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Student loan forgiveness and free college are bad ideas.

Universities are massively overpriced, and that is due to a massive inflation of completely unnecessary middle-management and administration.
Secondly, the top universities are Hedge Funds, with an institute of learning attached: it's a scandal that they get to charge their students anything at all, given that they are the reason they are receiving such massive endowments.

I wonder if it wouldn't be much better to have a system in which internship and acquiring a degree would run in parallel as a matter of course: companies would get employees trained exactly the way they need, and students would see much earlier what kind of work their degree leads to.

I agree that there has been a major increase in middle-management and administration in most colleges and university, and as a professor I generally grumble about this as you do. But to be frank I also see that society and the government has imposed a much greater administrative and regulatory burden on higher educational institutions, and that at least some of this increase in management reflects the needs to supervise this regulation. This has happened in many private businesses too. I suspect the rate of increase of management eclipses the need, but I have no hard data.

Massive endowments? Certainly not the state universities/colleges; almost all of them are suffering from years of the state cutting back their funding. They are in deficits. For private universities such as Harvard: they are typically spending their endowments and gifts as the donors wished. They usually have to do so as a condition of the gift. Generally the endowments/gifts are not directed by the donors to lower undergraduate tuition; most are to strengthen work and visibility in specific areas of research or broad scholarship, such as a disease (most private donations are in medicine), an aspect of engineering, or art.

Sure there are broader, long-term endowments/subsequent interest income that rich private universities do control without donor restrictions. Although I am a socialist don't the administrations of these institutions have the right to manage these funds as they think most appropriate for the health of their institution? Certainly Harvard has stayed at the top of its reputation and success by these decisions. Ill give you some insider information: the reputation of a university/college is not based on the quality of its undergraduate education so much as the quality of its research and graduate/professional education. That's why Harvard, etc. are so visible and (ironically) even undergraduate degrees from Harvard are considered so desirable, whereas the University of San Francisco (an excellent undergraduate experience) is less well known and less intensely sought after.

There are already many internships by which an undergraduate (or graduate student) can work in parallel to receiving a degree and these function very well for people seeking degrees in business, health care, law, etc. areas. More would be even better. But I hope the implication isn't that universities and colleges exist primarily to serve businesses and other monied interests. They exist to serve knowledge: the acquisition of new knowledge and teaching of/sharing with/passing on of knowledge to others. The fact that some areas of knowledge also have worth in cold hard cash is great and can help fund these institutions. But it is not the purpose or only value of higher education.
 
I guess we shouldn't have ever started public primary education. It wasn't fair to the people who had just paid for their children to go to school. The outrage from a fraction of a single generation's is more important than any actual cost benefit analysis.

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That said, I do worry about the "free public university" plans. The beauty of the current system (in America) is that anyone can go to tertiary education. Anyone. The downside of that is that some people will go who shouldn't.

I think it's unrealistic to expect all current public schools to stay public in a "free public school" fiscal environment. These plans do not call for universal, free, tertiary education. If it's not universal, inevitably, Directional State College will become a private institution, while Flagship University is tuition free.

The people who probably shouldn't go are probably not going to be getting into Flagship Univereity. They'll be taking loans out to go to a Directional State College, just like they are today.

If this happens, we will be subsidizing an already advantaged group who were probably going to be able to pay off their loans, while leaving the disadvantaged group in the same situation. Free public universities could be a terribly inefficient allocation of tax dollars.
 
I’m surprised no one has brought up the huge problem with vocational training and the resultant student loan problems.

I manage a medical office and I hire Medical Assistants. I think an MA training program is the biggest waste of money in education. The programs put students in debt over $10000, because people who have the money for school aren’t going to MA school. It’s an industry that preys on people who truly believe that the way to advance their career is to get an MA certificate.

The training is near worthless. “Graduates” of these programs have very little practical skills. And what do they get for (for people in their circumstances) a lifetime of debt? A job that starts at $9-$10 per hour at the entry level. Because we, the employers, know that we still have to actually train these people. And most of them are not suited to medical industry, patient-facing jobs.

Ditto Medical Office Specialist programs- utterly worthless. These are scams -Sky-high promises; bottom-barrel job opportunity. And they are a big part of the student debt puzzle.
 
But these are just theory. The data, are do those with STEM degrees pay off student loans faster than those with degrees in the arts? should answer some of these questions.

Not "payoff speed", but "default rate by age 33", which is probably also a good metric for your question.

6a01348793456c970c01bb09c854f7970d-500wi

[Rajashri Chakrabarti, Nicole Gorton, Michelle Jiang, and Wilbert van der Klaauw, “Who Is More Likely to Default on Student Loans?” Federal Reserve Bank of New York Liberty Street Economics (blog), November 20, 2017, http://libertystreeteconomics.newyo...more-likely-to-default-on-student-loans.html]

(Graph shows STEM graduates from selective schools as having a roughly 2% lower default rate than arts/humanities majors from selective schools).


The same article highlights how it's non-graduates and two year degree holders who are the ones really struggling under student loan debt.

6a01348793456c970c01b7c92687ba970b-500wi


(Graph shows that ~30% and ~25% of non-graduates and associate degree holders have defaulted by age 30, compared to ~10% of bachelor degree holders.)

The people who graduated with their bachelor's degree aren't the crisis. So why spend precious resources on them?
 
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Cargo cult argumentation, via passive-aggressive rhetorical questions.

What material benefit accrues to society, by diverting human effort to this cause? Rather than letting the humans making the effort enjoy its benefits directly?

Spoken like a true Corporatist shill!

Can't have the plebs studying anything other than how to be a good cog in the Big Business machine, right?
 
And that goes for the ornamental horticulture students, too. I knew one in college. His career goal was to be a groundskeeper for golf courses. There are good jobs available that benefit society. We need some of them.

Working as a golf course groundskeeper benefits society.
 
Where do you think the money to fund all those unnecessary positions comes from?

From tuition. And where does the money for tuition come from?

Student loans.

And where do student loans come from?

The government.

Where do you think the money stolen in all those bank robberies comes from?

From depositors. And where does the money for deposits come from?

People who have jobs.

And where do jobs come from come from?

The banks.


Just as nonsensical as your post.l
 
And what is the nature of the problem? Basically, a lot people can't pay their loans on the wages that they make, or doing so is a major burden for them. Put another way, the cost of their education is so high that it is higher than the economic value produced by that education, such that the economic standard of living for many educated people is lower than it would have been had they never sought higher education.

With me so far?

Not until you provide some evidence for the bolded.

Or, to be more specific: make an argument for why the "education" is the problematic element in that situation, so that eliminating the debt would not correct it.
 
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Some of these arguments remind me of the older doctors who objected when it was decided that interns should be kept to working a mere 60-hour week instead of the brutal hours they'd had. The idea that it might provide better outcomes both for the interns and their patients didn't enter into it. They were just furious that someone might suffer less than they had.
 
If this happens, we will be subsidizing an already advantaged group who were probably going to be able to pay off their loans, while leaving the disadvantaged group in the same situation. Free public universities could be a terribly inefficient allocation of tax dollars.

This is classic right-wing obession with "free riders" nonsense!

Better to not help the masses who deserve help to make sure we don't help someone who doesn't deserve to be helped.
 
Some of these arguments remind me of the older doctors who objected when it was decided that interns should be kept to working a mere 60-hour week instead of the brutal hours they'd had. The idea that it might provide better outcomes both for the interns and their patients didn't enter into it. They were just furious that someone might suffer less than they had.

Something similar happens in the dystopian world of professional cheerleading. Cheerleaders work hundreds of hours of unpaid labor practicing, travelling and cheering for at MOST a travel voucher that doesn't cover their gas money while literally making millions of dollars for sports teams.

The younger generation of cheerleaders are getting sick of it and want to unionize, but the older generation is viciously attacking them because they should want to do it "for the exposure" like they did.

It's the "old man" fallacy: things sucked then, so things should suck now.
 
Not until you provide some evidence for the bolded.

Or, to be more specific: make an argument for why the "education" is the problematic element in that situation, so that eliminating the debt would not correct it.

Well dangit. Bernie says it's a big problem. I believe him.

I don't understand your second sentence.
 
Why does the outrageous cost of education need to be solved by the students and not the universities?
Why is there no competition on cost?
Seems you are trying to fix the wrong problem.

Maybe the current College system should shift its model to a more online model. Its a better option than taxes taxes taxes.
 
I know. That's why I brought him up.

But how many do we need? Should we pay for the education of everyone who wants to be one?

Do you think college exists for purely vocational purposes? Because this is always central to debates like this. I do not believe that colleges and universities should only cater for the labour market. I think their role is far broader.
 
Do you think college exists for purely vocational purposes? Because this is always central to debates like this. I do not believe that colleges and universities should only cater for the labour market. I think their role is far broader.

There's a huge amount of money involved. People will spend four years of their lives not working, or marginally employed, while demanding the services of several full time employees (professors, administrators, i.e. the people who make the college work). Those people don't work for free, and the students need to eat during that time.

It ain't cheap.

In the United States, people were sold a bill of goods. Students were told that the key to success in life was a college degree, and they shouldn't worry about those loan numbers that looked so large, because those could be repaid with all the money they would make with their college degrees.

It didn't work. Millions of people now are struggling because they bought into that lie. The big question is what to do about it. An even more important question is how to prevent it from happening in the future.

Got any answers?

ETA: But to answer your question more directly, I think education is valuable even if not directly tied to a specific job possibility. But how valuable, and to whom?
 
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This is classic right-wing obession with "free riders" nonsense!

Better to not help the masses who deserve help to make sure we don't help someone who doesn't deserve to be helped.

I was suggesting that given limited resources, it'd be better to get debt relief for low income people whose lives are being damage by their debt burden than to provide free college to people who will thrive under either system. I don't think that's especially right-wing.
 
I’m surprised no one has brought up the huge problem with vocational training and the resultant student loan problems.

I manage a medical office and I hire Medical Assistants. I think an MA training program is the biggest waste of money in education. The programs put students in debt over $10000, because people who have the money for school aren’t going to MA school. It’s an industry that preys on people who truly believe that the way to advance their career is to get an MA certificate.

The training is near worthless. “Graduates” of these programs have very little practical skills. And what do they get for (for people in their circumstances) a lifetime of debt? A job that starts at $9-$10 per hour at the entry level. Because we, the employers, know that we still have to actually train these people. And most of them are not suited to medical industry, patient-facing jobs.

Ditto Medical Office Specialist programs- utterly worthless. These are scams -Sky-high promises; bottom-barrel job opportunity. And they are a big part of the student debt puzzle.


The "schools" wanted a piece of the action.
 
There's a huge amount of money involved. People will spend four years of their lives not working, or marginally employed, while demanding the services of several full time employees (professors, administrators, i.e. the people who make the college work). Those people don't work for free, and the students need to eat during that time.

It ain't cheap.

In the United States, people were sold a bill of goods. Students were told that the key to success in life was a college degree, and they shouldn't worry about those loan numbers that looked so large, because those could be repaid with all the money they would make with their college degrees.

It didn't work. Millions of people now are struggling because they bought into that lie. The big question is what to do about it. An even more important question is how to prevent it from happening in the future.

Got any answers?

The crisis is less the people who graduated and more the people who didn't graduate.

https://libertystreeteconomics.newy...-more-likely-to-default-on-student-loans.html

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There isn't anyway to stop the problem without telling people "NO. YOU get no further education". Doing that is not something that America would accept. We
would never accept a German system where because of a test you don't get a seat. Our system as is allows anyone, at any point in their lives, to attend college.

But when that's true, some people are going to fail.

The "solution" is to provide a safety net to the people who didn't reach escape velocity. Either write-off debt for non-graduates, or allow bankruptcy discharge. Either way it'll cost the public something. But that should be an acceptable price for a society that so prides itself on social mobility and self determination.
 
Proposal: government subsidizes education to the point where the next marginal dollar does not produce a margi am increase in positive externalities greater than a dollar?

Any objections?
 

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