What to do with prostitutes

[Z]

I see I have succeeded.

When logic fails, attack on a personal level or rant.

Regards
DL.

Interestingly, I did neither.

Nothing in that was an attack on a personal level. It was merely based on observation.

This would be an attack on a personal level: "I wish I had never seduced your mama, 'cuz we've BOTH been regretting your birth."

It may have been considered a 'rant', though I've ranted at greater length and with greater vitriole on far more trivial subjects.

But the fact remains, whatever it was or was not, it contained the truth of the matter: that there is nothing inherently wrong with prostitution, while there is something wrong with people who thing something is wrong with prostitution.

And since you fail to address any points in my post, I see that I am correct.

Regards,

The Rev.

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

Or perhaps you just want to get laid, without playing stupid games or getting involved in distracting emotional attachments. Sex and love should not be intrinsically tied together these days. So instead of wasting good time and money at the bar, you cruise to the strip, pick up the dish of the day, do your business, and move on. No 'will you call me in the morning' crap, no 'I thought you loved me' garbage.

Prostitution can be a good thing, if anal-retentive simpletons stop trying to treat it as inherently bad.

Here, here.

 

[Loss Leader]

Sex has traditionally been connected with love.

Once again you make a statement based on nothing other than your own personal beliefs and informed by no actual knowledge. As late as a hundred year ago and going back hundreds and even thousands of years, marriages have been arranged throughout much of the Western world. Even today in Japan, Korea, India, Mongolia and other countries, arranged marriages continue in appreciable numbers. At least two of my great-grandparents' marriages were arranged.

And throughout history, these marriages have produced children. There has been sex. Sometimes it has been joyless "think of England" sex, sometimes it may have been passionate but emotionally empty sex, sometimes it may have been good for a while and gotten terrible as a couple aged or drifted apart. But there was sex.

So exactly how has sex "traditionally" been associated with love? What is your evidence of this other than that's how you think it should have been?

And then explain why the "traditional" view should be the prevailing view. Women were traditionally thought of as property, the earth was traditionally believed to be flat - should we return to these traditional views?

GIA - your life will be a lot easier if you just repeat after me: "I believe prostitution is bad. I believe it for entirely personal reasons. I believe it as a matter of faith. I do not intend my belief to serve as evidence or to convince anyone to modify their position. For me, however, I am satisfied that I have adopted a reasonable, workable and correct position."

You'll feel better almost instantly, I promise.

 

[Lonewulf]

True.

We have been abusing and demeaning ourselves for many years.
Buyers delude themselves into thinking that they are not demeaned.
Hookers are more honest.


Regards
DL

So you're taking back the claim that prostitution is destroying "traditional love"?

Traditionally, prostitution has existed in every society. YOUR judgment of "love" is NOT traditional.

Before "love at first sight" (a traditional view of romance in today's society), there existed "love at first marriage". I.E., you get married to someone by arranged marriage, and then you show love and devotion to your mate. The traditional view (and this was true all throughout the middle ages) was that first came the marriage, then came the love. Our view of love would be as alien to them as theirs is to us; and places like India still have similar views.

Prostitution, however, has existed all throughout time, and usually in very different ways. You imagine a prostitute as a streetwalker with sexually transmitted diseases and looking like she was hit with a semi-truck going 100 MPH. I imagine someone offering sex as, say, being a priestess of the goddess Aphrodite, offering her services to those that come to pray. (I'm not entirely sure it was necessarily done in this way, but there were women who devoted themselves to a life of pleasure).

I also can imagine prostitutes in high-resort locations, taking ludicrous bucks form the bigwigs to show them a good night in the sack. No STDs, an entirely legal transaction, and a woman that gets to put her kids through college.

While you equate "prostitution in general" with "child sex", I'm sitting over here laughing at your ridiculously small-minded view of the trade. While you equate "prostitution in general" with "diseased streetwalker", I just laugh harder.

 

[The Great Hairy One]

Didn't we sort this issue out in that discussion with Dan already?

Cheers,
TGHO

 

[Greatest I am]

Once again you make a statement based on nothing other than your own personal beliefs and informed by no actual knowledge. As late as a hundred year ago and going back hundreds and even thousands of years, marriages have been arranged throughout much of the Western world. Even today in Japan, Korea, India, Mongolia and other countries, arranged marriages continue in appreciable numbers. At least two of my great-grandparents' marriages were arranged.

And throughout history, these marriages have produced children. There has been sex. Sometimes it has been joyless "think of England" sex, sometimes it may have been passionate but emotionally empty sex, sometimes it may have been good for a while and gotten terrible as a couple aged or drifted apart. But there was sex.

So exactly how has sex "traditionally" been associated with love? What is your evidence of this other than that's how you think it should have been?

And then explain why the "traditional" view should be the prevailing view. Women were traditionally thought of as property, the earth was traditionally believed to be flat - should we return to these traditional views?

GIA - your life will be a lot easier if you just repeat after me: "I believe prostitution is bad. I believe it for entirely personal reasons. I believe it as a matter of faith. I do not intend my belief to serve as evidence or to convince anyone to modify their position. For me, however, I am satisfied that I have adopted a reasonable, workable and correct position."

You'll feel better almost instantly, I promise.

The library is full of books depicting romantic love and sex.
I see few books showing pay for sex.

Do I really need to show the connection.

Any one who has had both romantic sex and paid sex will agree that romantic sex is better. Especially women.
Men who can use a knot hole happily, will not agree. Then again few of these will know anything about romantic sex.

Those who have been raised in a loving atmosphere will know the difference between it and the atmosphere where there is no love.

Perhaps as Loss leader indicates, placing a price on brides is the way to go.
Perhaps the sign of the beast is a number assigned to us to show our worth and buying ability. Perhaps the creation of a cast system would be better then we would all know on which streets to go shopping for our partners.

A great system for the young but then what happens to the old.
Who cares unless they have good body perts and tight spots.

What a wonderful world that would be.

Men should recognize that paid for sex is a poor second to romantic sex. Real men will ask their women and try to please. The other, "so called men" will not care to share. They pay for seconds.

Regards
DL

 

[Lonewulf]

The library is full of books depicting romantic love and sex.
I see few books showing pay for sex.

Don Quixote.

There were also plenty of books, like Song of Roland, or Beowulf, of men doing supernatural and outright superhuman things. Do you believe supermen exist?

Like Beowulf; able to hold his breath for three days underwater?

You're talking about overdone literature of the past, that had no view on reality.

 

[Greatest I am]

Don Quixote.

There were also plenty of books, like Song of Roland, or Beowulf, of men doing supernatural and outright superhuman things. Do you believe supermen exist?

Like Beowulf; able to hold his breath for three days underwater?

You're talking about overdone literature of the past, that had no view on reality.

Not only the past but the present as well.
Many modern authors would argue with you. Not I.

I do have a quick one for you though.

Did we agree that romantic sex is better than simply pay for sex.

Or do you know the difference.

Regards
DL

 

[Lonewulf]

Not only the past but the present as well.
Many modern authors would argue with you. Not I.

And?

I do have a quick one for you though.

Did we agree that romantic sex is better than simply pay for sex.

Sex is sex.

Or do you know the difference.

Sex is sex.

Out of curiosity:

Did you ever refer to the point that prostitution has been around since the beginning of humankind? It can't "erode away at" romantic love. It's lived side by side every single interpretation of "romantic love".

Prostitution is the one constant in societies. YOUR version of romantic love is not.

If you want to get rid of it, go ahead. I'll refer back to Don Quixote, though; keep attacking your windmills. They'll just break your lance and knock you on your ass.

 

[Greatest I am]

And?



Sex is sex.



Sex is sex.

Out of curiosity:

Did you ever refer to the point that prostitution has been around since the beginning of humankind? It can't "erode away at" romantic love. It's lived side by side every single interpretation of "romantic love".

Prostitution is the one constant in societies. YOUR version of romantic love is not.

If you want to get rid of it, go ahead. I'll refer back to Don Quixote, though; keep attacking your windmills. They'll just break your lance and knock you on your ass.

The ideals of love, hate and prostitution are so intertwined with history that it impossible to know what came first, unless you have information that I don't.
You would need to show why the ideals of love would "erode away" faster than those of prostitution.
You do not want to take my word on much and I do not take your here.

Better to fight on than to give up and forget about ideals of love.

It is unfortunate that with you, sex with a loved one, is no better than sex with a hooker.

Regards
DL

 

[Lonewulf]

The ideals of love, hate and prostitution are so intertwined with history that it impossible to know what came first, unless you have information that I don't.
You would need to show why the ideals of love would "erode away" faster than those of prostitution.

Uh, no, YOU would need to, since it was your claim that prostitution would attack the idea of romantic love.

 

[Loss Leader]

The library is full of books depicting romantic love and sex.
I see few books showing pay for sex.

Moll Flanders and Candide.

The Epic of Gilgamesh, the oldest written story in human history, has a prostitute in it. "Gilgamesh leaped up and in his great voice cried: "Set this trap. Take back with you the sacred temple girl, Shamhat. Shamhat has civilizing charm. Shamhat has civilizing skills." Gilgamesh literally hires a prostitute to help tame the wild man Enkidu.

Do I really need to show the connection.

You stated, "sex has traditionally been connected with love." You have shown no evidence of this. So, yes, you do need to support your point with evidence.

Any one who has had both romantic sex and paid sex will agree that romantic sex is better.

First of all, you have no evidence for that statement. Who is this "anyone"? Where can I read the results of this study?

Second of all, that's not what you said. You said:

Sex has traditionally been connected with love.

This said nothing about which was "better." How does your argument that romantic love is "better" make it more likely that sex has been traditionally connected with love?

Perhaps as Loss leader indicates, placing a price on brides is the way to go.

I never advocated any such thing. All I did was point out that much sex, even much sex within marriage has not traditionally been associated with love in the Western world and many other countries. I did so to show that you once again stated your own personal preference as though it were historical fact. Don't put words in my mouth.

Men should recognize that paid for sex is a poor second to romantic sex.

Perhaps. However, this has not been your point up until now. It is not the point of the thread. And you still haven't supported this point with any evidence.

Real men will ask their women and try to please. The other, "so called men" will not care to share. They pay for seconds.

But what would a true Scotsman do?

 

[Greatest I am]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Legalized Prostitution[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Every so often, Canadians are urged to legalize prostitution. Proponents claim that this will eliminate crime, encourage prostitutes to leave the streets and work in safe environments (brothels), stop the illicit drug trade, which is always closely allied to prostitution, and improve the health of prostitutes by way of regular medical checks-ups.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Unfortunately, this theory is pure fantasy. One has only to look to the jurisdictions that have legalized prostitution to recognize the disaster it has been. For example, several Australian states, such as Victoria in the mid-1980s, and New South Wales in 1995, have legalized prostitution. These states are now struggling with the fall-out. (During the debate on legalized prostitution, one of the legislators in Victoria argued that legalizing prostitution would bring a better class of women into the trade!)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The most immediate result of legalizing "the trade" was that all forms of prostitution boomed, with the unregulated prostitution business increasing faster than the legal prostitution activities. Municipal councils immediately complained that prostitution was out of control. Organized crime enjoyed a field day. With business becoming so good, shootings and deaths quickly followed with gangs fighting for control of this lucrative sex trade. Moreover, because prostitution itself was legal, police made few checks on brothels, with the result that they quickly became ideal locations for drug connections. Posing as clients, the drug dealers thrived, completely assured of privacy for their transactions.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Prostitutes working out of the brothels also quickly became disillusioned with the arrangement. The madams treated them like cattle in a meat market. They were forced to work 14-hour shifts seven days a week. They were restricted to the premises, except for medical or hairdressing appointments, and were always accompanied by an escort. The pimps, of course, retained absolute control of the prostitutes by comfortably operating out of the brothel environment.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Even the highly lauded medical check-ups of the prostitutes were, in reality, meaningless. The prostitutes moved around too often to keep track of them and if one did become infected with a sexually transmitted disease, another prostitute simply went to the check-up in her place, using the infected woman's medical card.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Sweden is another example of a jurisdiction that legalized prostitution - 30 years ago - and lived to regret it. Prostitution flourished, with one in ten Swedish males buying such services. The drug trade expanded too, with at least half of Swedish prostitutes becoming drug addicts. Interestingly, it is frequently argued that women become prostitutes because they are economically disadvantaged. However, in Sweden, with its cradle-to-grave social welfare policies, this is not the case. According to a Swedish government report released in April 1995, women in Sweden entered into prostitution because they regarded it as "easy money." As a result, Sweden amended its legislation in May 1998, which made the purchase of sexual services from a prostitute a criminal offence, imposing either a fine or imprisonment up to a maximum of 6 months. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Obviously, legalizing prostitution is no solution to the problem and, in fact, opens the door to even more serious problems. Canadians must take a firm stand on this issue[/FONT]

Regards
DL

 

[Loss Leader]

Every so often, Canadians are urged to legalize prostitution. Proponents claim that this will eliminate crime ...

GIA, what do you believe this essay is evidence of?

First of all, you didn't write it. We know you didn'w write it because it stays on point. But since you didn't write it, we have no idea what truth value to assign it. Where did you get it? Who wrote it? Why should we believe him or her?

And here begins a second problem - this essay does not cite any sources. How can we check that what the author asserts as true actually is true? What sources did the author use?

Even then, this is nothing but an opinion piece. It is an editorial. If I post an editorial in favor of legalized prostitution, does that make the score even?

And here we encounter an odd occurance - the arguments in this essay are almost completely dissimilar to your own arguments. The author talks about the difficulty tracking prostitutes while you have been talking about how romantic love is moral and sex for pay is not. The author writes about increases in illegal drug activity while you have argued that child abuse and prostitution share some connection. So should we disregard your arguments and talk about these?

But there's a reason that your arguments and this article have so little in common - this article does not support your main point. Your point, to the extent that you've formed it, appears to be that all prostitution is always bad for all individuals involved. This article has nothing to do with that. It doesn't address ridding a city of prostitution completely. It doesn't address the underlying causes of prostitution. It is, in fact, irrelevant to your main point.

Please focus on what it is you are trying to argue, collect your facts and present them. Copying other people's homework is never the right answer.

 

[Greatest I am]

Survivors of Prostitution and Trafficking Manifesto
Author(s): Various

Survivors of Prostitution and Trafficking Manifesto
Press Conference – European Parliament

Trafficking and Sexual Exploitation
“Who Represents Women in Prostitution?”
October 17, 2005

We, the survivors of prostitution and trafficking gathered at this press conference today, declare that prostitution is violence against women.

Women in prostitution do not wake up one day and “choose” to be prostitutes. It is chosen for us by poverty, past sexual abuse, the pimps who take advantage of our vulnerabilities, and the men who buy us for the sex of prostitution.

Prostitution is sexual exploitation, one of the worst forms of women’s inequality, and a violation of any person’s human rights.

Many women in prostitution have been severely injured, some have died, and some have been murdered by their pimps and customers.

Physical violence, rape and degradation are often inflicted on us by customers, pimps, recruiters, police and others who gain from prostitution. The public either judges us as “whores” or thinks we make a lot of money.

The condition of women in prostitution is worsened by laws and policies that treat us as criminals and the scum of society, while customers, pimps, managers and sex business owners are not made accountable. Our condition is also made worse by giving licenses to prostitution enterprises and legal protection to pimps, customers and the sex industry

Most women are drawn into prostitution at a young age. The average age of entrance into prostitution worldwide is 13.

Victims of prostitution and trafficking have almost no resources to help them exit. Programs that provide alternatives for women in prostitution are very few.

Women in prostitution dream of a life free from oppression, a life that is safe, and a life where we can participate as citizens, and where we can exercise our rights as human beings, not as “sex workers.”

We, survivors from Belgium, Denmark, Korea, the UK and the United States declare:

1. Prostitution must be eliminated. Thus, it should not be legalized or promoted.

2. Trafficked and prostituted women need services to help them create a future outside of prostitution, including legal and fiscal amnesty, financial assistance, job training, employment, housing, health services, legal advocacy, residency permits, and cultural mediators and language training for victims of international trafficking.

3. Women in prostitution need governments to punish traffickers, pimps and men who buy women for prostitution and to provide safety and security from those who would harm them.

4. Stop arresting women and arrest the perpetrators of trafficking and prostitution.

5. Stop police harassment of women in prostitution and deportation of trafficked women.

6. Prostitution is not “sex work,” and sex trafficking is not “migration for sex work.” Governments should stop legalizing and decriminalizing the sex industry and giving pimps and buyers legal permission to abuse women in prostitution.
As survivors of prostitution and trafficking, we will continue to strengthen and broaden our unity, help any woman out of prostitution, and work with our allies to promote the human rights of victims of trafficking and prostitution.

What is intrinsically evil about prostitution.
From the horses mouth

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Chill.

Just putting a few facts out there.

As far as proof, proof, proof.

If I ever get in front of a judge i might supply proof.
Here it would not be believed by those who do not want to anyway.

The first insert was a Government printing. Believe it or not. The net is full of the same. You want proof go find whatever you will believe.

The second speaks for itself.

As to my focus and being on topic.
Good questions usually keep me on tract. If not. well, what can I say.

Regards
DL

 

[Gnu Ordure]

GIA, I see you finally answered the question on the fundamental rightness/wrongness of prostitution between consenting adults in a non-exploitative context ....

having to buy sex shows people not developing the social skills required to find sexual release without money.

Wow, that's it ? That's what we've been waiting for, for six pages ? Prostitution is wrong because it demonstrates the truism that some people have fewer social skills than others ?

Sorry, GIA, I need you to explain that 'because'.

I understand that some people have fewer social skills than others; I am prepared to temporarily concede, for the sake of the argument, that people who pay for sex have fewer social skills than others.

I don't understand how you conclude from this that paying for sex is wrong/immoral/unethical.


Here's an anology. My family of origin abused me badly. As a result, I have few social skills, and I'm incapable of maintaining adult relationships. I have no friends, let alone a partner.

So each week, I go downtown and I pay a woman money to spend an hour of her life with me, to focus on me, to listen to me, to comfort me, to help me and to hold me.

We don't talk about her, I don't even know if she's married, or whether she has children - I don't ask. I want someone to listen to me.

Is this wrong, GIA ?

I agree that it amply demonstrates my lack of social skills. If I had some friends, maybe I wouldn't need to rent someone in this way.

I also agree that in a perfect world (eg a world in which I wasn't abused as a child), I probably wouldn't need to pay for what most people achieve naturally.

But I don't live in a perfect world, and neither does anyone else.

So if I feel the need to hire someone to be with me, I will do that, on the basis of a freely-entered-into contract between autonomous adults, and I don't think I'm doing anything wrong.





The woman that I refer to above is, of course, my psychotherapist, rather than a prostitute.

But the principle is the same.

In just the same way that your logic leads you to regard prostitution as wrong, it would lead you to conclude that psychotherapy is wrong.






Gnu.


PS : "Men should recognize that paid for sex is a poor second to romantic sex."

Perhaps men do recognize that, but some also recognize that 'no sex' is a poor third to 'paid-for-sex'.

 

[Loss Leader]

Just putting a few facts out there.

This is obviously some new and unique definition of the word "facts" that I was previously unaware of.

 

[The Atheist]

Survivors of Prostitution and Trafficking Manifesto
Author(s): Various

Survivors of Prostitution and Trafficking Manifesto
Press Conference – European Parliament

Trafficking and Sexual Exploitation
“Who Represents Women in Prostitution?”
October 17, 2005

Women in prostitution do not wake up one day and “choose” to be prostitutes.

(...snipped after the first lie...)

From the horses mouth

Regards
DL

bolding mine.


Why do you bother?

That statement almost certainly applies to the women who co-signed the report, but is wrong. It's wrong for a huge number of prostitutes, who did indeed, "wake up one morning and decide to be hookers".

If you're going to come and try to garner support for your position, being honest is the first essential. The stoopid bitches who wrote the report made a far worse cock-up than yours - at least yours is only an anonymous internet post, but they've put their name to a public document which is demonstrably bollocks. Obviously, people with similar agendas [think of anyone?] are likely to use it to support destroy their case.

Hardly worth dignifying with refutation, but sometimes that itch just has to be scratched.



<<walks off.... "now I know why I've avoided this thread for so long"...>>

 

[The Atheist]

PS : "Men should recognize that paid for sex is a poor second to romantic sex."

Oh weally, Woger?

Them's fighting words! Sex is sex and money is money. The money's in the drawer, the sex is on the floor.... How is it a "poor second"? Your mind, your therapist or your wife tell you that?

[All the above to be taken in the nicest possible way, of course!]