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Philosophical conceptions of the self and cognitive science

Hmm. You prefer "Is Isn't"?

LOL. May so. mu


The narrative self is a fiction. Apart from that, I don't understand the question.
Agreeing that narrative selves are fiction, my question addresses the requisite complexity of a perceived-as-physical existent before that fiction occurs. Now we enter the realm of Time, perhaps?
 
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No, I wouldn't describe it as "a feeling of continuity". It is more fundamental than that.

LOL, now the man talks exactly like I do, yet, has the guts to be angry at me! of insulting me! Wow, Im perplexed. Unless, yes! thats it! He was expressing his admiration, but wanted all the glory for himself! without shadows following his steps!

Im delighted. :D

Seriously Geoff. Nice work. Completely irrelevant for anyone, but thats another matter.
 
Chris: "I think therefore I am" can only refer to this instant in time.

Geoff: Why? I don't see any reason why this follows.
Because the "thinking" that Descartes assumed he could be absolutely certain he was engaged in was the thinking at that moment. He knew that at the very instant that he questioned whether he was thinking he was, indeed, thinking.

Chris: We can't say "I thought therefore I was".

Geoff: Why not? Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
The idea that we have been conscious all our lives up until this moment is a very reasonable idea. But it is not beyond doubt, in the same way that my being conscious at this moment is beyond doubt. If we want to build on the certainty of "I think therefore I am" and provide certainty about our past consciousness then we need some way of establishing that our memories are memories of real past experiences.
 
Hmm. You prefer "Is Isn't"?

Absolutely! :D

yin-yang1.jpg


Is isn't.
 
Because the "thinking" that Descartes assumed he could be absolutely certain he was engaged in was the thinking at that moment. He knew that at the very instant that he questioned whether he was thinking he was, indeed, thinking.

My problem with this is that it is the very act of thinking (in language) which sets up the narrative self.

The idea that we have been conscious all our lives up until this moment is a very reasonable idea. But it is not beyond doubt, in the same way that my being conscious at this moment is beyond doubt. If we want to build on the certainty of "I think therefore I am" and provide certainty about our past consciousness then we need some way of establishing that our memories are memories of real past experiences.

So the act of thinking about our lives in language leads to the construction of a narrative self. I think it all depends on the exact usage of the first person pronoun. This is what the discussion about the immunity principle was about. When you say "I" you can use it to mean "my minimal self - the subject of my conscious experiences" or you can use it to mean "Chris - this person - this body - and all that it has lived".
 
I am not sure why the subject of gaps in scientific knowledge is brought up here. Since you framed the HPC as a "why" question this would not be relevant. Even if we had all the knowledge about the "how" it would not help us with the "why".

Also I can't see that metaphysics has any bearing either. Switching your metaphysic does not help with "why" questions. If the question "why are there minds at all?" is intractable in the materialist metaphysic is does not become answerable by switching to Dualism or Idealism or any other metaphysic. (Non materialism does not guarantee purpose, and materialism is not necessarily inconsistent with purpose).

So the question "why is there gravity at all?" is still equivalent to "why are there minds at all?"

In general this seems to suggest that the HPC is not so much hard as imprecisely framed. It is not necessarily a problem that we don't know the "why" of something. It only becomes a problem if you know of a good reason why not.

Do you know of any good reason why there should not be minds?
 
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It's always "now" for my cat, but he has no narrative self.
How do you know? It seems that a cat says "this person gave me food before, so I will try him again". Or "I left a mouse in this corner, I will go and get it now"
If there was only "now" a cat could not do these things. Also have you seen a cat in a new house? It will explore every corner of every room on first entering the house. In case of trouble it already knows of a bolt hole where it will not be found. So a cat appears to have a past, present and future and tells itself stories about this.

By the way, if the narrative self is a fiction, who is the author?
 
How do you know? It seems that a cat says "this person gave me food before, so I will try him again".

You think he says that to himself? You think cats talk to themselves? Does he think in English? Or do cats have a silent thinking-language?


If there was only "now" a cat could not do these things.

A cat cannot do those thing (talk, that is). I am not saying that animals do not have memories. Squirrels can remember the location of thousands of buried nuts, for example. But I do not think this means they have a narrative self or any real conception of the past or the future. They just "know" where the nuts are.

By the way, if the narrative self is a fiction, who is the author?

Good question. :)
 
I am not sure why the subject of gaps in scientific knowledge is brought up here. Since you framed the HPC as a "why" question this would not be relevant. Even if we had all the knowledge about the "how" it would not help us with the "why".

Also I can't see that metaphysics has any bearing either. Switching your metaphysic does not help with "why" questions. If the question "why are there minds at all?" is intractable in the materialist metaphysic is does not become answerable by switching to Dualism or Idealism or any other metaphysic. (Non materialism does not guarantee purpose, and materialism is not necessarily inconsistent with purpose).

So the question "why is there gravity at all?" is still equivalent to "why are there minds at all?"

I don't agree. There is a question "Why is there anything at all?", of which all the other are a subcategory, but the question "Why are there minds at all?" has an implied supposition i.e. it really meant "Why are there minds in addition to the physical Universe, which we have implicitly assumed self-exists."


In general this seems to suggest that the HPC is not so much hard as imprecisely framed.

More like our concepts of mind and matter are both inadequate as things currently stand....

Do you know of any good reason why there should not be minds?

Not until one makes the claim that the physical universe self-exists and is all that exists. Only then is there a good reason why there should not be minds. It looks like p-zombies should be possible, but most people are convinced that this must be wrong. So it looks like there is something wrong with our current concepts of mind and/or matter because as things currently stand they allow something to seem possible which can't be possible.
 
I don't agree. There is a question "Why is there anything at all?", of which all the other are a subcategory, but the question "Why are there minds at all?" has an implied supposition i.e. it really meant "Why are there minds in addition to the physical Universe, which we have implicitly assumed self-exists."
What is your definition of “physical”?
Not until one makes the claim that the physical universe self-exists and is all that exists. Only then is there a good reason why there should not be minds.
OK, then tell me what that good reason is.
It looks like p-zombies should be possible, but most people are convinced that this must be wrong.
I imagine that most people that consider the idea will be convinced that p-zombies are possible but that we are not p-zombies – which we are clearly not.

You see the problem is not what materialists have implicitly assumed but what you have implicitly assumed. You have simply assumed that it is not possible for the mind to be a physical thing.

You need to work up some justification for that assumption, and a good starting point would be a definition of “physical”.
 
You think he says that to himself? You think cats talk to themselves? Does he think in English? Or do cats have a silent thinking-language?
Of course – just as we do. Do you think that a narrative must be verbal? Think of eating your favourite meal. Did you think of it in terms of words or in terms of remembered sense data? Think standing in a field in a cold day, and someone throws a ball, and you run and catch it. Do you describe this scene to yourself linguistically? Or do you describe it to yourself in images and remembered sense data?
A cat cannot do those thing (talk, that is).
But as I have just established narrative does not need to be verbal. Have you never watched a cat asleep and twitching as though it was dreaming? It probably really is dreaming.

Does you cat never mew at the back door to get out? Do you think that your cat really has no concept of what is on the other side of that door, or what it will do when it gets there? If your cat mews at the back door then it has a plan. It has a narrative.

People always seem to make the mistake that we are categorically unique among animals, or that the similarities we have with other mammals end sharply with the mind.
 
Of course – just as we do.

There's no "of course" about that. You have made a claim which would be disputed by most cognitive scientists and most philosophers.

Do you think that a narrative must be verbal?

Yes.

Think of eating your favourite meal. Did you think of it in terms of words or in terms of remembered sense data?

Both.

Sometimes we do not even "think". When an ant pushes along a morsel of food, does it think "Here's some food, I'll push it home."? I doubt it. And when I see a scantily clad young lady walk past, I don't think "There's a cute young thing." - I react on the level of the ant instead. But that isn't part of the narrative.

Think standing in a field in a cold day, and someone throws a ball, and you run and catch it. Do you describe this scene to yourself linguistically? Or do you describe it to yourself in images and remembered sense data?

But as I have just established narrative does not need to be verbal. Have you never watched a cat asleep and twitching as though it was dreaming? It probably really is dreaming.

Sure, no narrative self involved. I am certain that cats, dogs and pigs all dream, for the reasons you stated.

Does you cat never mew at the back door to get out?

The front door, continually.

Do you think that your cat really has no concept of what is on the other side of that door, or what it will do when it gets there? If your cat mews at the back door then it has a plan. It has a narrative.

No, the cat has merely got a memory. So has an ant.
 
What is your definition of “physical”?

My definition of physical isn't the problem. It is the physicalists definition of physical which has got problems - because they cannot define it. I spent 45 pages demonstrating that physicalists can't coherently define physical and also define anything mental.

You tell me what your definition of physical is and I'll tell you why it doesn't work unless you are going to deny the existence of minds. I think we may have been here before......

OK, then tell me what that good reason is.

Do we really have to have a rerun of the thread where all the materialists flap around trying to define "physical" without denying their minds exists and merely succeed in tying themselves in logical knots for 45 pages?


I imagine that most people that consider the idea will be convinced that p-zombies are possible but that we are not p-zombies – which we are clearly not.

If you admit they are possible, I think you are in logical trouble.


You see the problem is not what materialists have implicitly assumed but what you have implicitly assumed. You have simply assumed that it is not possible for the mind to be a physical thing.

At least that is the mistaken belief of just about every materialist I talk to. They appear to be quite incapable of figuring out that is they and not I who have assumed their conclusion. I have assumed NOTHING.

You need to work up some justification for that assumption, and a good starting point would be a definition of “physical”.

Yep - you just go ahead.

Define:

Objective
Subjective
Physical
Mental

I cannot believe I am having to do this all over again. Anyone who understood that monster thread will surely not be silly enough to make the same mistakes all over again? Or would they?
 
People always seem to make the mistake that we are categorically unique among animals, or that the similarities we have with other mammals end sharply with the mind.

Yep, one would assume - given evolution - that there would be a continuum* of cognition observed. In which case what hope for any non-physical explanation for the human mind?


*(or just very very many discrete stages)
 
Robin,

Sorry if that last reply was a bit weary. There is, as you probably know, a big argument going on in cognitive science. There is a hardcore of people who are still trying to defend the old reductionist physicalist theories of mind, whilst at the same time (in the past 15-20 years) there has been a whole new movement of people who have basically called time on the whole enterprise of trying to defend traditional functionalism. It has failed. The remaining hardcore, which is represented by Dennett and the eliminativists, continues to try to make out there is no problem.

Next week I have to present a paper which summarises the current state of play very nicely indeed. It is written by Thomas Nagel and is available online:

http://philosophy.fas.nyu.edu/docs/IO/1172/conceiving.pdf

Some highlights:

Intuitions based on the first-person perspective can easily mislead us about what is and is
not conceivable.1 This point is usually made in support of familiar reductionist positions on the mind-body problem, but I believe it can be detached from that approach. It seems to me that the powerful appearance of contingency in the relation between the functioning of the physical organism and the conscious mind -- an appearance that depends directly or indirectly on the firs person perspective -- must be an illusion. But the denial of this contingency should not take the form of a reductionist account of consciousness of the usual type, whereby the logical gap between the mental and the physical is closed by conceptual analysis -- in effect, by analyzing the mental in terms of the physical (however elaborately this is done -- and I count functionalism as such a theory, along with the topic-neutral causal role analyses of mental concepts from which
it descends).

In other words, I believe that there is a necessary connection in both directions between
the physical and the mental, but that it cannot be discovered a priori.

So I want to propose an alternative. In our present situation, when no one has a plausible
answer to the mind-body problem, all we can really do is to try to develop various alternatives one of which may prove in the long run to be an ancestor of a credible solution.

This is a new ballgame.

The analogy with the case of mental phenomena should be clear. They too occupy causal
roles, and it has been one of the strongest arguments for some kind of physicalism that those roles may prove upon investigation to be occupied by organic processes. Yet the problem here is much more serious, for an obvious reason: Identifying sounds with waves in the air does not require that we ascribe phenomenological qualities and subjectivity to anything physical, because those are features of the perception of sound, not of sound itself. By contrast, the identification of mental events with physical events requires the unification of these two types of properties in a single thing, and that remains resistant to understanding. The causal argument for identification may make us believe that it is true, but it doesn’t help us to understand it, and in my view, we really shouldn’t believe it unless we can understand it.

I believe that as a matter of fact you can’t have one without the other, and furthermore that the powerful intuition that it is conceivable that an intact and normally functioning physical human organism could be a completely unconscious zombie is an illusion -- due to the limitations of our understanding. Nevertheless those limitations are real. We do not at present possess the conceptual equipment to understand how subjective and
physical features could both be essential aspects of a single entity or process.

If they are the same state, it must be impossible for the one to exist without the other. And while we may have good empirical reasons to believe that that is true, the understanding of such an impossibility requires that the necessity of the connection between the two become intellectually transparent to us. In the case of conscious states and physiological states, it isn’t just that we don’t see such a
necessary connection: it seems in advance that a necessary connection between two such
different things is unimaginable. They seem logically unrelated.

It is very different from trying to imagine the possibility of a physico-chemical analysis
of embryonic development, before one has the slightest inkling of what the analysis might be.

This does seem to call for some revision in our way of conceiving of mind, or matter, or
both. The difficulty is to do this without denying what is in front of your nose. What we need is not a reductionist or eliminative revision but an expansionist one. By this I mean a conception that will permit subjective points of view to have an objective physical character in themselves.

[query > maybe wrong to call it physical.]

Without such an expanded conception of the mental there is no prospect of overcoming
the explanatory gap.

[query> matter also may need an expanded conception]

The big step is the first one, of expanding the concept of experience by the recognition that what it contains explicitly -- including its behavioral or functional implications -- gives an incomplete account of the nature of experience.

Obviously we cannot will a new conceptual framework into existence. It has to result
from trying to think, in light of the evidence, about the subject we want to understand, and devising concepts that do better justice to it than the ones we have. Considered as a form of revisionism rather than analysis, the physicalist-functionalist movement in philosophy of mind might be thought to have had a similar aim, but I believe it has failed because it is too conservative: It has tried to reinterpret mental concepts so as to make them tractable parts of the framework of physical science. What is needed instead is a search for something more unfamiliar, something which starts from the conceptual unintelligibility, in its present form, of the subjective-objective link.
 
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People always seem to make the mistake that we are categorically unique among animals, or that the similarities we have with other mammals end sharply with the mind.

Yep, one would assume - given evolution - that there would be a continuum* of cognition observed. In which case what hope for any non-physical explanation for the human mind?


*(or just very very many discrete stages)
 
Yep, one would assume - given evolution - that there would be a continuum* of cognition observed. In which case what hope for any non-physical explanation for the human mind?

I think this is the essence of the difficulty that materialists have in accepting the possiblity that materialism might be false. It looks like consciousness is a property of evolved creatures, therefore non-physical explanations for the mind are unintelligable. I believe there are other ways to look at the situation.
 

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