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Lee Statue goes down in Charolttesvile

I agree with these statues being removed legally, as was done here.

It only took a complete change of State Government to finally remove laws that prevented LOCAL Governments from doing what they wished to do with property they were elected to represent.
 
It only took a complete change of State Government to finally remove laws that prevented LOCAL Governments from doing what they wished to do with property they were elected to represent.

Ok. So, perhaps you are arguing against the overall system? A lot of people might say that is how democracy and legislation works.

Do you endorse vandalizing and tearing down statues, despite what the law may say?
 
Ok. So, perhaps you are arguing against the overall system? A lot of people might say that is how democracy and legislation works.

Do you endorse vandalizing and tearing down statues, despite what the law may say?

Are you saying that local communities should have no say in what statues are allowed to be removed from their property?
 
Some strange statues. I think it was best to remove them. They are all by the same sculptor and were financed by the same philanthropist.

Robert E. Lee was from Virginia, but he had no connection to Charlottesville. In a contemporary context, it seems to be celebrating the Confederacy attempt to preserve slavery. I see no reason to have a Lee sculpture there.

Stonewall Jackson was born about 70 miles from Charlottesville. Not real close, but not too far. Jackson owned a few slaves. He wasn't for or against slavery and just accepted it as the way things are. He was a military man for the US an when the Civil War broke out he was from Virginia so he joined the Confederate military basically just because of where he lived. The major problem with Jackson was after his death people gave him a significant role in the Lost Cause myth and he became a symbol of the Jim Crow era and perpetuation of discrimination against Blacks. So it has to go.

George Rogers Clark was from the area of Charlottesville and was the father of Clark of Lewis and Clark. He was a military man for the colonies that became the United States. A Revolutionary War hero. At the time was was called the "Conqueror of the Northwest" because he defeated the British at several posts in the Northwest Territory that is now basically Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin and a bit of Minnesota.

The Lewis and Clark and Sacagawea is the most strange. Lewis from around Charlottesville and as mentioned above so was Clark's father. They had an expedition to the West coast that is significant of the History of United States. A statue to them in Charlottesville is appropriate. It has a good theme of the first view of the Pacific ocean. They went from around Charlottesville all the way to the end of the land. The statue shows them staring out at the Pacific.

But what the heck is going on with Sacagawea? She was their guide and translator. But it looks like they are dragging her along like a dog. Or her child just died and she is clinging to them in despair. Or she is an alcoholic who just collapsed into a crumbled pile and is distracted by a grasshopper.

The sculptor is for the hometown heroes of Lewis and Clark. Sacagawea is a secondary figure, so it makes sense that she would be smaller or lower. The obvious solution would be to have her crouching behind them or knelling and pointing forward. That makes her secondary. Guides point to things. And that also symbolizes the direction west. That is exactly the type of simplistic trite symbolism that this sculptor uses.

Sacagawea in this position symbolizes...I don't know. It doesn't make sense. Unless it is a super woke post-modern representation of of the puffed-chest chiseled-chin confidence of Whites on the discovery of new land to conquer and the defeated collapse of Sacagawea with anticipatory knowledge of the resulting terror and attempted genocide of her people. Somehow I suspect that was not the intent.

I see no reason for the Lee or Jackson sculptures to be replaced. The George Rogers Clark sculpture should probably be replaced with something that actually depicts his significance in defeating the British.

There really should be a replacement for the Lewis and Clark statue. I think something similar with Lewis and Clark at the forefront and Sacagawea pointing out would be good. Or maybe Lewis and Clark as children with some symbolism of the interest in exploration.

I hope the sculptures find a new home rather than being destroyed. Many Civil War statues and memorials, especially from the 1920s and 1960s, were just to perpetuate the discriminations against and oppression of Blacks. Those can go in the junk pile, other than maybe a couple as representation of a terrible past like displaying a 1930s KKK robe in a museum.

I think these sculptures are different. I think they were simply to honor significant figures from Charlottesville and Virginia. I don't think there was any racist intent, unlike the many other Civil War monuments.

But the sculptures do have a wrongheadedness. Removing them from public spaces is appropriate. But unlike the other blatantly monuments, destruction is not. They have significant historical, artistic, and cultural value. Creations from our past that are not simply deplorable but that are insightful in the way we create public art works. I hope they find a good home in a museum that puts them into an appropriate and meaningful context.
I was thinking much the same about the Sacagawea statue. We don't have to toss out Lewis and Clark, who did do quite a trek to our benefit, I think. We can't really depict Sacagawea's biggest contributions as interpreter and diplomat very well without much addition, but she could at least be shown standing and pointing.
 
And Sacagawea, cowering beneath Lewis and Clarke.
There is already talk of a new L and C statue, with Sacagewea in a more dignified position,like the on in St Louis where she is shown pointing the way ot Lewis and Clark.
 
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I don't get why remove the George Rogers Clark statue. Might be overkill.

I think it may have to do with all the statues being sponsored by one person or group back in the 1920's. Guilt by association.
 
I don't get why remove the George Rogers Clark statue. Might be overkill.

I think it has similar problems to the Sacajawea portrayal in the Lewis and Clark statue.

I'm sure there are some people who would oppose any tribute to either Lewis and Clark or George Rogers Clark. I'm not one of those people. However, looking at the actual statue involved, I can see why people might have issues with it.
 
Thank you for admitting that you are ok with people disregarding the law, when it suits your personal beliefs, or agenda.

Bad law should always be disregarded, it's called civil disobediance.

If the State makes it illegal to remove a Statute and the City wants it gone, then it is not vandalism for it to be removed even if it violates the State Laws.
 
Bad law should always be disregarded, it's called civil disobediance.

If the State makes it illegal to remove a Statute and the City wants it gone, then it is not vandalism for it to be removed even if it violates the State Laws.

Tell it to the judge. LOL.
 
Bad law should always be disregarded, it's called civil disobediance.

If the State makes it illegal to remove a Statute and the City wants it gone, then it is not vandalism for it to be removed even if it violates the State Laws.
While I understand and sympathize, I think that one must be careful not to stretch the idea of civil disobedience too far. I think the original idea was that a law which requires you to do a bad thing should be broken, and also that the person doing the breaking should be ready and willing to face the consequence. There is a difference between a bad law and a law that demands you be behave badly, even though there is considerable overlap.

In the case of a state law preventing the removal of statues a locality democratically decides should go, though, I think we're into civil disobedience territory. If a city wants a statue in the city down, the city should take it down, and tell the state to go to hell, and if the people of the city cannot get a corrupt and racist administration to do it, then maybe it's time for them to act too. And yes, tell it to the judge. Eloquently if possible.
 
Tell it to the judge. LOL.

I would, starting with that such a law is a violation of the City's 1st Amendment Rights to Freedom of Speech and Expression, and not being compeleded by the government to make statements against their will.
 
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I would, starting with that such a law is a violation of the City's 1st Amendment Rights to Freedom of Speech and Expression, and not being forced by government to make declarations against their will.

Well, pack up your bags and head for one of these statues, brave warrior.
 
States have authority to draft all laws and legislation outside of the enumerated powers granted to the federal government. ... Generally speaking, state law will trump local law if there is a conflict between the state law and local ordinance.

So....

But, what if both the state and city governments don't wish the statue brought down? What do you do then?
 
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So....

But, what if both the state and city governments don't wish the statue brought down? What do you do then?

First off, if the State Law is unconstitutional then it doesn't matter if State Law usually trumps local. Second, if the city won't do it, organise at the next city elections and vote them out and put in a crowd that will do it.
 
First off, if the State Law is unconstitutional then it doesn't matter if State Law usually trumps local. Second, if the city won't do it, organise at the next city elections and vote them out and put in a crowd that will do it.

But, you agree then...just violating the law because you don't agree with something, is not acceptable?
 
But, you agree then...just violating the law because you don't agree with something, is not acceptable?

It's not a yes or no question. As noted above, if a law is bad, examples being that it goes against the will of the people, affecting them in a negative way for no positive reason, was based on emotional reactions rather than logic and reasoning, or where it is unconstitutional, then disobedience should be a factor in changing it. Some people might disagree on if a law fits into these categories, but that's what politics is all about. In general, when it comes to bad laws it's a bit like pornography. It's often hard to declare what it is, but you'll know it when you see it.
 
It's not a yes or no question. As noted above, if a law is bad, examples being that it goes against the will of the people, affecting them in a negative way for no positive reason, was based on emotional reactions rather than logic and reasoning, or where it is unconstitutional, then disobedience should be a factor in changing it. Some people might disagree on if a law fits into these categories, but that's what politics is all about. In general, when it comes to bad laws it's a bit like pornography. It's often hard to declare what it is, but you'll know it when you see it.

That was a lot of work to not commit to any particular thing, lol.

For me, I'll stick with the law and the established processes to change law.
 
That was a lot of work to not commit to any particular thing, lol.

For me, I'll stick with the law and the established processes to change law.

You'd be quite willing to obey the law even when it is made to oppress you?
 
You'd be quite willing to obey the law even when it is made to oppress you?

I don't feel that not being able to arbitrarily break the law when I don't agree with it, is oppression. As I said earlier, supporting tearing down and/or vandalizing things that a group of people does not like, is a very slippery slope.

I mean, there is not much else to say on it. It is my opinion, but backed by law.
 
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