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Lee Statue goes down in Charolttesvile

Warp12 said:
I hope they legally take all of the Confederate-related statues down. Mainly because I am generally tired of hearing people complain about them...especially those people who had no problem with them until it became a political hot-button.

Why do I specify "legally"? Well, because there is a lot of stuff displayed that I don't like, but I am not going out to vandalize it and tear it down. Endorsing that type of behavior is a slippery slope, at best.
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Just to be clear, you're saying that you are unaware of the long, long history of protests against these statues? Protests dating back to before they were erected? You think this is just some new fad to be against glorifying the traitors?
 
wareyin said:
Just to be clear, you're saying that you are unaware of the long, long history of protests against these statues? Protests dating back to before they were erected? You think this is just some new fad to be against glorifying the traitors?
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It is definitely more in vogue than it has ever been, imo. I hope it continues to gain legal traction.
 
Warp12 said:
It is definitely more in vogue than it has ever been, imo. I hope it continues to gain legal traction.
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Even though you're impressed by statues having been there a "long time" and having never been bothered by them?

It is super easy to be totally cool with a statue venerating people and causes that violate the freedoms of "those people", amitrite? Wouldn't want the wrong sort to get the idea that they're somehow equal to you.
 
wareyin said:
Even though you're impressed by statues having been there a "long time" and having never been bothered by them?

It is super easy to be totally cool with a statue venerating people and causes that violate the freedoms of "those people", amitrite? Wouldn't want the wrong sort to get the idea that they're somehow equal to you.
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A long-standing statue isn't "violating my freedoms", imo. No matter who it might represent. I might not like it, but "violate my freedoms"...nah.

But if you want to get angry, disregard the law, and tear it down...that is your choice. I just don't endorse such behavior.
 
Warp12 said:
Are you stating that you endorse vandalizing and tearing down these statues, regardless of law?
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JoeMorgue said:
The statues should not be up. If the government drags its feet on taking them down, I'm fine with the citizenry doing it.
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Belz... said:
Yeah Joe's just a hair away from burning down cities.
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I believe that whether he advocates for such action is independent of the laws surrounding it. I think this has been firmly established.
 
Warp12 said:
A long-standing statue isn't "violating my freedoms", imo. No matter who it might represent. I might not like it, but "violate my freedoms"...nah.

But if you want to get angry, disregard the law, and tear it down...that is your choice. I just don't endorse such behavior.
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We know it isn't violating your freedoms. It's the people who it was aimed at that feel the violation, not the people doing the aiming.
 
wareyin said:
We know it isn't violating your freedoms. It's the people who it was aimed at that feel the violation, not the people doing the aiming.
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So, if I feel that something violates "my" freedoms, should I take the law into my own hands?

I think that is our only point of debate. I have no issue with the monuments being taken down. I just prefer that it is done via legal means.
 
Belz... said:
If the law provides no redress? Possibly.
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Well, clearly we are seeing monuments taken down via legal means. In fact, such an action is the topic of this thread. At least one other significant example of lawful removal is mentioned, as well.

The law might provide "no redress" for a lot of things; but, that does not mean we disregard law.

Now, if you want to go out and tear some statues down, feel free. Just be prepared to deal with any laws that might apply. However, I'm not going to endorse those actions.
 
As part of the protests that followed the killing of George Floyd in 2020, there was a new wave of removal of Confederate monuments. An Alabama law prohibiting the removal of historical monuments was deliberately broken by the mayor of Birmingham, Alabama, the city council of Anniston, Alabama,[15] and others. The mayor said that the penalty fine was preferable to the unrest that would follow if it were not removed. The Governor of North Carolina removed, on the grounds of public safety, three Confederate monuments at the North Carolina Capitol that the legislature had in effect made illegal to remove.
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I would also point out that when cities remove confederate statues, legally or not, the states often punish them by slicing their budgets.
 
Belz... said:
Depends on the situation though, doesn't it?
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I've already stated my position on the topic at hand. I do not support illegal removal and/or vandalization of these monuments.

I fully support their removal via legal process, as was done in this case, and others.

That is about as clear as I can make it.
 
Warp12 said:
So, if I feel that something violates "my" freedoms, should I take the law into my own hands?

I think that is our only point of debate. I have no issue with the monuments being taken down. I just prefer that it is done via legal means.
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Well, the Confederate generals that you'd be happy to continue to lionize did feel that not being allowed to own black people violated their freedoms. They then took the law into their own hands. Why should we continue to venerate the people who took actions you're claiming to oppose?
 
As part of the protests that followed the killing of George Floyd in 2020, there was a new wave of removal of Confederate monuments. An Alabama law prohibiting the removal of historical monuments was deliberately broken by the mayor of Birmingham, Alabama, the city council of Anniston, Alabama,[15] and others. The mayor said that the penalty fine was preferable to the unrest that would follow if it were not removed.The Governor of North Carolina removed, on the grounds of public safety, three Confederate monuments at the North Carolina Capitol that the legislature had in effect made illegal to remove.
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There is mob rule. Hard to endorse that....unless it's your personal cause, I guess.
 
wareyin said:
Why should we continue to venerate the people who took actions you're claiming to oppose?
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I never said we should. I said that I endorse removing the monuments in a lawful manner, because endorsing lawlessness for such things is a slippery slope. That sort of ideology extends beyond Confederate statues.
 
Warp12 said:
There is mob rule. Hard to endorse that....unless it's your personal cause, I guess.
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Wait, before you said that if the politicians make it illegal to remove, we need to keep up the statues you like until we can vote in politicians willing to remove them. Now when a politician removes the statues you like, suddenly you can't support that either because it's mob rule?

It's almost like the claims of 'Oh I support bringing down the statues I like, but only on my own terms' are a self-serving way to keep the statues you like up.
 
Warp12 said:
I never said we should. I said that I endorse removing the monuments in a lawful manner, because endorsing lawlessness for such things is a slippery slope. That sort of ideology extends beyond Confederate statues.
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You said we should continue to venerate those who took the law into their own hands because they felt not owning black people was a violation of their freedoms until we can get politicians to allow them to be taken down, but that politicians taking them down is mob rule and also not something you can support.
 
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