Cancel culture IRL

[Dr. Keith]

I do not look at Twitter unless linked to on this forum.
I saw upthread an image of a cartoon appearing to be an allegory featuring some antisemitic imagery that I have (possibly mistakenly) believed was sent out by the fired actress.

I also saw the one discussing how the persecution of the Jews began to be felt in Nazi Germany, and how she feels like that kind of vilification is beginning to be directed towards conservatives.

Please tell me that the arguments decrying the "anti Semitic" posts that got this woman fired are based on the first example, and not the second.

If we are arguing that the second one is somehow offensive, every Godwin in the history of history is going to need to be publicly shamed.
And don't get anyone started on the Spanish Inquisition.
Nobody expects it, you know.

If you are not going to address my post don't quote it. It is confusing.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Pretty sure we can safely rule out "comparing one's opponents to those sworn to upload an historically genocidal regime" since both actors checked that box.

ETA: There may be other differences that really matter, but I think it comes down to whether one thinks the shoe fits or not. In a word, ideology.

It only comes down to ideology if you dismiss all of the other differences presumptively.

Pick an answer and eliminate any confounding factors as irrelevant. Skepticism at work!

 

[Dr. Keith]

Certainly. That doesn’t render every claim he makes automatically true.

Again, I have to laugh that this is the hill you want to die on.

Stout is going to have a hard time when he finds out that Obama won a Nobel prize so everything he says is presumptively true without the need of providing any evidence.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Again nothing has advanced beyond:

My House is Burning Down = We discuss how to put the fire out.

Your House is Burning Down = No wait before we put the fire out we first have to define fire and house, have a broader philosophical debate about the role of fire departments in society, and I sealion for 30 pages about when the most basic concepts were established could you please explain them to me again...

 

[Thermal]

Again nothing has advanced beyond:

My House is Burning Down = We discuss how to put the fire out.

Your House is Burning = No wait before we put the fire out we first have to define fire and house, have a broader philosophical debate about the role of fire departments in society, and I sealion for 30 pages about when the most basic concepts were established could you please explain them to me again...

What in the ever loving **** would a discussion thread be about, if not to discuss and suss out in the abstract how to deal with a real-life situation?

Actually it occurs to me that I have no idea what this thread is about. Is CC basically a wildcat boycott? An impromptu purge? Seems like it'sa group pushing for zero-tolerance on whatever tweet comes up. Really hard to pin down where calling attention ends and Cancelling begins.

 

[JoeMorgue]

What in the ever loving **** would a discussion thread be about, if not to discuss and suss out in the abstract how to deal with a real-life situation?

Then why not have the same discussion when your house is burning down if it's so bloody important?

You and others have a very "I am under no obligation to consistently be having the same discussion if I'm the one being effected" attitude.

Crafting a persona that demands we have entirely different conversations for "My house is burning down" and "Your house is burning down" is trolling at best, full on post-fact anti-intellectualism at worst.

You're trying to make a world where your never wrong because whenever you are wrong the discussion isn't about being wrong, but some broader discussion about the right to be wrong.

I criticize you, it's an insult.
You criticize me, "But whaddaboutaa my free speech?"

 

[sarge]

It's six of his books you've never heard of. The man was prolific. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they were "being cancelled" due to low sales numbers. And if I were cynical I'd say the publishers announced this to boost the sales of those and other books by Seuss. Because you know if you announce "I'm not going to lose more money on publishing a book that nobody's buying that contains drawings of black people looking like gorillas" then a certain segment of Americans will run a mile over broken glass to pay extra for it.

I don’t hold the cynical view that the publisher made the announcement to boost book sales. I do hold the view that roughly 74,000,000/155,000,000 of all Americans will be more likely to buy and read the books because they may have racially insensitive content.

 

[Thermal]

Then why not have the same discussion when your house is burning down if it's so bloody important?

You and others have a very "I am under no obligation to consistently be having the same discussion if I'm the one being effected" attitude.

Um, no. When your, or anyone's house is burning down, you act. When you pose a discussion topic, you discuss and flesh it all out to have a working preparation for real life.

This is exactly the place to mull it all over in depth before the rubber hits the road. Kind of like a firefighter is going to study firefighting methods and approaches in the abstract long before putting a hose in his hand. It ain't that hard to understand.

Re: your edit: no idea what you are talking about. We discuss what is posed. In particular, I always put the shoes on myself, to see if my abstraction fits when its my own ass on the line. Gets me in trouble on a lot of threads

Eta 2: oh, I get you now. You have a random bee in your bonnet that you are pushing here.

I don't see any applying the double standard you are insisting on.

 

[sarge]

Protip: When you heard fragments of a news story that you think might bolster an argument you want to make, maybe find out the details first before you rush here to announce it. It might save you some embarrassment.

I have no argument to make at this point. My post was perfectly accurate and perfectly complete. It relays that NPR reports that books by a popular author will no longer be published because they contain offensive content. This inarguably falls under the ‘cancel culture’ umbrella, without need for any further expression of an opinion from me.

 

[sarge]

Clearly Dr. Seuss himself hasn't been cancelled. For one, he's no longer living, and for another, six out of around 60 of his books are being taken out of print.

I'm not a publishing insider, but I'd be surprised if many authors had that many books in constant print so many years after their death with regularity.

The decision seems to have come from a long and thorough internal review by the publisher, not a sudden caving to social media mobs. I'd say it's probably more comparable to Disney deciding not to sell "Song of the South".

If evaluating which older media to publish based on how it will be perceived by newer norms is "cancel culture" then it's again not particularly new and I don't find it too alarming.

Nor do I. It’s why I put ‘cancel culture’ in quotations.

I believe that some significant number of Americans will

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited for rule 9

however.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Um, no. When your, or anyone's house is burning down, you act. When you pose a discussion topic, you discuss and flesh it all out to have a working preparation for real life.

This is exactly the place to mull it all over in depth before the rubber hits the road. Kind of like a firefighter is going to study firefighting methods and approaches in the abstract long before putting a hose in his hand. It ain't that hard to understand.

Re: your edit: no idea what you are talking about. We discuss what is posed. In particular, I always put the shoes on myself, to see if my abstraction fits when its my own ass on the line. Gets me in trouble on a lot of threads

Oh shove the "Socratic" defense

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to remove a breach of rule 12

Especially since the double standards exist WITHIN THE SAME DISCUSSION.

You don't have different standards for discussions versus real life, you have them your arguments versus other people's arguments.

 

[Distracted1]

If you are not going to address my post don't quote it. It is confusing.

The post that drew the response seemed to be arguing that the tweet given as the proximate cause for the firing (acknowledged, not firing- "failure to renew the contract", firing only in the vernacular) was a particularly offensive one.

It was about as offensive as any other Godwin. In other words, not very.

hope that helps with the confusion.

 

[Thermal]

Oh shove the "Socratic" defense

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to match original post

Especially since the double standards exist WITHIN THE SAME DISCUSSION.

You don't have different standards for discussions versus real life, you have them your arguments versus other people's arguments.

While the random screaming at the clouds is endlessly entertaining, can you give an example of whatever it is you think *I* am doing? Where *I* am applying a double standard? Serious question. If I am doing so, I'm unaware of it. We can take no example as a firm "JM blowing smoke".

 

[johnny karate]

I have no argument to make at this point. My post was perfectly accurate and perfectly complete. It relays that NPR reports that books by a popular author will no longer be published because they contain offensive content. This inarguably falls under the ‘cancel culture’ umbrella, without need for any further expression of an opinion from me.

At this point, what isn’t “cancel culture”?

#bringbacktheMcRib
#McDonaldshasbeencancelled

 

[Dr. Keith]

The post that drew the response, seemed to be arguing that the tweet given as the proximate cause for the firing (acknowledged, not firing- "failure to renew the contract", firing only in the vernacular) was a particularly offensive one.

Odd, that was not the point I was trying to make. Let's revisit and see if there was a broader point being made that you missed:

One has an ideology. One makes an expression. Twitter is a possible forum for that expression.

Ideology, expression, and forum are each separate.
No matter the ideology, if the expression is sufficiently offensive (comparing minor suffering to the systematic murder of a race of people) and on a public enough forum, then there will be consequences.

Other conservatives are not having this problem. They are not being offensive in their expressions of their ideology. Assuming there is some similarity between their ideology, I have to assume it is how they choose to express themselves, not the ideology, that is the problem.

Yes, it does appear that there was a broader point. I've highlighted it for you. The part you focused on was a parenthetical. In most writing that could even be considered an aside, but is almost never indicative of the main point being made. It is not even the main point of the sentence it was a part of. Here, read that sentence without the parenthetical for clarity:

No matter the ideology, if the expression is sufficiently offensive and on a public enough forum, then there will be consequences.

I hope that helps.

It was about as offensive as any other Godwin. In other words, not very.

hope that helps with the confusion.

Here is what you aren't getting: Godwins may not be offensive on a forum like ours or for most discussions online, but they apparently are offensive to her employer, Disney. And the Godwin was just the latest of several posts that her employer and coworkers had problems with.

Disney is notoriously protective of their brands. They have changed copyright law in our country to protect their brands. They paid $4 billion for the Star Wars Brand and one can assume they value it at more than that today. The first rule of working with Disney is don't **** with their brands. It has nothing to do with being conservative. The Disney Company is not liberal or conservative, it is providing value to its shareholders through promotion and exploitation of their brands.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

At this point, what isn’t “cancel culture”?

#bringbacktheMcRib
#McDonaldshasbeencancelled

It's only cancel culture if it's something that annoys conservatives.

 

[JoeMorgue]

One thing I will say is that "Cancel Culture" is not immune the so-called Streisand Effect.

Like I can personally guarantee you that literally nobody saw their goddamn syrup bottle being a racist caricature as a positive until the suggestion we... you know stop doing that then a lot of people starting acting like they cared. I can't wait for the number of Dr. Seuss aficionado's that suddenly drop out of the sky in the next few days.

But again that's not unique to "Cancel Culture" because as shown repeatedly "cancel culture" isn't actually a thing. It's equally true of all social interactions.

 

[JoeMorgue]

It's only cancel culture if it's something that annoys conservatives.

Well yeah we all figured that out back on page 1.

It's just funny watching people twist the language into knots not admitting that.

 

[sarge]

At this point, what isn’t “cancel culture”?

#bringbacktheMcRib
#McDonaldshasbeencancelled

At this point, cancel culture seems to mean: things that I am upset were discontinued.

Often, the things that were discontinued were offensive. Those upset with the canceling seem to desire that those who were offended by the discontinued thing should just get over the offense rather than demand that the thing be discontinued.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Godwins may not be offensive on a forum like ours or for most discussions online, but they apparently are offensive to her employer, Disney.

Heh. Disney has some historical reasons of its own for not encouraging mentions of Hitler and Nazis around them.