What to do with prostitutes

[Hokulele]

I noticed that you are still refusing to comment on male prostitutes. Why is that?

 

[Greatest I am]

I noticed that you are still refusing to comment on male prostitutes. Why is that?

I may have missed the question.
I have nothing different to say about males.
Same boat same product.

Regards
DL

 

[Wheezebucket]

So what other choices do you think people shouldn't be allowed to make on their own, GIA? You've made it clear that you and Jesus frown on that one, and I'd like to hear what else you two aren't big on.

 

[Greatest I am]

So what other choices do you think people shouldn't be allowed to make on their own, GIA? You've made it clear that you and Jesus frown on that one, and I'd like to hear what else you two aren't big on.

To me for there to be sin or crime, there should be a victim or complainant.
Prostitution is slightly different. There is not usually a victim at the transaction, but as stated, I think that the ranks of average hookers are filled from occasions of abuse, including slavery and child abuse.
Not all of course but too many. This is male and female.


If it were otherwise I probably would not care much one way or the other.
If you have a specific in mind let's hear it.


Regards
DL

 

[pgwenthold]

To me for there to be sin or crime, there should be a victim or complainant.
Prostitution is slightly different. There is not usually a victim at the transaction, but as stated, I think that the ranks of average hookers are filled from occasions of abuse, including slavery and child abuse.
Not all of course but too many. This is male and female.

So what about the ones who haven't suffered abuse and chose to be prostitutes? You must agree that prostitution is ok for them, right?

Let's try it this way. Suppose tonight, by a wave of my wand, I was able to rid the world of sex slavery and child abuse. Would prostitution then be acceptable for you? Because I can guarantee you, it wouldn't go away.

I still don't understand why you think that blaming the consequences of evil is going to stop the evil? As I commented above, when people are in such a terrible state that living on the street in prostitution is preferable to their alternative (such as living in an abusive home), then I'd be focusing on the CAUSE of that problem. Stopping prostitution isn't going to stop the problem that made the girls run away from home in the first place.

 

[Greatest I am]

So what about the ones who haven't suffered abuse and chose to be prostitutes? You must agree that prostitution is ok for them, right?

GIA wrote
No.
There should not be sin ore crime where you have two consenting adults.
Regardless of this the practice is demeaning to my way of thinking.
I do not placing a price on a human being.

Let's try it this way. Suppose tonight, by a wave of my wand, I was able to rid the world of sex slavery and child abuse. Would prostitution then be acceptable for you? Because I can guarantee you, it wouldn't go away.

GIA wrote
It would not go away I agree. It would still be demeaning.

I still don't understand why you think that blaming the consequences of evil is going to stop the evil? As I commented above, when people are in such a terrible state that living on the street in prostitution is preferable to their alternative (such as living in an abusive home), then I'd be focusing on the CAUSE of that problem. Stopping prostitution isn't going to stop the problem that made the girls run away from home in the first place.

If that escape route were not there or not there for slavers to feed then we might develop better systems to deal with runaways. This might force us to go after those who abuse more vigorously than now.
News of a few arrests and law suits might actually reduce the incidences of abuse. IE. a young child who i know of who entered the trade to save her two sisters from her father.

Regards
DL

 

[toddjh]

a young child who i know of who entered the trade to save her two sisters from her father.

Of course we all agree that there should be a better way, but given that there's not, do you really think she and her sisters would be better off if that avenue had not been open to them?

 

[pgwenthold]

Of course we all agree that there should be a better way, but given that there's not, do you really think she and her sisters would be better off if that avenue had not been open to them?

This is the point I am trying to get through. The reason girls in these circumstances resort to life on the streets is because it is better than the alternative!

Think about that. Living as a prostitute is better to these people than having to live through the abuse they experience at home. That's why they leave. The outside has to be better.

Eliminating prostitution isn't going to make living at home any better for them, it is only going to reduce their options for escaping it. Eliminating prostitution isn't going to make the better qualified to join the work force so they can get a more respectable job.

If prostitution has too many who suffered from abuse, then stop the abuse.

Why worry about the consequences of evil, instead of trying to stop the evil itself?

 

[Gnu Ordure]

lonewulf/the A/qayak,

What I was challenging was the idea that sex could be reduced to a set of physical practices that could be learned, and that the most skilled practioners would therefore to be able to provide the most satisfying experience.

As qayak said :

I can't figure out why people are so hung up on paying for sex? Sure, your friend can do the job but let's face it, you get what you pay for. A professional is probably your best bet!

According to this, sex is an expertise, so you are more likely to be satisfied if you seek the services of a professional who has studied and practised.

I disagree.

Sex between lovers (at its best) is characterized by love, respect, honesty, and empathy; love has to given freely; it cannot be bought.

As soon as sex becomes part of a wider transaction, be it cash, cars, or security, all of that goes out of the window.

And the sex then becomes characterized by hatred, contempt, lies and self-interest.

Prostitution is not a respectable profession.

If you want to insult a woman, you call her a 'whore'. If you want to insult a man, call him a 'son of a whore'.

as loss leader said :

Indeed. I, for one, despise prostitution

I appreciate you're despising a profession there, LL, but it comes down to a buyer and a seller all the same. Who exactly are you despising ?

as The Atheist said, when he was dismissing the prostitutes report to the European Parliament, he referred to them as:

The stoopid bitches who wrote the report

I might agree with the 'stupid', The A, but 'bitches' ? Why 'bitches' ?

Because they're women ? Or because they're dogs ? Or just a casual comment you made without thinking ? Or because they're prostitutes ?

(Sorry to call you on that, The A, we were getting on so well - but you did write it).

The incidence of violence against prostitutes tends to support my case, but I realize that might have multiple causes.




And the contempt goes in the opposite direction, of course. Most prostitutes despise their clients. Part of their job is to conceal that contempt.

And the rest of their job is to provide an inauthentic, fake experience.

When lovers make love, they often say "I love you"; they like to say the words, and they like to hear them.

You can pay a prostitute to tell you she loves you, and to look like she means it - but it's a lie, and you both know it.

Likewise, you can pay a prostitute to pretend she fancies you (she doesn't), to pretend she loves you (she doesn't), to pretend you're turning her on (you aren't), to pretend you've made her come (you haven't), or to pretend it all means something (it doesn't).

And it's all a big, fat, lie.

But while you continue to suspend your disbelief, you can enjoy the the show and the acting.

But when you come out of the theatre, you have to admit that what you saw wasn't real.



And what was real, was the barely disguised mutual contempt.






I appreciate that I could do with some facts and figures to back up some of my assertions here - happy to go and look if requested... I say that because I'm sure there are specific instances which contradict what I'm saying - occasionally a prostitute does form a genuine relationship with a long-term client, for example - but I think those kind of things (Hollywood's 'hooker with a heart of gold'), are the exception rather than the rule.


Gnu.


PS Edit plus - maybe I should clarify - in spite of the negative attitude that I display above, I still think that there is nothing ethically wrong in prostitution between consenting adults (the women put on an act, and the men are free to believe it or not) - and that it should not be illegal.

 

[Gnu Ordure]

sorry, double-post...

 

[toddjh]

As soon as sex becomes part of a wider transaction, be it cash, cars, or security, all of that goes out of the window.

And the sex then becomes characterized by hatred, contempt, lies and self-interest.

I don't see how that second sentence follows from the first, especially the "lies" part. In fact, I can think of no more honest transaction than paying for sex -- each party is being perfectly truthful about what they want.

Edit: Reading the rest of the post, I just have to say that the hypothetical man and woman you're describing sure have some serious issues. I think you're taking the absolute worst case scenario and overextrapolating. For starters, not all men want feigned intimacy or an emotional connection; in fact, I'd wager that a lot of the ones that hire prostitutes just want some sexual release minus the baggage. That goes double for the men who hire the streetwalker types (who definitely do not include a lot of cuddling as part of the package).

And not all prostitutes feel contempt for their clients. The ones I know say they actually like a lot of their clients and, yes, even have fun with them. Not all, of course, but then again I'm not crazy about all of my (web design) clients, either.

As for prostitution not being "respectable," I disagree. It's definitely not respected in Western society at least, but that's just a cultural norm and subject to change. Certainly many cultures have held prostitutes, or at least some classes of prostitutes, in fairly high regard.

 

[The Atheist]

lonewulf/the A/qayak,

What I was challenging was the idea that sex could be reduced to a set of physical practices that could be learned, and that the most skilled practioners would therefore to be able to provide the most satisfying experience.

According to this, sex is an expertise, so you are more likely to be satisfied if you seek the services of a professional who has studied and practised.

I disagree.

I'll happily disagree with you and note that I think the comment was a little tongue-in-cheek. What prostitutes are best at is getting it over quickly, although there is a subset of very expensive prostitutes who do treat it as an art.

Sex between lovers (at its best) is characterized by love, respect, honesty, and empathy; love is always given freely, and therefore cannot be bought.

As soon as sex becomes part of a wider transaction, be it cash, cars, or security, all of that goes out of the window.

And the sex then becomes characterized by hatred, contempt, lies and self-interest.

That's drawing a fairly long bow - there are large numbers of people to whom sex is just sex. I repeat my earlier comment; one type isn't inherently "better" than the other and I submit that the right prostitute at the right time can be every bit as much a turn-on as a lifelong partner or the local hottie you've lusted after for six months. Not always, but sometimes.

Prostitution is not a respectable profession.

Well, I not only disagree, I can prove you wrong. I have lots of respect for women who can reduce sex to part of their job and then go and do it as well as some can. I have respect for women who can work as prostitues while bringing up children successfully and I personally know examples of both types.

I consider a prostitute a lot more respectable than a real estate agent or car salesman, for starters.

I might agree with the 'stupid', The A, but 'bitches' ? Why 'bitches' ?

Because they're women ? Or because they're dogs ? Or just a casual comment you made without thinking ? Or because they're prostitutes ?

Neither, the expression, had they been blokes, would have been "stoopid bastards". The "bitches" is part of the expression rather than a deliberate extra slur. In Kiwi vernacular, they would have been "stoopid ####s" but that one's banned by rule 8, so I went with the next word that popped onto my keyboard.

(Sorry to call you on that, The A, we were getting on so well - but you did write it).

No worries, I'd write it again, too. It's just the way I type.

The incidence of violence against prostitutes tends to support my case, but I realize that might have multiple causes.

Which segues us nicely into the great imponderable. Let's say we actually shut down all hookers tomorrow, everywhere in the world. Would sexual violence rise or decrease? Be rather nasty if it turned out that by providing a [relatively] cheap outlet for male sexual frustration, prostitutes reduced the propensity for violence in society? I know that's drawing a longish bow as well, but the chance of it being real must exist. Even then, if prostitutes get attacked, are they saving "honourable" women from those attacks?

Another reason to respect prostitutes - they put their lives on the line for their work. Not too many people have to do that.

And the contempt goes in the opposite direction, of course. Most prostitutes despise their clients. Part of their job is to conceal that contempt.

Generalisation again. Frequently, but not always, true.

And the rest of their job is to provide an inauthentic, fake experience.

How's it fake? The man pays to ejaculate inside the woman and usually does. Nothing fake about that. Prostitutes sometimes fake excitement, but even stranger, sometimes they actually get excited.

When lovers make love, they often say "I love you"; they like to say the words, and they like to hear them.

You can pay a prostitute to tell you she loves you, and to look like she means it - but it's a lie, and you both know it.

I bet I've told that lie more than most prostitutes! I don't know of that being something a prostitute would willingly say. Rare instances maybe.

Likewise, you can pay a prostitute to pretend she fancies you (she doesn't), to pretend she loves you (she doesn't), to pretend you're turning her on (you aren't), to pretend you've made her come (you haven't), or to pretend it all means something (it doesn't).

And while you continue to suspend your disbelief, you can enjoy the the show and the acting.

But when you come out of the theatre, you have to admit that what you saw wasn't real.

Again, I could think of any number of one-nighters I've had which meets all those criteria!

PS Edit plus - maybe I should clarify - in spite of the negative attitude that I display above, I still think that there is nothing ethically wrong in prostitution between consenting adults (the women put on an act, and the men are free to believe it or not) - and that it should not be illegal.

Fair enough. You're just generalising a little too far, in my opinion.

 

[The Great Hairy One]

Sex between lovers (at its best) is characterized by love, respect, honesty, and empathy; love has to given freely; it cannot be bought.

As soon as sex becomes part of a wider transaction, be it cash, cars, or security, all of that goes out of the window.

And the sex then becomes characterized by hatred, contempt, lies and self-interest.

What a load of rubbish!!

Sex can be quite physically satisfying when performed with a new acquaintance for which one's only feelings are either based on lust or self-interest. Sex can also be rather explosive and very enjoyable with someone who is simply a friend, with no love involved.

Don't make the common mistake of romance writers, and assume "sex = love", for that is a fallacy. The two can operate in complete isolation.

Prostitution is not a respectable profession.

If you want to insult a woman, you call her a 'whore'. If you want to insult a man, call him a 'son of a whore'.

So if I call a man a "son of a flea-ridden donkey", donkeys are not respectable? If I call a man a "fellatio performing bastard" (or words to that effect), does that mean homosexual oral sex is not respectable? Your argument here is spurious and trivial.

Cheers,
TGHO

 

[Gnu Ordure]

todd said :

Originally Posted by Gnu Ordure :

As soon as sex becomes part of a wider transaction, be it cash, cars, or security, all of that goes out of the window.

And the sex then becomes characterized by hatred, contempt, lies and self-interest.

I don't see how that second sentence follows from the first, especially the "lies" part.

.

Imagine you're on a hot date, Todd. You're in the restaurant, it's all going well, she's laughing at your jokes, she's putting out all the right signals...

Then, at the end of the main course, she suddenly says : "Look, sorry, I should have mentioned this before... but I'm a hooker. If you give me 500 dollars right now, the evening will continue exactly how you want it to, I promise. Otherwise, goodnight".

As soon as she says this, everything changes. You realize that she may not like you, let alone think you're funny. You realize she doesn't really want to sleep with you. You realize that anything she says or does from this moment on, you will be unable to take at face value. You realize that the good time you were both having was an illusion, and that you need to pay up to have the illusion continue.

For 'illusion', read 'lies'.

Sure, she's being honest. She's being honest about the fact that she's going to put on an act for you, if you pay her enough.


Gnu.

 

[toddjh]

Imagine you're on a hot date, Todd. You're in the restaurant, it's all going well, she's laughing at your jokes, she's putting out all the right signals...

Then, at the end of the main course, she suddenly says : "Look, sorry, I should have mentioned this before... but I'm a hooker. If you give me 500 dollars right now, the evening will continue exactly how you want it to, I promise. Otherwise, goodnight".

As soon as she says this, everything changes. You realize that she may not like you, let alone think you're funny. You realize she doesn't really want to sleep with you. You realize that the good time you were both having was an illusion, and that you need to pay up to have the illusion continue.

For 'illusion', read 'lies'.

Sure, she's being honest. She's being honest about the fact that she's going to put on act for you, if you pay her enough.

Er...I don't know what to say except to repeat my earlier statement: the people in your hypothetical situations have serious issues. I don't think I've ever heard of a bait-and-switch hooker who sits through a date before asking for money -- they have work to do, you know. I've heard of a few cases of mistaken identity where guys haven't realized the woman they're talking to is a prostitute at first, but that's just miscommunication and not deception.

But to respond to your contrived scenario, I'd tell her, "Oh, sorry, I thought this was a date. See you later." Sure, I'd be disappointed, but only because the woman I went out with turned out to be some kind of manipulative compulsive liar or something.

Anyway, I don't think your example is especially meaningful. You're inserting dishonesty into it by fiat, then pointing and saying, "Look! It's dishonest!" I can't imagine any real world situation proceeding along those lines.

 

[Gnu Ordure]

What a load of rubbish!!

You're missing my point. TGHO. In the examples you give :

Sex can be quite physically satisfying when performed with a new acquaintance for which one's only feelings are either based on lust or self-interest. Sex can also be rather explosive and very enjoyable with someone who is simply a friend, with no love involved.

... there is no ulterior motive, there is no transaction beyond a mutual desire for a sexual experience...

An honest meeting between autonomous individuals...

Casual, perhaps, but not paid for..

... So no problem.

I'm not talking about that kind of situation. I'm talking about buying and selling.

Don't make the common mistake of romance writers, and assume "sex = love", for that is a fallacy. The two can operate in complete isolation.

I agree entirely.

My fundamental point is that while money can buy you sex...

.. money can't buy you love.



It can however buy you a facsimile of loving sex.




Gnu.

 

[Wheezebucket]

Don't push your weird social hang-ups on the rest of us. Your examples are laughable, and you still have yet to make a point against prostitution that's worth considering.

If only people could get past their moral highground BS and tv-show inspired dreamscapes, we could move on to the actual problems involving the biz.

 

[Gnu Ordure]

I've heard of a few cases of mistaken identity where guys haven't realized the woman they're talking to is a prostitute at first,

That's exactly the situation in my contrived scenario, Todd. You think you're on a date, but there's been a misunderstanding, she's a hooker.

As you say, you've heard of similar cases...

So, in this hypothetical scenario, you say you would tell her, "Oh, sorry, I thought this was a date. See you later."

Fair enough.

Which kind of proves my point. The introduction of a financial transaction changed everything about your experience. One minute you were enjoying your date and feeling warm and affectionate and horny... the next minute you've terminated the encounter, because you realize it's been fake.

Alternatively, you might go with the pretence. You give her the money, neither of you mentions it again. Everything proceeds exactly as it might have done.

But is it the same ? No, the financial transaction has changed everything. Nothing means the same. Nothing feels the same. Nothing is the same.

Gnu.

 

[The Atheist]

You think you're on a date, but there's been a misunderstanding, she's a hooker.

I can't imagine that scenario ever arising. Hookers have a vested interest in not wasting time like that.

If someone tells you that story, I vote lie.

Talking to one in a bar not realising she's a hooker - obviously, that's what they do - but they will let you know early on; time is money. About $150 an hour.

 

[The Great Hairy One]

Casual, perhaps, but not paid for..

... So no problem.

Why does "paying" for sex make it wrong???

I'm not talking about that kind of situation. I'm talking about buying and selling.

There is nothing wrong with buying and selling sex. The only reason some people think that it is wrong is because their morality has been corrupted by an outdated and restrictive religious viewpoint which should have been abandoned 300 years ago during the Enlightenment.

My fundamental point is that while money can buy you sex...

.. money can't buy you love.

From your previous posts, it seems to me that your fundamental point is that "prostitution is BAD!!". I'm pointing out that prostitution is not bad, it is, in fact, quite good.

It can however buy you a facsimile of loving sex.

And what is wrong with that? Some people are lonely, or require an outlet for their sexuality. They may not have a regular sexual partner, and feel like having some sex. What's wrong with these people visiting a prostitute to fulfill that desire?

When I watch a movie, or read a sci-fi book, I don't expect real life to replicate or duplicate that experience. That doesn't lessen my enjoyment of the fantasy though.

Cheers,
TGHO