Why is prostitution illegal?

[ravdin]

This reminds me of something I heard the late George Carlin say.

Selling is legal, and ing is legal. So why isn't selling ing legal?

 

[Abooga]

By this logic all emploies are slaves.

They are being forced to work after all.

Let´s see..

There are degrees to which people can be forced to work. The harder the "force" the more it resembles slavery.

Any problem so far?

If prostitution is legal, there will be cases when people take a purely free choice to work as prostitutes, but there will be cases when they will be somehow forced/compelled into it.

ok?

These extreme cases when people are coerced to become prostitutes for whatever reason (poverty, drug addiction etc.) would be "acceptable", in a place where prostitution is legal. "Just like any other work". However those extreme cases would be almost indistinguishable from real rape or human trafficking.

Most people do recognise a difference between being forced to work and being forced to become a prostitute. Don´t you?

 

[Abooga]

Selling is legal, having children is legal. So why is seling children illegal?

 

[joobz]

If your wife´s boss offered her a raise for doing her a BJ, what would you think of that?

If my wife was a prostitute, then it'd be ok.
If my wife was a surgeon, not so much.

It's outside the job discription and therefore inappropriate. In much the same way, if my wife was asked to do a song and dance for a raise, it would be inappropriate.

Now, i think it interesting that you would think sexual harrassment would be voided if prostitution was legal. I do not see this connection, could you explain?

 

[Abooga]

If my wife was a prostitute, then it'd be ok.
If my wife was a surgeon, not so much.

It's outside the job discription and therefore inappropriate. In much the same way, if my wife was asked to do a song and dance for a raise, it would be inappropriate.

Now, i think it interesting that you would think sexual harrassment would be voided if prostitution was legal. I do not see this connection, could you explain?

Were your surgeon wife asked to do sex or mop the floor, would you object to those two things the same way?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Let´s see..

There are degrees to which people can be forced to work. The harder the "force" the more it resembles slavery.

Any problem so far?

If prostitution is legal, there will be cases when people take a purely free choice to work as prostitutes, but there will be cases when they will be somehow forced/compelled into it.

ok?

These extreme cases when people are coerced to become prostitutes for whatever reason (poverty, drug addiction etc.) would be "acceptable", in a place where prostitution is legal. "Just like any other work". However those extreme cases would be almost indistinguishable from real rape or human trafficking.

Most people do recognise a difference between being forced to work and being forced to become a prostitute. Don´t you?

the people you are quoteing don't. They blame poverty, but it is unlikely that prostitution is the only road out of poverty, and if poverty is sufficient coercion, then any company that emploies the poor is forcing their emploies to work for them to exactly the same extent that the prostitutes are forced by poverty.

 

[ravdin]

Selling is legal, having children is legal. So why is seling children illegal?

1. Selling children isn't always illegal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrogate_motherhood

2. I should make it explicit that I was referring only to transactions made between consenting adults.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Interesting question as I've always associated it with the Xian (and especially Calvinist) "God forbid you should have a good time". But some googling says it predates that, for instance http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/greekprostitution/Prostitution_GrecoRoman.htm

Were the Jews/Hebrews stoning Mary Magdalene were really Calvinists?

 

[Jonnyclueless]

Jonnyclueless, give me evidence. I've actually looked for prostitutes who were unhappy in their work because of this exact debate. So far, I've only talked to one who didn't like her work that was from the US. I've talked to two from other countries who didn't like their work. However, most liked it.

While talking to a handful of them may seem convincing, it's very easy to simply do a search online and see statistics from the many studies done. 76% of prostitutes consider suicide, 75% were abused as children, 70% get raped by clients (of which only about 7% seek help because its illegal to begin with). etc

There are also countless documentaries on the subject and its very rare to find prostitutes that actually enjoy what they do. Most are simply forced, or have to feed a drug addiction, or are in debt to a pimp. Some have to prostitute to pay their debt for being snuck into the country. And then of course for a large part of the world, prostitution is the end result of human trafficing. Unfortunartely it's not like in the movies.

 

[pgwenthold]

So the question is, Jonny, does being a prostitute cause these problems or is it a consquence?

Being raped by the client, sure that is probably more a result of prostitution, but one could argue (as you have) that it is a result of illegal prostitution. How many legal Nevada or Dutch prostitutes get raped?

Stopping prostitution will never stop child abuse, though. Actually, I keep wondering why anti-prostitution people bring up child abuse. Prostitution is not a cause of being abused, it is apparently a consequence of it. These women will still have been abused, regardless of whether they are prostitutes or not.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Assuming prostitution was leagalised:

Where should brothels be located?

Where, when and how should prostitutes or their employers be allowed to advertise their services?

 

[jimtron]

Being raped by the client, sure that is probably more a result of prostitution, but one could argue (as you have) that it is a result of illegal prostitution. How many legal Nevada or Dutch prostitutes get raped?

How is being raped a result of prostitution? I would say being rape is a result of a rapist deciding to rape you. Is the exploitation of fruit pickers a result of fruit picking, or is it a result of cruel employers?

Rape is a problem with legal and illegal prostitution; with sex workers and non sex workers alike. Sometimes sex workers are abused or treated unfairly, just like garment workers and fruit pickers and people in almost every occupation are treated unfairly.

I don't buy that prostitution is illegal because making it illegal protects sex workers. Surely making it legal could make it safer. It's illegal because of puritanical lawmakers, I'm guessing.

 

[slingblade]

So how do you know if the sex worker welcomes the "sexual advances"?

You would know in the exact same way that an office manager knows his advances are unwelcome by his secretary. How does that work? How does the office manager know that Betty or Bob doesn't welcome his/her sexual advances?

Because if he/she doesn´t welcome them, then you´re harassing him/her...

Correct.

(ok, for this analogy to work I´ll change the first part to ""So if the boss requests a sex worker for sexual favors, that would be harassment?)

Once more. This time, please read it.

Unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature constitutes sexual harassment when submission to or rejection of this conduct explicitly or implicitly affects an individual's employment, unreasonably interferes with an individual's work performance or creates an intimidating, hostile or offensive work environment.

Your answer is right there, in simple, clear English. It says nowhere, "Unless you're a legal sex worker, and then all protection under the law is moot."

Just because the worker's job is sex, it does not mean the worker loses any of her rights under the law. The boss still cannot demand unwanted sexual favors in return for anything, and if he does, he is committing harassment and can be sued for it. If he rapes a worker, he can be arrested for it, like any other rapist. Her job doesn't preclude that in any way. Even a client can be arrested for rape if the worker tells him to stop and he doesn't stop. Also, the bouncer will kick his behind before he calls the cops.

(just kidding. Sort of. )

I think you´re the one who doesn´t get my point. I understand what you´re saying but in practice, when the sex worker´s boss, for example asks the employee to submit to his sexual advances (he could call it "quality control") or else lose the job, would that be harassment?

YES! Is the sexual attention from the boss unwanted? It's harassment. Is the worker's job dependent on providing sex to the boss? It's harassment.

Whatever constitutes sexual harassment in any other job applies equally to the brothel, the owner, and the sex worker.

The law does not snicker behind its hands and tell the worker, "Well you wanted to work in the sex industry. That means you are now FORCED to have sex with every man on the planet and the law sneers at you, you dirty whore, bwwwahahaaaaaa!"

A sex worker is exactly the same to the law as a waitron, a bellhop, a cashier, a secretary, or a hairdresser, and so on. A brothel owner does not get a free pass to have sex with the workers in his or her house. (And at least one house in Nevada is owned by a woman. Kitty's, I think.)

Does this now answer your question? No, a brothel owner, or indeed any employee of the brothel from the cleaning lady to the cook, to the bartender, cannot legally demand sexual favors or attention from the workers, in exactly the same way the owner of a restaurant or an office manager cannot demand sexual favors from his or her employees.

The law protects the workers equally, regardless of the nature of the work.

Is that clear now?

 

[slingblade]

Assuming prostitution was leagalised:

Where should brothels be located?

Where, when and how should prostitutes or their employers be allowed to advertise their services?

Nevada, for one, provides clear examples. Other countries in which prostitution is legal handle it in their own ways.

Since these do exist, you could look them up and see how others have answered these questions.

Google "Nevada Brothels" to get the U.S. answers.

 

[jimtron]

Assuming prostitution was leagalised:

Where should brothels be located?

Where, when and how should prostitutes or their employers be allowed to advertise their services?

Location of brothels would be a zoning issue like strip clubs and adult stores. But you wouldn't need brothels--the location could be the sex worker or client's residence; or hotel. Obviously you'd want to keep this off the street, which would probably be an easier task if it was legal.The services could be advertised where they are now--classified ads, Web sites, etc.

 

[joobz]

Were your surgeon wife asked to do sex or mop the floor, would you object to those two things the same way?

Yes and no. Can you explain why you think sexual harrassment laws would become meaningless if we permit prostitution?

 

[slingblade]

Location of brothels would be a zoning issue like strip clubs and adult stores. But you wouldn't need brothels--the location could be the sex worker or client's residence; or hotel. Obviously you'd want to keep this off the street, which would probably be an easier task if it was legal.The services could be advertised where they are now--classified ads, Web sites, etc.

Wrong. In order for legalized prostitution to function in safety for all concerned, it must be regulated and centralized. If you have workers operating out of any old house, any residence they like, it would be too spread out to control or regulate. There simply wouldn't be enough inspectors to go around, and the first time someone came up with HIV or AIDS, it'd be all over and done with.

Nevada prostitution functions well, because it is centralized and regulated. Someone must make sure all workers have had medical checks. Someone must make sure all clients have been inspected (and in Nevada brothels, there is a specific room set aside for this procedure, called a **** check), and someone must make sure the workers are fairly treated by employer and client alike, and that everyone is safe.

Prostitution is not legal in Las Vegas. It is not legal in most of the counties in Nevada; only in certain ones with a certain population. And all sex work must be conducted within the premises of a specific, licensed, regulated house.

There's no other way to do it, frankly, that could insure the degree of safety for all that you find in a Nevada house.

 

[fuelair]

Since I learned that a huge percentage of prositutes here in Spain are victims of human trafficking, are often brutally forced to do it, often with threats of violence against their family etc., I don´t understand how can men (if they know this) still go and solicit their services... Would you rape someone if the dirty work of raping, the violence, the risk etc. were absent and you could just safely "stick it in" and go, while someone else restrained her?

Is it very different over there? Are all or most of the prostitutes doing it happily and voluntarily with nobody forcing the situation on them?

>From wikipedia: The feminist Andrea Dworkin, herself an ex-prostitute, argued in the 1980s that commercial sex is a form of rape enforced by poverty (and often overt violence by pimps).< I guess this is true everywhere. Unless we lived in an utopian society...

Pimps are a perfect - though only a small part - explanation for why we should have the ability to carry weaponry. I firmly believe in education (specifically, the branch/form known as Terminal Education ) for pimps and related!! Or for specialized body modification.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Wrong. In order for legalized prostitution to function in safety for all concerned, it must be regulated and centralized. If you have workers operating out of any old house, any residence they like, it would be too spread out to control or regulate. There simply wouldn't be enough inspectors to go around, and the first time someone came up with HIV or AIDS, it'd be all over and done with.

Nevada prostitution functions well, because it is centralized and regulated. Someone must make sure all workers have had medical checks. Someone must make sure all clients have been inspected (and in Nevada brothels, there is a specific room set aside for this procedure, called a **** check), and someone must make sure the workers are fairly treated by employer and client alike, and that everyone is safe.

Prostitution is not legal in Las Vegas. It is not legal in most of the counties in Nevada; only in certain ones with a certain population. And all sex work must be conducted within the premises of a specific, licensed, regulated house.

There's no other way to do it, frankly, that could insure the degree of safety for all that you find in a Nevada house.

That might be true, but I am not sure all countries that have legal prostitution have that degree of protections on it.

For example countries where prostitution itself is legal, but just about anything associated with it is illegal, makeing that sort of brothel illegal.

 

[Michelle Lyon]

In the US, prostitution is legal in some states. It's governed at the state level, not the federal level.

I don't live in one of those states, so I don't know how it's taxed or regulated. I imagine (my own morality aside), prostitutes would be regulated much like any other independent contractor, or pimps/madams like most other enterpreneurs. Someone else might also know whether prostitutes have legal rights, such as worker's compensation or maternity leave, in states where it's legalized, and if there's an age restriction enforced like they do with pornography.

On other matters posted above, nobody should ever be forced into sex acts that they did not consent to. Unfortunately, to my knowledge, in the US there is no sympathy whatsoever for prostitutes in the court system. The general myth is that he/she chose to put themselves in that situation to begin with, but that's not always true. They chose sex, they didn't choose rape. Just because a client pays them does not give that client the right to rape them.

On exploitation, literally it is not the same thing as rape, but metaphorically, it is. Exploitation is using someone's pre-existing bad situation to your own advantage. For example, if someone needs a job very badly because they have kids to feed, and you hire them for $0.50 per hour to work in your fields despite the US minimum wage being $8 per hour, knowing they will take whatever small amount you offer them because it's better than what they currently have or can otherwise make without being a US citizen, and so you will make a profit not having to pay the $8 to someone who is, isn't that rape?