the rules when you have to to protect yourself from such does not equal love and caring later. For/towards those who do the punishing.
I have noted this before here, it does not change.

You've noted it but is there any reason to believe that it's true?

For what it's worth, lack of proper discipline does lead to a lack of respect toward the parent.

 

[Dr. Keith]

No, actually. What were you trying to achieve with that?

The studies so far compare _very_ frequent punishment with no punishment at all. It's almost as if they're trying to prove a perconceived notion.

Studies show homeopathy doesn't work and yet you will find similar arguments dismissing the studies. Ditto prayer. Having never made much headway in that regard I've learned that the burden is not on me to show a prescribed course is ineffective, it is on the proponent to show the prescribed course is effective.

Find me a study that shows that spanking, as you would support it, is more effective than not spanking.

Until then, I see no reason to advocate for physical violence against the smallest of us.

That sounds like an appeal to emotion.

No, it is pointing out that spanking needs special pleading to be acceptable.

Look at it this way: radiation is bad, right? No, not necessarily. In small quantities it may actually strengthen the immune system, among other things. This is just one example of how sometimes, something is true in one context or in one quantity, and not true in another.

It's like saying that hardship is bad. Yes. Hardship is bad. But a little hardship builds character, too.

Based on admitedly anecdotal evidence, I'd guess that physical punishment is like that, too. Dismissing that entirely because one is uncomfortable with the idea is irrational.

Under that rationale it would be OK for me to slap my wife occasionally when she requires punishment, so long as I didn't over do it. Unless you want to employ some special pleading.

 

[Dr. Keith]

I've never seen any study demonstrate that parents who spank and refrain from physical abuse have worse child discipline outcomes than parents who do not spank.

I've never seen any study demonstrate that parents who spank and refrain from physical abuse have better child discipline outcomes than parents who do not spank.

 

[Dr. Keith]

You've noted it but is there any reason to believe that it's true?

Did you even read the summary of the study above?

For what it's worth, lack of proper discipline does lead to a lack of respect toward the parent.

Agreed. But, proper discipline does not require physically spanking the child.

 

[Belz...]

Studies show homeopathy doesn't work and yet you will find similar arguments dismissing the studies.

No you don't. See below.

Find me a study that shows that spanking, as you would support it, is more effective than not spanking.

They'd have to make one, first.

Under that rationale it would be OK for me to slap my wife occasionally when she requires punishment, so long as I didn't over do it. Unless you want to employ some special pleading.

You're not listening. No one's saying that we SHOULD or that it's GOOD. I'm saying that a lot of things are counter-intuitive, and some things are more complex than a simple answer. The studies so far have compared two extremes but are notable for ignoring any sort of middle ground, somehow assuming that the middle ground must produce middle-ground harm. I'm saying that the conclusion is unwarranted. Don't take this to mean something that it doesn't mean.

 

[AdamSK]

I've never seen any study demonstrate that parents who spank and refrain from physical abuse have better child discipline outcomes than parents who do not spank.

Here's one:

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10567-005-2340-z

The results indicated that effect sizes significantly favored conditional spanking over 10 of 13 alternative disciplinary tactics for reducing child noncompliance or antisocial behavior. Customary physical punishment yielded effect sizes equal to alternative tactics, except for one large study favoring physical punishment. Only overly severe or predominant use of physical punishment compared unfavorably with alternative disciplinary tactics.

 

[Belz...]

Here's one:

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10567-005-2340-z

From the link, also:

The discussion highlights the need for better discriminations between effective and counterproductive use of disciplinary punishment in general.

Which is exactly what I've been saying.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Here's one:

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10567-005-2340-z

I'm not reading that meet my criteria.

Maybe I would have to see the whole study, but the summary seems to say that conditional spanking was worse than at least three alternative methods of discipline and that only one study favored customary spanking, something Argumemnon seems to be against.

I'd hardly call that as a strong indication that the prescribed method is better. I'd say it comes down along the lines of comparable, at best. So, you can hit your kid and get comparable results. Well, so long as you get to hit the kid lets call that a win!

And I'm not able to see what impact they were measuring. Compliance? If all I want is compliance why would I have child, dogs are much easier to train.

 

[Dr. Keith]

You're not listening. No one's saying that we SHOULD or that it's GOOD.

You know me well enough to know that is always a possibility. I'm always looking for what is best when it comes to kids, so my error in reading more into your statements than was warranted.

 

[Belz...]

You know me well enough to know that is always a possibility. I'm always looking for what is best when it comes to kids, so my error in reading more into your statements than was warranted.

No problem. I just want to keep an open mind. Also, my experience with kids that didn't have any sort of discipline may factor into this.

 

[Dr. Keith]

No problem. I just want to keep an open mind. Also, my experience with kids that didn't have any sort of discipline may factor into this.

Child discipline is not easy. My experience is that spanking is not a good substitute.

 

[3point14]

And I'm not able to see what impact they were measuring. Compliance? If all I want is compliance why would I have child, dogs are much easier to train.

No, you definitely want compliance from your child. Not all the time, perhaps but 'don't run out into the road' requires compliance, as does 'don't stick your hand in the fire' If you can't get your child to comply with these, they end up damaged.

 

[Belz...]

Child discipline is not easy. My experience is that spanking is not a good substitute.

Well, my own experience with spanking is limited to a single event, so I can't speak with any authority. I can only say that different children may require different forms of discipline. Of course, there is a limit to acceptable punishment. The question is, where?

 

[Dr. Keith]

No, you definitely want compliance from your child. Not all the time, perhaps but 'don't run out into the road' requires compliance, as does 'don't stick your hand in the fire' If you can't get your child to comply with these, they end up damaged.

Compliance alone is not successful child discipline.

 

[Tony99]

What? Is that number accurate-ish or hyperbole?

It's not just us USAians that are slap happy...


"As many as 80 percent of parents around the world spank their children, according to a 2014 UNICEF report."

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/04/160425143106.htm

 

[Belz...]

Compliance alone is not successful child discipline.

No, but in specific instances it might have to do.