Why is prostitution illegal?

[jimtron]

If your wife´s boss offered her a raise for doing her a BJ, what would you think of that?

I would call that exploitation, and unethical. Plus, of course no one's going to be OK with their wife fellating anyone else for any reason*. Again, I don't believe sex work to be inherently wrong, but it often it is.

 

[jimtron]

"sex work isn't the problem, the exploitation of workers in general is the problem"

So you agree that there is exploitation of workers. Do you think that "exploiting" someone having him/her for example working 8 hours in a machine and having him/her have sex with customers is in the same level of "exploitation"?

Probably not.

 

[Abooga]

Jimtron: "I would call that exploitation, and unethical. Plus, of course no one's going to be OK with their wife fellating anyone else for any reason. Again, I don't believe sex work to be inherently wrong, but it often it is."

So it´s unethical when it´s your wife but it´s ok when another woman is a prostitute? What changes when a woman becomes a prostitute? She "gives away" some of her rights or something?

 

[Abooga]

Probably not.

So there you have a (possible) reason for making prostitution illegal

 

[brodski]

Isn´t it somewhat incongruous to legalise prostitution and have such strict sexual harassment laws that a boss that offered workers a raise for performing sex acts on him/her would be prosecuted?

Isn´t it somewhat incongruous to legalise stripping and have such strict sexual harassment laws that a boss that offered workers a raise for stripping for him/her would be prosecuted?

Isn´t it somewhat incongruous to legalise boxing and have such strict assault and intimidation laws that a boss that offered workers a raise for allowing him to punch them in the face would be prosecuted?

 

[jimtron]

Jimtron: "I would call that exploitation, and unethical. Plus, of course no one's going to be OK with their wife fellating anyone else for any reason. Again, I don't believe sex work to be inherently wrong, but it often it is."

So it´s unethical when it´s your wife but it´s ok when another woman is a prostitute? What changes when a woman becomes a prostitute? She "gives away" some of her rights or something?

I didn't say it was "unethical when it's your wife," I said no one's going to want their wife having sex with other people (with some exceptions perhaps).

I don't think sex workers should give away any of their rights. If a person freely decides to have sex for money, without being forced or coerced or exploited, I don't see a problem with it--do you? If I was married, of course I would not want my wife to be a prostitute; not because prostitution is unethical, but because I wouldn't want my spouse sleeping with other men. If a married prostitute doesn't want to have sex with people other than his or her spouse, they shouldn't have to--that's where the coercion would come in.

 

[SophieHirschfeld]

Since I learned that a huge percentage of prositutes here in Spain are victims of human trafficking, are often brutally forced to do it, often with threats of violence against their family etc., I don´t understand how can men (if they know this) still go and solicit their services... Would you rape someone if the dirty work of raping, the violence, the risk etc. were absent and you could just safely "stick it in" and go, while someone else restrained her?

Is it very different over there? Are all or most of the prostitutes doing it happily and voluntarily with nobody forcing the situation on them?

>From wikipedia: The feminist Andrea Dworkin, herself an ex-prostitute, argued in the 1980s that commercial sex is a form of rape enforced by poverty (and often overt violence by pimps).< I guess this is true everywhere. Unless we lived in an utopian society...

The problem where many prostitutes are people who end up there through human trafficking is not a problem that exists because prostitution exists, it is usually a problem that exists because of what leads to an environment where human trafficking is more likely to occur. Bear in mind, though, that if prostitution were legalized and regulated, you could more easily find and help individuals who are kidnapped by human trafficking rings. When it is illegal, people don't want to report what is going on because they'd get arrested to in most places.

Most prostitutes are doing it by choice and many prostitutes actually enjoy their work. (I've known several). Prostitution is no more rape enforced by poverty than working a check out stand at the grocer's is a form of slavery enforced by poverty.

Isn´t it somewhat incongruous to legalise prostitution and have such strict sexual harassment laws that a boss that offered workers a raise for performing sex acts on him/her would be prosecuted?

That's actually two different things. If someone gets a raise for doing somethign sexual for their boss, well, that's their business. If, however, the boss gives the person unwanted attention and makes advances when the individual has already said, 'no' or tried to coerce them, clearly that's a problem and a violation of their rights. The difference is in consent. Having prostitution legalized allows consentual sexual acts for money. It does not allow people to force sex onto others if they give them money.

(I can´t get the quote function working)

You see Jimtron, I was agreeing with you in that it is not "inherently" rape. It is not if it is a purely free choice, but in practise it´s not like that, so it is a bit like rape, in the extent that the prostitute is forced, bullied or the circumstances (society, luck, lack of other options etc.) force it on her/him.

"Is the problem with sex workers, or the exploitation of workers in general?"
Both are problems, aren´t they? but what I was saying is that in a society where workers are exploited, giving employers the possibility to exploit them even more is not a good thing. That´s what I meant with "in this society employers should have some limits as to what they can demand form workers". Sorry but English is not my first language.

Where the problem is someone lacking in money turning to prostitution under their own power, it still isn't rape. They chose their profession in most cases. If they're there because they were bullied, legalizing prostitution could give prostitutes various means to protect themselves and use the law to their advantage.

Just because one guy doesn't want his wife to give her boss a BJ doesn't mean that the event is ok or not ok. I would think that the example needs more details and would depend on context.

In the realm of rights, it seems to me that it is a violation of a prostitutes rights to arrest her for something she does with her own body - so if your problem is with personal rights, then it would seem that you'd be in favor of prostitution.

 

[jimtron]

So there you have a (possible) reason for making prostitution illegal

I'm missing the logic here. Why? Prostitution should be illegal because:

 

[Jonnyclueless]

"Most prostitutes are doing it by choice and many prostitutes actually enjoy their work. (I've known several). Prostitution is no more rape enforced by poverty than working a check out stand at the grocer's is a form of slavery enforced by poverty."

This is actually not at all true. By far the majority of prostitutes are forced into it or do it because of drug addiction or mental illness. Yes there are some who do it for enjoyment, but they are the minority.

 

[Abooga]

The problem where many prostitutes are people who end up there through human trafficking is not a problem that exists because prostitution exists, it is usually a problem that exists because of what leads to an environment where human trafficking is more likely to occur. Bear in mind, though, that if prostitution were legalized and regulated, you could more easily find and help individuals who are kidnapped by human trafficking rings. When it is illegal, people don't want to report what is going on because they'd get arrested to in most places.

Yes, I could agree to that...

Most prostitutes are doing it by choice and many prostitutes actually enjoy their work. (I've known several). Prostitution is no more rape enforced by poverty than working a check out stand at the grocer's is a form of slavery enforced by poverty.

Being forced to work at a grocers´is rape?

That's actually two different things. If someone gets a raise for doing somethign sexual for their boss, well, that's their business. If, however, the boss gives the person unwanted attention and makes advances when the individual has already said, 'no' or tried to coerce them, clearly that's a problem and a violation of their rights. The difference is in consent. Having prostitution legalized allows consentual sexual acts for money. It does not allow people to force sex onto others if they give them money.

The difference is consent? But the boss was just OFFERING it to your wife. That´s before consent. Why is it illegal for the boss to just make that offering if other women legally work doing just that? Where´s the difference?

Where the problem is someone lacking in money turning to prostitution under their own power, it still isn't rape. They chose their profession in most cases. If they're there because they were bullied, legalizing prostitution could give prostitutes various means to protect themselves and use the law to their advantage.

Just because one guy doesn't want his wife to give her boss a BJ doesn't mean that the event is ok or not ok. I would think that the example needs more details and would depend on context.

In the realm of rights, it seems to me that it is a violation of a prostitutes rights to arrest her for something she does with her own body - so if your problem is with personal rights, then it would seem that you'd be in favor of prostitution.

I´m not sure what I´m in favour of... I agree with your pragmatic reasons but I still see something "icky" with it for the reasons given...

 

[SophieHirschfeld]

Jonnyclueless, give me evidence. I've actually looked for prostitutes who were unhappy in their work because of this exact debate. So far, I've only talked to one who didn't like her work that was from the US. I've talked to two from other countries who didn't like their work. However, most liked it.

 

[Abooga]

I'm missing the logic here. Why? Prostitution should be illegal because:

Because some things are deemed too exploitative to be allowed employers to legally demand from workers. Since you admitted demands for sex could be one of them...

 

[SophieHirschfeld]

Being forced to work at a grocers´is rape?

No, your assertion that because women are economically driven, it is rape is a problem. The grocer's example is showing why. Just because something is economically driven doesn't mean it is evil and forced.

The difference is consent? But the boss was just OFFERING it to your wife. That´s before consent. Why is it illegal for the boss to just make that offering if other women legally work doing just that? Where´s the difference?

I don't have a wife at this point, but if I had a wife and she consented to giving her boss a BJ I would have no problem with it as long as they were safe about it. Then again, I'm a bisexual female and might actually think that was really hot. If the boss is just making the offering, it is not necessarily the case that it should be illegal if it is just an offer, though, there might be ethical concerns if he knows the girl will think she has some obligation due to her employment. The difference is, though:

1) The prostitute solicits sex, usually, or has someone solicit for her.
2) The worker may feel pressured because other employment is on the line (since their job is not about sex, necessarily).
3) Sexual harassment over someone asking for sex in other work environments is not the same as someone who is asking you to pay her to give you sex. (another way to word line 1, I know).

I´m not sure what I´m in favour of... I agree with your pragmatic reasons but I still see something "icky" with it for the reasons given...

Is it possible that you see it as 'icky' because of how others have discussed the issue with you in the past? I know that from my experience in the sex industry, most of the problems that come about have something to do with people criticizing the industry from the outside, not from the work itself. When the entire social group you're exposed to outside of work tells you that you're evil when you're at work - even when they have no rational reason to tell you that - it can really get to you. Many girls end up with burnout because of that alone. Many girls get scared out of the industry because of it, even when they love what they do.

 

[jimtron]

Because some things are deemed too exploitative to be allowed employers to legally demand from workers. Since you admitted demands for sex could be one of them...

Exploiting workers=bad. Using one's position of authority to intimidate someone, and/or sexual harassment=bad. It's not the trading sex part I have a problem with, it's the exploitation I have a problem with.

If sex is traded for money or something else, and no one is getting exploited or coerced, and no one is using a position of authority to pressure another person, I don't see a problem--do you, Abooga?

I agree with your pragmatic reasons but I still see something "icky" with it for the reasons given...

That's fine, but just because it seems icky to you doesn't mean it's unethical. That's likely why pot and prostitution and gay marriage are illegal--the powers that be find it "icky."

 

[Abooga]

No, your assertion that because women are economically driven, it is rape is a problem. The grocer's example is showing why. Just because something is economically driven doesn't mean it is evil and forced.

I don´t agree or understand. Forcing someone to sex is rape. Indirecltly forcing someone to sex is not rape?

I don't have a wife at this point, but if I had a wife and she consented to giving her boss a BJ I would have no problem with it as long as they were safe about it. Then again, I'm a bisexual female and might actually think that was really hot. If the boss is just making the offering, it is not necessarily the case that it should be illegal if it is just an offer, though, there might be ethical concerns if he knows the girl will think she has some obligation due to her employment. The difference is, though:

1) The prostitute solicits sex, usually, or has someone solicit for her.
2) The worker may feel pressured because other employment is on the line (since their job is not about sex, necessarily).
3) Sexual harassment over someone asking for sex in other work environments is not the same as someone who is asking you to pay her to give you sex. (another way to word line 1, I know).

Could someone work part time as prositute and part time as office worker? In that case would it still be harassment?

I just see something odd here, but I can´t spell it out properly.

"there might be ethical concerns if he knows the girl will think she has some obligation due to her employment" - which is what happens to prostitutes...

Is it possible that you see it as 'icky' because of how others have discussed the issue with you in the past? I know that from my experience in the sex industry, most of the problems that come about have something to do with people criticizing the industry from the outside, not from the work itself. When the entire social group you're exposed to outside of work tells you that you're evil when you're at work - even when they have no rational reason to tell you that - it can really get to you. Many girls end up with burnout because of that alone. Many girls get scared out of the industry because of it, even when they love what they do.

Perhaps.

 

[Abooga]

If sex is traded for money or something else, and no one is getting exploited or coerced, and no one is using a position of authority to pressure another person, I don't see a problem--do you, Abooga?

I´ve already said I don´t. At least twice.

That's fine, but just because it seems icky to you doesn't mean it's unethical. That's likely why pot and prostitution and gay marriage are illegal--the powers that be find it "icky."

I don´t find it "icky" for silly moralist reasons, but for the reasons given (exploitation etc.). In a perfect society there would be no reason to make it illegal.

 

[slingblade]

Isn´t it somewhat incongruous to legalise prostitution and have such strict sexual harassment laws that a boss that offered workers a raise for performing sex acts on him/her would be prosecuted?

Not at all. Your boss is your boss; your client, your client. The two are mutually exclusive for the employee, and there is no contradiction inherent or implied. The nature of the business has no bearing on the strength of the law.

Besides, you obviously don't know how the workers' wages are calculated. At least, here in the U.S.

There is a set price, which is called a "menu" in most houses, but the ladies often haggle with the customer and get still more money, if they're smart. Trust me, most of them are more than smart. But the boss wouldn't negotiate in any fashion with individual workers in his house. What one makes, base price, they all make. There are no individual salaries paid by the employer. Whatever price the worker negotiates with her client, the house takes half. Period.

In Nevada, where prostitution is legal in certain counties and is closely regulated, no one is ever forced. The ladies have full right to refuse any client for any reason. It's no big thing; if it's a matter of personal taste, the client has plenty of other ladies from which to choose. If it's a matter of safety, the house fully supports its staff, and for a sex-worker to get hurt on the job is incredibly rare and not tolerated.

My information for this comes from my friend, who has been a worker in a house in Nevada for over 5 years, and from my own, separate reaserch, which last is available to anyone who cares to look for it, rather than make up hysterical hypotheticals from whole cloth.

 

[Abooga]

Not at all. Your boss is your boss; your client, your client. The two are mutually exclusive for the employee, and there is no contradiction inherent or implied. The nature of the business has no bearing on the strength of the law.

Besides, you obviously don't know how the workers' wages are calculated.

There is a set price, which is called a "menu" in most houses, but the ladies often haggle with the customer and get still more money, if they're smart. Trust me, most of them are more than smart. But the boss wouldn't negotiate in any fashion with individual workers in his house. What one makes, base price, they all make. There are no individual salaries paid by the employer. Whatever price the worker negotiates with her client, the house takes half. Period.

I don´t understand how this answers my point.

In Nevada, where prostitution is legal in certain counties and is closely regulated, no one is ever forced. The ladies have full right to refuse any client for any reason. It's no big thing; if it's a matter of personal taste, the client has plenty of other ladies from which to choose. If it's a matter of safety, the house fully supports its staff, and for a sex-worker to get hurt on the job is incredibly rare and not tolerated.

My information for this comes from my friend, who has been a worker in a house in Nevada for over 5 years, and from my own, separate reaserch, which last is available to anyone who cares to look for it, rather than make up hysterical hypotheticals from whole cloth.

I got a very different impression from reading related past threads. One Nevada house was described as a sort of prison, and many of the workers as mentally il and abused...

Show us your research then. I´d be interested to see it.

 

[SophieHirschfeld]

I don´t agree or understand. Forcing someone to sex is rape. Indirecltly forcing someone to sex is not rape?

If a woman decides to have sex with someone for money, tht is not indirectly forcing her to have sex. Unless the guy demanded it, she's not being forced.

Could someone work part time as prositute and part time as office worker? In that case would it still be harassment?

Those are two different jobs. One requires sexual activity and one requires other work. Also, in the case of a demanding employer, sexual demands that are unwanted should not be continued for anyone in any contexts, even a sex worker.

I just see something odd here, but I can´t spell it out properly.

"there might be ethical concerns if he knows the girl will think she has some obligation due to her employment" - which is what happens to prostitutes...

No, prostitutes can turn down clients and accept them. Kinda like when I'm camming, I can tell a guy to find another girl if I dislike whatever he's saying or doing. I have that option. I have other clients and it does happen that I occasionally meet a guy that is just not compatible with me and I have to turn down his business.

slingblade, I'd be interested in your research if you care to share, please.

 

[Abooga]

If a woman decides to have sex with someone for money, tht is not indirectly forcing her to have sex. Unless the guy demanded it, she's not being forced.

There could be forms of "Droit de seigneur" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_de_seigneur) in which women could be not totally forced to have sex but economically (etc.) coerced. Would that be right? Perhaps not technically rape, but... fairly similar. The more coerced they are, the more similar to rape.

Those are two different jobs. One requires sexual activity and one requires other work. Also, in the case of a demanding employer, sexual demands that are unwanted should not be continued for anyone in any contexts, even a sex worker.

So if one asked for sex twice to a sex worker that would be harassment? And, one can demand for sex from an employee if he does it only once? And why the sharp distinction? If prostitution would be legal you could have all sorts of mixed employments, "secretary with extra services" etc. Could you still have the same sexual harassment laws we have now? Don´t you see the contradictins there?

No, prostitutes can turn down clients and accept them. Kinda like when I'm camming, I can tell a guy to find another girl if I dislike whatever he's saying or doing. I have that option. I have other clients and it does happen that I occasionally meet a guy that is just not compatible with me and I have to turn down his business.

slingblade, I'd be interested in your research if you care to share, please.

What the hell is camming? You mean oh I see...