Bad ideas in war

[lobosrul5]

We already have an ultra-specialized, ultra-stealthy ASW class.

Not sure what you mean, a submarine type?

 

[jimbob]

Anti submarine escorts are a waste of tonnage, fuel, personnel etc. if all they can do is screen for subs. Single-role surface combatants have been obsolete since the advent of the aircraft carrier.

We already have an ultra-specialized, ultra-stealthy ASW class.

I guess that you are thinking of the attack submarines.

They are obviously very capable, but although I am no expert, I can envision situations where you would want a surface escort.

Aircraft are good at air defence, so I guess that following your reasoning, the ideal carrier battle group would consist of a carrier, tenders, maybe minesweepers and a few attack submarines.

Again, I am a complete layperson, but I guess that it would be difficult to coordinate between surface units and submarines whilst keeping emissions low. And frigates can range away from the carrier, and carry their own helicopter, so would be able to cover a larger area.

 

[jimbob]

That is, on the face of it, not true. Frigates and corvettes*** only appeared after the advent of aircraft carriers, during or just before WW2. These were vessels that had almost completely only one role: seek and destroy submarines, with surface guns really only good enough to outclass a surfaced sub. The USN called our frigates destroyer escorts, and the RN had a class of ships (Hunt-Class) they termed escort-destroyer designed before WW2, that was roughly the same concept.

*** in the steam ship era, the class types names being borrowed from the age of sail

And whilst they are specialists in ASW, that doesn't mean that ASW frigates are only capable of the ASW mission.

 

[jimbob]

8

Anti submarine escorts are a waste of tonnage, fuel, personnel etc. if all they can do is screen for subs. Single-role surface combatants have been obsolete since the advent of the aircraft carrier.

The highlighted is a bit of a strawman.

 

[Andy_Ross]

That is, on the face of it, not true. Frigates and corvettes*** only appeared after the advent of aircraft carriers, during or just before WW2. These were vessels that had almost completely only one role: seek and destroy submarines, with surface guns really only good enough to outclass a surfaced sub. The USN called our frigates destroyer escorts, and the RN had a class of ships (Hunt-Class) they termed escort-destroyer designed before WW2, that was roughly the same concept.

*** in the steam ship era, the class types names being borrowed from the age of sail

The US Destroyer Escorts were originally designed for the RN. We got about 90 of them as rhe Captain Class.
US Navy realised it had virtually no escorts and ordered them in large numbers as well.

 

[Andy_Ross]

I guess that you are thinking of the attack submarines.

They are obviously very capable, but although I am no expert, I can envision situations where you would want a surface escort.

Aircraft are good at air defence, so I guess that following your reasoning, the ideal carrier battle group would consist of a carrier, tenders, maybe minesweepers and a few attack submarines.

Again, I am a complete layperson, but I guess that it would be difficult to coordinate between surface units and submarines whilst keeping emissions low. And frigates can range away from the carrier, and carry their own helicopter, so would be able to cover a larger area.

Attack subs are OK until an AS escort sinks them.
An AS escort can engage a sub long before it is in torpedo range using it's helicopters and systems like Ikara.

Plus, how many subs do you have?

 

[Andy_Ross]

8


The highlighted is a bit of a strawman.

Very much so Even AS Frigates can engage surface and air threats.

 

[theprestige]

That is, on the face of it, not true. Frigates and corvettes*** only appeared after the advent of aircraft carriers, during or just before WW2. These were vessels that had almost completely only one role: seek and destroy submarines, with surface guns really only good enough to outclass a surfaced sub. The USN called our frigates destroyer escorts, and the RN had a class of ships (Hunt-Class) they termed escort-destroyer designed before WW2, that was roughly the same concept.

*** in the steam ship era, the class types names being borrowed from the age of sail

That was WW2, the era of the day fighter, the night fighter, the light tank, the heavy tank, and the cruiser tank. Advancing technology has consolidated lots of roles into single multi-role platforms. A frigate that can't conduct its own air defense activities, or engage in surface combat, isn't a complete warship. And we already have super-stealthy, highly-specialized anti-submarine escorts.

 

[jimbob]

Plus, how many subs do you have?

Even a Constellation class is cheap compared to a Virginia class. Let alone another highly-capable design like the Type-26. And there is going to be a far smaller pool of sailors who are suitable for service on a submarine compared to a surface vessel .

It's almost as though there's a reason for specialised ASW frigates.

That was WW2, the era of the day fighter, the night fighter, the light tank, the heavy tank, and the cruiser tank. Advancing technology has consolidated lots of roles into single multi-role platforms. A frigate that can't conduct its own air defense activities, or engage in surface combat, isn't a complete warship. And we already have super-stealthy, highly-specialized anti-submarine escorts.

Except that nobody is proposing a frigate that cannot do those things. - well except for the utterly dumb* idea of the LCS with an ASW module. Although the US replacement for the Constellation class looks as though it will be very limited in many aspects, and possibly would be less capable than some larger corvettes. A converted Coast Guard cutter with no VLS cells seems specified for failure.

*given how noisy it would have been due to its requirement for very high speed.

 

[EHocking]

Cauterization used to be a good way to stop bleeding. At least it was the best available. We don't have a better solution to date.

Superglue?
I carry something similar, liquid bandage, in my fishing/boating first aid kit. It is really only useful for minor lacerations or abrasions.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Superglue?
I carry something similar, liquid bandage, in my fishing/boating first aid kit. It is really only useful for minor lacerations or abrasions.

I haule two of my cousins to an ER once. One cut his hand and the other sloshed on some superglue and then applied pressure to the wound.

And people ask me why I bad mouth them. "Just being descriptive, ma'am."

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

We had a few spare "four stacker" DDs in reserve in 1939. Any of them could have been put into service in a few weeks or so.

One corner of the mothball fleet. https://bpldcassets.blob.core.windo...s/commonwealth:0p096j59n/image_access_800.jpg

 

[Andy_Ross]

50 of them were given to the RN in exchange for a base in Bermuda. They formed the Town Class

They had some of the boilers removed to free up tonnage to allow extra fuel and increased range. Plus a depth charge fit and Asdic plus surface search radar. They did good work as convoy escorts early in the war.

One was changed to look like a German ship and was turned in to a giant bomb to destroy the drydock at St Nazier, the only one on the Atlantic or North Sea coast big enough to take a German battleship.

Town Class showing RN mods, most noticeable are the radar enclosure on top of the bridge and the High Frequency Direction Finder cage on the after mast. (Hufduf as it was known It could give an automatic bearing to a U-boat radio transmission within a second of it starting, an important development)


HMS Campbeltown just before it blew up

St Nazaire Raid - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Campbelltown, yes?

 

[Andy_Ross]

yes

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The Reserve Fleet was exercised on a regular schedule. Reservists did their two week/annum checking the ships out, stretching their legs, and fixing any problems. When we sent the first USN manned escorts to the UK they were asked "when can you start patrols?" "We are ready now."

 

[Andy_Ross]

Not quite, the US didn't send escorts to the UK. They started to patrol their own territorial waters and escort convoys part way across the Atlantic.

Ships handed to, or built for the RN were crewed by the RN and sailed to the UK where they were put in to dock and fitted with standard RN equipment where needed.

The Captain Class crews were sent to the USA and had their own base where they trained on the first ship built while their own ship was prepared. After a 'handing off' ceremony the ship was attached to an east bound convoy to gain immediate experience.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

My bad. Should have said "destroyers." As "escorting" is one of the primary jobs I sometimes cut to the chase.

 

[Andy_Ross]

My bad. Should have said "destroyers." As "escorting" is one of the primary jobs I sometimes cut to the chase.

Which Destroyers?

I don't think any US Navy came over until the build up for Operation Torch and the landings in North Africa.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

We sent 50 WWI destroyers to England for escorting duties.

 

[Andy_Ross]

No, they were swapped for a bade in Bermuda and Newfoundland.

They were crewed by the Royal Navy.
It was in 1940 before the US was at war.

We just covered this

 

[kookbreaker]

The occupation was never considered practical, too deep in "Indian Country" for the IJN. They hail mary'd the invasion on the basis of "let's see what happens." (I base that on reading I did while doing my Master's at Purdue. Fairly certain the pertinent tomes are still on the shelves there, not having moved since they were reshelved after that paper was done.)

They certainly had brought the troops to try it.

Thing is many 'alternative historians' have assumed that if Japan had defeated the US Fleet than the occupation was a fait accompli. In reality any such invasion would have faced an almost impossible challenge where limited approach areas and inadequate landing craft would mean Japanese "marines" would have to wade through chest-high water for almost 1000 yards, and the air raids had done a very poor job of damaging any coastal defense equipment.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

They certainly had brought the troops to try it.

Thing is many 'alternative historians' have assumed that if Japan had defeated the US Fleet than the occupation was a fait accompli. In reality any such invasion would have faced an almost impossible challenge where limited approach areas and inadequate landing craft would mean Japanese "marines" would have to wade through chest-high water for almost 1000 yards, and the air raids had done a very poor job of damaging any coastal defense equipment.

Plus the combat-qual'd gooneys would have objected.

 

[Andy_Ross]

They certainly had brought the troops to try it.

Thing is many 'alternative historians' have assumed that if Japan had defeated the US Fleet than the occupation was a fait accompli. In reality any such invasion would have faced an almost impossible challenge where limited approach areas and inadequate landing craft would mean Japanese "marines" would have to wade through chest-high water for almost 1000 yards, and the air raids had done a very poor job of damaging any coastal defense equipment.

Drachinifel just covered some of this in his last Q&A

 

[Wudang]

Plus the combat-qual'd gooneys would have objected.

I remember reading someone's story of the Falklands conflict (SAS so possibly Andy McNab) saying how some officers were suggesting the SAS do a HALO drop onto South Georgia (IIRC). Fine to suggest such when you're not doing it.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Hey, Gojira liked the last one he saw.

 

[jimbob]

The Ajax IFV (although I'm not sure how it is an IFV) as it seems to lack the "I" part and seems to be a very large scout vehicle I'd argue is counter to the lessons from Ukraine)

Meanwhile the Ares variant seems to lack the "F" part , with similar armament and crew to the Spartan APC, but 3 to 4 times as heavy.

I was prompted to think about this because of the below, which video popped up on my feed:


I'm not sure if I like or dislike his presentation style, but he does cram a lot of information (and memes) into a short time.

As an aside I see that the parent IFV was used for the basis of the M10 Booker, which, if it has similar issues, might explain why that was cancelled. If it didn't, maybe that would have been a better replacement for the Ajax, although I still think a CV90 with both infantry and a largish gun would have been a better concept. Given all the details in the above video virtually any western IFV would have been better.