Crop circle debunking help needed

[zooterkin]

It's very easy to be judgemental towards the behaviour of this farmer, compare him unfavourably with nice Farmer Wotsit down the road who put up an honesty box and gave the money to charity, blah di blah. Time and again crop circle enthusiasts get too self-righteous in this regard, IMO.

Perhaps he just didn't want hundreds of woosters trampling over his field, blocking the lanes with their cars so they could go and 'feel the energies'. City folk often fail to understand the deep connection farming people have with their land. In many respects it would be a better analogy to compare this chap's field with your living room. If some graffiti appeared on your living room carpet, would you be happy to let a bunch of strangers traipse in an out of your house to stare and sit on your carpet? And how affronted would you be if, when you told those strangers they were not wanted, rather than leave they turned round to you and told you to charge them a pound at the door?

I'm not saying I'm on Mr Angry Farmer's side, or that he is right to consider his wheat field inviolable. I like crop circles too. But there is always another perspective and it I think it would serve some croppies to appreciate this.

Well said. And, even if he did all the "right" things and ended up in profit from the income from the crop circle, he would still have had to invest extra time and effort to do something that was forced on him. He may have preferred to simply do without the hassle.

 

[23_Tauri]

Well said. And, even if he did all the "right" things and ended up in profit from the income from the crop circle, he would still have had to invest extra time and effort to do something that was forced on him. He may have preferred to simply do without the hassle.

Exactly, zoot. He's a farmer, not a tour guide.

 

[the blue raven]

hmmm 23_Tauri thanks for the input - yes you make some good points. Susan I am glad a microlight got the photograph!

I do know that if I were one of the crop artists/creators though, I wouldn't want it harvested straight away and would want people to come into the formation to admire it. I mean think of all the effort that went into it! Admittedly this does mean not really caring about the farmer's feelings here!

 

[23_Tauri]

I do know that if I were one of the crop artists/creators though, I wouldn't want it harvested straight away and would want people to come into the formation to admire it. I mean think of all the effort that went into it! Admittedly this does mean not really caring about the farmer's feelings here!

If a crop circle artist felt that strongly about his/her creations, then it would pay them to ask permission from the farmer first so that the formation doesn't get removed. Simples.

As it is, most crop circles artists (and I admit I don't know that many personally) don't mind whether their creations are discovered or not. It's part of the mystery of crop circles that so many are mere labours of love, never to be discovered but there purely as a very intimate act of creation and communion between artist and wheaty canvas. It's not necessarily about 'other people'.

 

[Stray Cat]

I do know that if I were one of the crop artists/creators though, I wouldn't want it harvested straight away and would want people to come into the formation to admire it.

You'd think so wouldn't you?
However, it's an accepted risk of all circlemakers that their work won't get seen, that it will be cut out or that someone will come up with a hidden message in it that was not intended by the creator.

The whole point of circlemaking is that the artwork is out of your control as soon as you leave the field.

Que sera sera.

 

[Cuddles]

I do know that if I were one of the crop artists/creators though, I wouldn't want it harvested straight away and would want people to come into the formation to admire it.

Which is a very good argument for the farmer to remove it as soon as possible. Why give people the opportunity to bask in the public admiration of their trespass and criminal damage? Sneaking onto someone's property at night and smashing the place up is not the way to get people to care about what you want. As 23_Tauri says, if you actually care about it and want people to see it, you can damn well ask first.

 

[SusanB-M1]

I think I would be very surprised if there was no collusion - or perhaps a better word would be collaboration -amongst crop circle makers, photographers plus microlight pilots, calendar and book publishing people and, of course, some farmers. The photographer/guide (who led the small group I joined last year, Olivier Morel), has a portfolio of some superb photos.

 

[chuck4842]

Evidence? Aside from the Queen once saying that she and Prince Philip were interested in crop circles?

(Brenda and Phil the Greek aren't the Government, but they do have the odd connection or two...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSsdUXWIkYk

I would've crapped if an armed Apache came straight at me like the end of this vid.

 

[Stray Cat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSsdUXWIkYk

I would've crapped if an armed Apache came straight at me like the end of this vid.

Helicopters are a regular sight in the Vale of Pewsey, there are lots of military bases around the area (the UK's largest on Salisbury Plain only 7 or 8 miles away). It's not the crop circles that brings them there, though I'm sure they appreciate having a good look as they're flying around.

 

[quarky]

It would be nice to see a different sort of crop circle; more beneficial to the farmer.
Suppose one could locate a farm field that was short on nutrients and moisture, yet was planted n grain.
The pranksters would sneak into the field an lay out fertilizer and water in patterns. The healthier grain would stand higher and have a brighter green color.

I suppose such art would be attributed to the good aliens.

 

[EHocking]

It would be nice to see a different sort of crop circle; more beneficial to the farmer.
Suppose one could locate a farm field that was short on nutrients and moisture, yet was planted n grain.
The pranksters would sneak into the field an lay out fertilizer and water in patterns. The healthier grain would stand higher and have a brighter green color.

I suppose such art would be attributed to the good aliens.

Not quite, but close, might be paddy-field art?

 

[quarky]

Not quite, but close, might be paddy-field art?

That's awesome! I'm surprised I'd never heard of paddy-art. Much thanks for the link.

 

[chuck4842]

Yes, sadly the only time I'm aware of anyone using microwaves was an experiment done by a group of MIT students a few years ago.
Needless to say, they failed to get the crop to bend over in this way.
As for GPS - There's no need for it in crop circle making.
Lasers do get used every so often, this is a new trend though and basically a slightly easier way to measure angles instead of using traditional geometry.
Example of tools in use

On the whole that article and the justification for Richard Taylor to write that article seems very odd. It doesn't take much work to "examine the evidence" and find out that nodes bend naturally without microwaves or plasma being needed and that on the whole the geometry required to plot a crop circle doesn't require GPS.

It sounds like another scientist, a Physicists, is agreeing with the findings of Hasselhoff. Quote from the article:

An analysis of evidence in the Physics World journal reported that researchers had used magnetrons – tubes which use electricity and magnetism to generate intense heat – to mimic the physical changes in flattened stalks in some circles, which are linked to radiation.




As a construction worker who has grown weary of cold sandwiches for lunch on sites with no power, I'm very interested in the possibilities of a cordless microwave device. Unless this scientist is suggesting the circlemakers used extension cords.

 

[Stray Cat]

It sounds like another scientist, a Physicists, is agreeing with the findings of Hasselhoff. Quote from the article:

An analysis of evidence in the Physics World journal reported that researchers had used magnetrons – tubes which use electricity and magnetism to generate intense heat – to mimic the physical changes in flattened stalks in some circles, which are linked to radiation.




As a construction worker who has grown weary of cold sandwiches for lunch on sites with no power, I'm very interested in the possibilities of a cordless microwave device. Unless this scientist is suggesting the circlemakers used extension cords.

There is no need to even speculate as it has never happened. Apart from one test circle done by MIT students, when they did indeed use a microwave device on a long extension*.
Richard Taylor is speculating on what may be if (and I have to stress "if") everything that the crop circle researchers have hypothesised is true. As we know much of it actually isn't true, it's a bit of a moot point.

* When the microwaves were used, the students got no resulting bending in the crop and there were none of the often reported 'anomalies' (blown or elongated nodes) in the crop to detect.

 

[chuck4842]

There is no need to even speculate as it has never happened. Apart from one test circle done by MIT students, when they did indeed use a microwave device on a long extension*.
Richard Taylor is speculating on what may be if (and I have to stress "if") everything that the crop circle researchers have hypothesised is true. As we know much of it actually isn't true, it's a bit of a moot point.

* When the microwaves were used, the students got no resulting bending in the crop and there were none of the often reported 'anomalies' (blown or elongated nodes) in the crop to detect.

I don't see "maybe" or "if" in the report, but if you are saying the reporter is biased to the woo croud , I have to give you the benefit of the doubt. But I have to question why a scientist would try to "mimic" anything unless he already verified the reports. I also noticed that W C Levengood is posting his masters credentials, that may not point to a PHD but he's also shown up to 50 reports accepted in scientific journals.

 

[Stray Cat]

I don't see "maybe" or "if" in the report, but if you are saying the reporter is biased to the woo croud , I have to give you the benefit of the doubt. But I have to question why a scientist would try to "mimic" anything unless he already verified the reports. I also noticed that W C Levengood is posting his masters credentials, that may not point to a PHD but he's also shown up to 50 reports accepted in scientific journals.

What the heck are you on about?

Taylor hasn't tried to mimic anything. All he's done is read some of the circles 'researchers' work and written an article about it.
As far as I know, he has done no actual work on crop circles himself.

Also Levengood's published papers don't give him the right to call himself a Phd. He has no Phd, he has no credentials to post that would give him a Phd.

 

[chuck4842]

What the heck are you on about?

Taylor hasn't tried to mimic anything. All he's done is read some of the circles 'researchers' work and written an article about it.
As far as I know, he has done no actual work on crop circles himself.

Also Levengood's published papers don't give him the right to call himself a Phd. He has no Phd, he has no credentials to post that would give him a Phd.

You're the one that used an Italian engineer skeptic for a reference, who posted no, notta, zero credentials. So if you want to ignore a man with two,not one but double, Masters, than there's not an idiot in the world who would debate you on those terms. I've had it with you this is completely useless, trying to lead a horse to water that refuses to take his blinders off.

 

[Stray Cat]

You're the one that used an Italian engineer skeptic for a reference, who posted no, notta, zero credentials.

Again what the heck are you talking about?

So if you want to ignore a man with two,not one but double, Masters, than there's not an idiot in the world who would debate you on those terms.

I really couldn't give a stuff how many masters he claims to have.
What he doesn't have is a Phd and as far as I know, the point of contention about Levengood's educational credentials was that for years he dishonestly claimed the title 'Dr'.
The rest of the criticisms raised against him are not about his education but about the faulty tests he did to get his faulty results.

I've had it with you this is completely useless, trying to lead a horse to water that refuses to take his blinders off.

lol... Project much?

 

[23_Tauri]

Having a Masters degree, even two Master's degrees, doesn't stop anyone from being a buffoon. Or dishonestly calling themselves a Doctor.

 

[jakesteele]

Some of you may know I work a lot with UFO and alien abductee believers.

One problem I have is with crop circles. WHen I talk about government conspiracy cover up (in regards to UFOs and aliens) I point out that with all the people involved, someone would talk. In fact lots of someones and honesty, can you see all the governments of the world cooperating on this "cover up"?

But eventually someone tells me that crop circles are REAL and done by aliens (they lose me hear, for all we know trolls could make crop circles). THey say "would all the poeple making these circles keep quiet?" I can point to the two nice old men that come forward, and some faked video, but for the number of circles I can't find much. I can find lots of explainations and lots of people that show how to make crop circles. But it seems that actual "I made THIS" confessions are few. Or maybe I don't know where to find reputable ones.


ALso, one lead I was following up (a member of a group that supposedly makes crop circles, though I never got a confession) told me "The reason you don't have more crop circle in the US is your farmers have more guns and aren't afraid to use them".

Any help is welcome. It seems if I can show "look anyone can make one" isn't the same as proving aliens didn't make them... sigh

The parts of your post that I have bolded are questions I have asked in various discussions I have had on crop circles. I, too, have searched for the approx. number of circles that have been created. It seems like you would have to have a lot of underground teams to do all of these circles but there are not enough admissions to cover all of the events. It seems like more people would talk with friends, especially with a few beers involved. But so far there have been too few admissions for the many that have been reported and photographed.