Lee Statue goes down in Charolttesvile

[PhantomWolf]

I don't feel that not being able to arbitrarily break the law when I don't agree with it, is oppression.

I'm not talking about a law that you don't like, I'm talking about one that rakes things away from you and people that look like you. For example, and yes this is a silly law but it might give you the idea, would you be willing to obey a law that states that it was now illegal for anyone with your hair colour to use, or be a passenger in, a private vehicle outside of the hours of 10 am and 1 pm as a way of reducing traffic and thus greenhouse gases. Or how about one that allows the police to stop people within your height range and search them without needing to have probable cause?

As I said earlier, supporting tearing down and/or vandalizing things that a group of people does not like, is a very slippery slope.

Does that include city officials who remove them?

I mean, there is not much else to say on it. It is my opinion, but backed by law.

That's because it's really easy to obey the laws when they aren't specifically aimed at taking away your freedoms.

 

[Warp12]

That's because it's really easy to obey the laws when they aren't specifically aimed at taking away your freedoms.

I always hate when a long-standing statue decides to violate my freedoms, no doubt. I'm like, "Stay in your own lane, bro." That's when I take the law into my own hands, because that is always best.

 

[dudalb]

But, you agree then...just violating the law because you don't agree with something, is not acceptable?

Depends on circumstances. really.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I always hate when a long-standing statue decides to violate my freedoms, no doubt. I'm like, "Stay in your own lane, bro." That's when I take the law into my own hands, because that is always best.

I notice you dodged the rest of the post.

Good to know that you'd be happy having a statue of a guy that murdered your family prominently displayed across the road from your house though.

 

[Warp12]

Good to know that you'd be happy having a statue of a guy that murdered your family prominently displayed across the road from your house though.

 

[bruto]

I don't feel that not being able to arbitrarily break the law when I don't agree with it, is oppression. As I said earlier, supporting tearing down and/or vandalizing things that a group of people does not like, is a very slippery slope.

I mean, there is not much else to say on it. It is my opinion, but backed by law.

I think one has to make a real distinction between a law that you don't like and a law which you can reasonably consider is aimed at you.....rest of comment snipped because I see Phantom Wolf has already said just about the same thing.

 

[Warp12]

I think one has to make a real distinction between a law that you don't like and a law which you can reasonably consider is aimed at you.....rest of comment snipped because I see Phantom Wolf has already said just about the same thing.

I guess some people who support Palestine, and there are many, might find Jews offensive. If the law allows for a synagogue to be built locally, just burn it down...right?

 

[PhantomWolf]

I guess some people who support Palestine, and there are many, might find Jews offensive. If the law allows for a synagogue to be built locally, just burn it down...right?

A synagogue is not a celebration of Palestinian oppression. If it was a statue of Netanyahu, commissioned by a person that was known to be anti-Palestinian, and erected in a town that has a large Palestinian refugee population, then I would have zero issues with the town authorities taking it down even if the State Government said it was illegal to do so.

 

[Warp12]

A synagogue is not a celebration of Palestinian oppression.

Maybe in your eyes it isn't.

You underestimate "feelings". It's a gray area. Hence, the issue.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Maybe in your eyes it isn't.

Unless it's built on Palestinian land I doubt that there are very many rational people that think so. You are welcome to post links to people that do though.

 

[Warp12]

Unless it's built on Palestinian land I doubt that there are very many rational people that think so. You are welcome to post links to people that do though.

I think you are also underestimating Anti-Semitism. I am not inclined to document it for you.

 

[Checkmite]

Robert E. Lee was from Virginia, but he had no connection to Charlottesville. In a contemporary context, it seems to be celebrating the Confederacy attempt to preserve slavery. I see no reason to have a Lee sculpture there.

This sort of thing happened in New Orleans as well. Lee never set foot within a hundred miles of New Orleans at any point during the Confederacy (or during his entire life for that matter); yet for many decades a statue of him sat atop a gigantic plinth in a circular park named after him there.

Since the bizarre outbreak of common sense regarding Confederate memorials that's happened over the last few years, though, the plinth is now bare.

 

[Warp12]

This sort of thing happened in New Orleans as well. Lee never set foot within a hundred miles of New Orleans at any point during the Confederacy (or during his entire life for that matter); yet for many decades a statue of him sat atop a gigantic plinth in a circular park named after him there.

Since the bizarre outbreak of common sense regarding Confederate memorials that's happened over the last few years, though, the plinth is now bare.

Is this the one you are referring to?:

The Robert E. Lee Monument formerly in New Orleans, Louisiana, is a historic statue dedicated to Confederate General Robert E. Lee by noted American sculptor Alexander Doyle. It was removed (intact) by official order and moved to an unknown location on May 19, 2017. Any future display is uncertain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Lee_Monument_(New_Orleans,_Louisiana))

This is exactly what I mean, when I say I endorse legal removal of these statues.

 

[Checkmite]

Is this the one you are referring to?:

The same.

It was actually one of four memorials across the city that were removed in the same fell swoop. Statues of Jackson and Jefferson Davis were also removed, along with a monument praising a violent attempted coup against the racially-integrated post-war city government by the White League in 1874.

 

[PhantomWolf]

This is exactly what I mean, when I say I endorse legal removal of these statues.

And yet you seem upset about the ones in Charlotteville being removed intact with an official order from the city.

 

[Warp12]

And yet you seem upset about the ones in Charlotteville being removed intact with an official order from the city.

Huh?? That sounds like legal removal, to me. Which I endorse, 100%.

And these statues WERE legally taken down. So your point is?

I agree with these statues being removed legally, as was done here.

It is certainly different than random protesters deciding what is law.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Huh?? That sounds like legal removal, to me. Which I endorse, 100%.

It is certainly different than random protesters deciding what is law.

Except that under NC Law it's actually illegal unless it "is permanently relocated shall be relocated to a site of similar prominence, honor, visibility, availability, and access that are within the boundaries of the jurisdiction from which it was relocated."

which is exactly what got this all started so many posts. Shall we go around the circle again?

 

[Warp12]

And these statues WERE legally taken down. So your point is?

I agree with these statues being removed legally, as was done here.

Except that under NC Law it's actually illegal unless it "is permanently relocated shall be relocated to a site of similar prominence, honor, visibility, availability, and access that are within the boundaries of the jurisdiction from which it was relocated."

which is exactly what got this all started so many posts. Shall we go around the circle again?

Are you thinking of Charlotte, NC?

These monuments were in Charlottesville, VA.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

This sort of thing happened in New Orleans as well. Lee never set foot within a hundred miles of New Orleans at any point during the Confederacy (or during his entire life for that matter); yet for many decades a statue of him sat atop a gigantic plinth in a circular park named after him there.

Since the bizarre outbreak of common sense regarding Confederate memorials that's happened over the last few years, though, the plinth is now bare.

That's the type of obviously racist junk I was talking about. If we must have historical memorials to Lee, they should be limited to places of historical significance like his birthplace or grave or him being defeated at Gettysburg or surrendering to Grant. When statues appear in unrelated places more than 50 year after losing the war and being on the wrong side of history, especially when they promote a Lost Cause narrative that the Civil War wasn't about slavery but was a noble patriotic cause, then that is racist propaganda and not history.

I saw the St. Louis Memorial to the Confederate Dead a number of years ago before it was taken down. I looked at it and read the words and found it absurd. It had utter nonsense like:

“With sublime self-sacrifice they battled to preserve the independence of the States which was won from Great Britain and to perpetuate the constitutional government which was established by the fathers. Actuated by the purest patriotism, they performed deeds of prowess such as thrill the heart of mankind with admiration.”

Rubbish. And good riddance.

St. Louis was under Union control and most who fought fought for the Union and while there were some earlier skirmishes and riots in the city, there were no Civil War battles around there. That makes a Memorial to the Confederate Dead out of place and leaves only a context of racist propaganda. Just like a statue of Lee where he had no historical connection.

 

[Belz...]

This is what I am talking about. Many Civil War statues and and monuments were put up for purposes of intimidation and discrimination. Some were not.

I don't think purpose is very relevant. Statues are meant to celebrate people and events. Considering which people and events we're talking about, I think removing them is a good idea, full stop. They can read history in books if they're interested.