a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
There's some really good YouTube videos out there that explain it all in terms even I can understand.
The saxophone family shows this the best. The basic saxophone that everyone knows - the one that goes up after the bit you blow in then down, which is the bit you hold, then up again for the end - is the tenor saxophone and it is tuned to Bb. In other words, a Bb played on a tenor sax is a concert C. The next smaller saxophone is the alto sax, which is in Eb. And it switches between them going up and down the sizes - the soprano sax above the alto is in Bb, the baritone sax below the tenor is in Eb. Technically there are nine different sizes of saxophone, but really only these four are in general use.But then, I encounter trumpet players in my own band that have been playing 50 years or more that don't know that their Concert B-flat is actually a C for their instrument's notation. I.E., when he plays a C, the note is actually a B-flat when played on a piano or other "concert" instrument.
I even made an app where you can choose to play notes, chords (tetrachords), and scales. I'm really proud of it but had basically zero downloads. It's no longer available.
That's not actually all that unusual. I never played clarinet, but oboe and flute also have different fingerings for the higher registers. It's something something because you have to overblow to get a higher harmonic wave.The clarinet is particularly strange. It can do three octaves, which makes it versatile, but in the highest range the notes have different fingerings to the other two octaves.
Thank you for this explanation.Well, the linked video goes into pretty good detail in plain English. I really don't know that I could do a better job of it. But here goes:
Do-Re-Mi is what is called a diatonic scale. You have seven notes before the first one repeats in a higher register. The top and the bottom are both called Do because the higher one is double the frequency of the lower one. They sound like the same note - if you play the two together there is no harmony, there is just one note. It's called an octave because there are eight notes in a diatonic scale.
However, there are notes between the Do-Re-Mi. There's a note halfway between Do and Re. Do-and-a-half if you like. For this reason we will be swapping to the traditional letters to refer to the notes. Don't ask why it starts at C. (quick answer: it doesn't always)
Do = C (a deer, a female deer)
Re = D (a drop of golden sun)
Mi = E (a name I call myself)
Fa = F (a long long way to run)
So = G (a needle pulling thread)
La = A (a note to follow So (cop out!))
Ti = B (a drink with jam and bread)
Do = C' (an octave higher)
The note halfway between C and D is either C sharp or D flat. Sharp means a half-step up, and we use the hash symbol for it: #. So C# is C-sharp and is halfway between C and D. Flat means a half-step down, and we use a special symbol that is approximated in text by a lower case b. So Db is half way between D and C. So in fact there are more than 8 notes. For reasons that are complicated, E# = F and Fb = E. Similarly, B# = C and Cb = B. You'll need to accept that without explanation - it just is. So this means that there are in fact 12 notes in the scale.
Now, in Equal Temperament, which was only widely adopted in the 18th century, the frequency of C# is exactly halfway between C and D. So C# = Db always. In previous systems of tuning, this was not the case.
Remember how I said you shouldn't ask why it starts at C? Okay, now you can ask. Starting at C means you are in the key of C, but you can be in other keys. This means that while the intervals (distances) between notes are the same, you start at a different note. So this is Do-Re-Mi in D. Notice that you can only get the same intervals by using sharps. In the key of D it is traditional to use sharps and not flats.
Do = D
Re = E
Mi = F#
Fa = G
So = A
La = B
Ti = C#
Do = D'
Being in the key of D means that most (but not all) of the notes you will be playing come from this scale. If I were going to be precise, this is the key of D major, but that's not important right now. Know that there is also a D minor, in which the intervals between the notes are not the same.
Prior to Equal Temperament, an instrument was tuned so that this particular key was most harmonious, at the expense of other keys not being harmonious at all. If you wanted to play in a different key, you had to retune your instrument. Not particularly difficult for wind instruments, tedious and time consuming for stringed instruments, and all but impossible for keyboard instruments. Under these systems (and there were a variety of them) C# was not the same as Db.
J.S. Bach's 1722 collection The Well-Tempered Clavier was in essence a demonstration of how under Equal Temperament, a single instrument could play in all keys. It consists of a prelude and a fugue (those are musical structures or forms) in each of the major and minor keys, so 24 preludes-and-fugues all together. And then there are two books so in fact it's 48. It's beautiful - I recommend it.


The tenor sax is my instrument of over 25 years. Part of my initial curiosity was why the alto music was in a different key.The saxophone family shows this the best. The basic saxophone that everyone knows - the one that goes up after the bit you blow in then down, which is the bit you hold, then up again for the end - is the tenor saxophone and it is tuned to Bb. In other words, a Bb played on a tenor sax is a concert C. The next smaller saxophone is the alto sax, which is in Eb. And it switches between them going up and down the sizes - the soprano sax above the alto is in Bb, the baritone sax below the tenor is in Eb. Technically there are nine different sizes of saxophone, but really only these four are in general use.
One of my music teachers had a C melody sax, which used to be popular but are quite rare now.
The tenor sax is similar. I never really even learned how to use the higher note keys because my band music never called for them. There are also alternate fingerings for a few notes. It's a complicated instrument, with all those keys and rods!The clarinet is particularly strange. It can do three octaves, which makes it versatile, but in the highest range the notes have different fingerings to the other two octaves.
The clarinet is particularly strange. It can do three octaves, which makes it versatile, but in the highest range the notes have different fingerings to the other two octaves.
Thank you for this explanation.
I've tried to follow the Youtube, but he lost me at the overtones.
Well, not the concept of the overtones, but then what he called them. (at about 4:50 in the video)
From f1 to f2 it is an octave. I can see that, there are 2 waves and thus the tone should be an octave higher. I get that.
But then he calls the f4 overtone a fourth, where this should also be called an octave, as here we have 4 waves on the string, and thus the tone should be twice as high as the F2 and 4 times as high as the f1.
But suddenly it is not an octave anymore? It is things like this that make music so difficult to follow. There are definitions, but after a while these are simply changed into something else, without explaining why this is.
...
And then he puts them in a complete different order as what is explained above.
Major confusion in my head here.
Or Armageddon with anyone who knows anything about science.Or F1 with a bunch of racing fans, or Armageddon with a bunch of oilfield workers, or Gran Turismo with a bunch of gamers/geeks/nerds
"If it sounds good, it is good." -- Duke EllingtonBecause that's not the sequence it follows.
Music is often lauded as being strictly mathematical but in fact it isn't. A lot of what makes up music is arbitrary and only done because it's "traditional".
"If it sounds good, it is good." -- Duke Ellington
There's a lot more than that. I also studied electronic music, and one of the subjects was how you could turn a sine wave into other kinds of wave by adding harmonics to it. Eg. if you add only odd-numbered harmonics, you approach a square wave (you'd have to add an infinite number of them to reach a square wave exactly). Basically every sound that comes out of an electronic synthesiser is a sine wave with added harmonics.There is a science to it if you analyse the harmonics of a single single note played on an instrument they will include the 5th and the 3rd, for example.
There will now be a long, increasingly technical, discussion on the application of Fourier Analysis to musical instrument sounds and so forth...There's a lot more than that. I also studied electronic music, and one of the subjects was how you could turn a sine wave into other kinds of wave by adding harmonics to it. Eg. if you add only odd-numbered harmonics, you approach a square wave (you'd have to add an infinite number of them to reach a square wave exactly). Basically every sound that comes out of an electronic synthesiser is a sine wave with added harmonics.
The settings on my reverb and delay pedals suggest that is not strictly true.Here is something about music that people don’t talk about much. Echoes. The type of music you can play in a room depends on how much longer the music takes to go to the walls and then to the ear as compared to just straight from the instrument to the ear. If there is a delay between the music being her directly and it’s echo, then you cannot change the pitch very much. So you get music like church music. You can only play music like rock music where the pitch changes quickly when there’s no echo or the echo comes very quickly.
Here is something about music that people don’t talk about much. Echoes. The type of music you can play in a room depends on how much longer the music takes to go to the walls and then to the ear as compared to just straight from the instrument to the ear. If there is a delay between the music being her directly and it’s echo, then you cannot change the pitch very much. So you get music like church music. You can only play music like rock music where the pitch changes quickly when there’s no echo or the echo comes very quickly.
TheOur musical director stands in various places in a new venue taking readings on some sort of instrument and looking pensive .
My dad tells a story about an acoustics professor at RMIT (Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology) who would assess an auditorium by walking out into the middle, clapping loudly once, and listening to how it reverberated.Our musical director stands in various places in a new venue taking readings on some sort of instrument and looking pensive .
Since there are some very fast organ pieces it's not so much about the pitch changing, but about harmonising with the reverberations. Also, because they are loud, they set up resonances in other pipes and structures. So the sound of a pipe organ is extremely complex and multilayered.Here is something about music that people don’t talk about much. Echoes. The type of music you can play in a room depends on how much longer the music takes to go to the walls and then to the ear as compared to just straight from the instrument to the ear. If there is a delay between the music being her directly and it’s echo, then you cannot change the pitch very much. So you get music like church music. You can only play music like rock music where the pitch changes quickly when there’s no echo or the echo comes very quickly.
Does this apply to other traditions such as Chinese music, though? That always sounds to me like it has its own notes and scales.Well, the linked video goes into pretty good detail in plain English. I really don't know that I could do a better job of it. But here goes:
Do-Re-Mi is what is called a diatonic scale. You have seven notes before the first one repeats in a higher register. The top and the bottom are both called Do because the higher one is double the frequency of the lower one. They sound like the same note - if you play the two together there is no harmony, there is just one note. It's called an octave because there are eight notes in a diatonic scale.
However, there are notes between the Do-Re-Mi. There's a note halfway between Do and Re. Do-and-a-half if you like. For this reason we will be swapping to the traditional letters to refer to the notes. Don't ask why it starts at C. (quick answer: it doesn't always)
Do = C (a deer, a female deer)
Re = D (a drop of golden sun)
Mi = E (a name I call myself)
Fa = F (a long long way to run)
So = G (a needle pulling thread)
La = A (a note to follow So (cop out!))
Ti = B (a drink with jam and bread)
Do = C' (an octave higher)
The note halfway between C and D is either C sharp or D flat. Sharp means a half-step up, and we use the hash symbol for it: #. So C# is C-sharp and is halfway between C and D. Flat means a half-step down, and we use a special symbol that is approximated in text by a lower case b. So Db is half way between D and C. So in fact there are more than 8 notes. For reasons that are complicated, E# = F and Fb = E. Similarly, B# = C and Cb = B. You'll need to accept that without explanation - it just is. So this means that there are in fact 12 notes in the scale.
Now, in Equal Temperament, which was only widely adopted in the 18th century, the frequency of C# is exactly halfway between C and D. So C# = Db always. In previous systems of tuning, this was not the case.
Remember how I said you shouldn't ask why it starts at C? Okay, now you can ask. Starting at C means you are in the key of C, but you can be in other keys. This means that while the intervals (distances) between notes are the same, you start at a different note. So this is Do-Re-Mi in D. Notice that you can only get the same intervals by using sharps. In the key of D it is traditional to use sharps and not flats.
Do = D
Re = E
Mi = F#
Fa = G
So = A
La = B
Ti = C#
Do = D'
Being in the key of D means that most (but not all) of the notes you will be playing come from this scale. If I were going to be precise, this is the key of D major, but that's not important right now. Know that there is also a D minor, in which the intervals between the notes are not the same.
Prior to Equal Temperament, an instrument was tuned so that this particular key was most harmonious, at the expense of other keys not being harmonious at all. If you wanted to play in a different key, you had to retune your instrument. Not particularly difficult for wind instruments, tedious and time consuming for stringed instruments, and all but impossible for keyboard instruments. Under these systems (and there were a variety of them) C# was not the same as Db.
J.S. Bach's 1722 collection The Well-Tempered Clavier was in essence a demonstration of how under Equal Temperament, a single instrument could play in all keys. It consists of a prelude and a fugue (those are musical structures or forms) in each of the major and minor keys, so 24 preludes-and-fugues all together. And then there are two books so in fact it's 48. It's beautiful - I recommend it.
Classical Asian music is quite different, yes. Modern Asian music is heavily influenced by the European tradition, but they have their own very rich histories, none of which I am familiar with.Does this apply to other traditions such as Chinese music, though? That always sounds to me like it has its own notes and scales.
That's a common audio engineering practice, when working in a unfamiliar room.My dad tells a story about an acoustics professor at RMIT (Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology) who would assess an auditorium by walking out into the middle, clapping loudly once, and listening to how it reverberated.
French horns work the same way. You can play the entire major scale in the second octave without touching a valve and that gets you the natural harmonic sequence, not the twelfth root of 2. My arms are too short to play trombone, but I own one.As a trombone player I learned the harmonic sequence intimately...
...Most learning is done at the first harmonic, which is a Bb an octave above that.
And this limited the keys in which composers could work. Old French horns had different "crooks" you could fit to them to change the key.This is because brass instruments are not tuned to Equal Temperament. They play the harmonic series that the physical construction of the instrument gives you.
My trumpet has this for the third valve, but I've never seen or played a French horn that had a finger loop on the individual valve tuning slides. They have to be tuned statically.All brass instruments have this sharp fourth harmonic. In valved instruments like trumpets and horns, each valve has its own little tuning slide, and you hold your instrument with your finger in the loop attached to the slide so that you can make this adjustment on the fly.
Yep, that's an old trick. Not really a trick, I guess. But you want a sharp, loud sound so that all you hear after it is reverb. I did this in the church of Santa Maria Novella in Florence and counted a 7-second decay.My dad tells a story about an acoustics professor at RMIT (Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology) who would assess an auditorium by walking out into the middle, clapping loudly once, and listening to how it reverberated.
Indeed! I've been playing pipe organs since I was 14 and building them for slightly less. My home shop is a mishmash of airplane parts and pipe organ parts. We all learned the string node illustration as the putative model for how an air column vibrates in a pipe, but as you say it fails to fully describe either the physics or the experience. I've been blessed to live in a city with so many world-class instruments and builders in it, but also to have played some of the delightful instruments all over the world.Since there are some very fast organ pieces it's not so much about the pitch changing, but about harmonising with the reverberations. Also, because they are loud, they set up resonances in other pipes and structures. So the sound of a pipe organ is extremely complex and multilayered.
That's debatable. It's certainly the most well-known, and it's said Bach liked it.This is, of course, the best organ piece ever written:
You're half right.Here's another thing about church organs. Prior to electronic control, where pressing a key activates an electrical mechanism that opens or closes the various pipes, there was a delay between pressing a key and hearing the sound. So an organist had to constantly play ahead of the music.
No. The clarinet does something completely different for the highest notes. It doesn't use an octave key for them, which puts the notes up a whole octave, it puts them up 12 whole notes, that is, an octave and a fifth. That makes it more versatile and harder to play.That's not actually all that unusual. I never played clarinet, but oboe and flute also have different fingerings for the higher registers. It's something something because you have to overblow to get a higher harmonic wave.
