What is the definition of “I”? -- “I” is the software which runs on neural-network-HW

[neuroclusterbrain]

Question for other readers #4:
Who else thinks that he has "consciousness"? Please raise your hand and come closer. We will put your "consciousness" to the test.

What competency are you claiming to be able to "test" anything?

Question for Kid Eager: does Kid Eager have strong religious fanatic faith that Kid Eager posses “consciousness”? what is your answer: “Yes” or “No”?

In case of “Yes”, please answer the same three questions which were given to barehl:

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Question for the Kid Eager #1:
Kid Eager , please provide us the exact list of exact criteria (the list of exact features) which would allow unambiguously determine if object X has consciousness.
Just feel free to choose all the needed characteristics of object X (size, weight, color, smell, or whatever you might need) and when the list is complete, then show this list to us.
And we will put to the test your list of characteristics, we will test your list on real world examples to see if it works or not.
When a man uses a term/word which he is unable to define then it is quite obvious that such man does not understand himself what he is talking about, it is obvious that his speech is meaningless by definition, isn’t it?

Question for the Kid Eager #2:
the consciousness is a 1) divisible object, or 2) indivisible object?
The feature divisibility/indivisibility is the most fundamental feature of the object, because it instantaneously reveals the fundamental flaws in the definition of the object.
So, what is your answer: the consciousness is a 1) divisible object, or 2) indivisible object?
Also please provide experimental proofs which would support your claim about “divisibility/indivisibility of consciousness”.

Question for the Kid Eager #3:
Kid Eager, please provide at least one evidence that Kid Eager has “consciousness”.
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[Donn]

Are you sure you're not a bot?

 

[neuroclusterbrain]

Are you sure you're not a bot?

All readers who have strong religious fanatic faith that they posses “consciousness” – please raise your hand and come closer. We will put your "consciousness" to the test.

Question for all readers who have strong religious fanatic faith that they posses “consciousness”, question #4:
Does the bot have consciousness or not?

 

[Donn]

Um, how many clusters should raise their hand within each sub-cluster, and do dream hands count?

 

[neuroclusterbrain]

It is interesting to note that pseudoscientists claim that high level of intelligence is needed in order to possess abstraction capabilities, however it is very easy to disprove this claim.
We will remind that all organisms are able to distinguish “food” from “non-food”.
However “food” and “non-food” are abstract objects.
And that means that all organisms have abstraction capabilities.

The mere fact that an organism consumes certain items and not others is not evidence that it is carrying out an abstraction process. "Upwards" and "downwards" are abstract concepts, but that doesn't mean that freely-falling house bricks have abstraction capabilities.

The difference between the house brick and the intelligent agent is in the internal ability to initiate activity towards achieving goals. Intelligent agent has the ability to initiate activity and the house brick lacks this ability. House brick is freely-falling because outside forces are pushing the brick.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_agent
In artificial intelligence, an intelligent agent (IA) is an autonomous entity which observes through sensors and acts upon an environment using actuators (i.e. it is an agent) and directs its activity towards achieving goals (i.e. it is rational). Intelligent agents may also learn or use knowledge to achieve their goals. They may be very simple or very complex: a reflex machine such as a thermostat is an intelligent agent, as is a human being, as is a community of human beings working together towards a goal.
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In computer science there is a field called “pattern recognition” which deals with “object/pattern classification”. Abstraction is the ability to do object classification.
Organisms live in the environment surrounded by various objects of various shape/size/color/etc. Organisms initiate different activity towards “food” and “non-food” objects which proves that organisms have the ability to classify the surrounding objects into the classes of “food” and “non-food”, which means that by definition the organisms have abstraction capabilities.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_recognition
An example of pattern recognition is classification, which attempts to assign each input value to one of a given set of classes (for example, determine whether a given email is "spam" or "non-spam")

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_classification
In machine learning and statistics, classification is the problem of identifying to which of a set of categories (sub-populations) a new observation belongs, on the basis of a training set of data containing observations (or instances) whose category membership is known. An example would be assigning a given email into "spam" or "non-spam" classes or assigning a diagnosis to a given patient as described by observed characteristics of the patient (gender, blood pressure, presence or absence of certain symptoms, etc.).
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstraction
"An abstraction" is the product of this process—a concept that acts as a super-categorical noun for all subordinate concepts, and connects any related concepts as a group, field, or category.
Conceptual abstractions may be formed by filtering the information content of a concept or an observable phenomenon, selecting only the aspects which are relevant for a particular purpose.
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[Donn]

At what point in the chain of physics from eating to energy is there a difference in blind forces alike to gravity working on a brick?

 

[barehl]

Barehl’s “cognitive theory” is based on strong religious fanatic faith that barehl posses “consciousness”. Barehl can believe whatever he wants, however this is religion, this is not science.

I do have to thank you for some things. You have shown me the hazard of developing ideas in isolation. You've demonstrated the risk of treating ideas as children to be nurtured and protected rather than making them earn their keep. You've illustrated the temptation of filling in significant gaps with "seems good enough to me" rather than using boilerplate logic and relevant evidence. And you've delivered a solid proof that attacking someone else's ideas doesn't make your own any more rational or useful. Thank you.

 

[tsig]

Um, how many clusters should raise their hand within each sub-cluster, and do dream hands count?

How many clusters does it take to make a clusterflock?

 

[Donn]

Turds of a lather cluster to gather.

 

[barehl]

The difference between the house brick and the intelligent agent is in the internal ability to initiate activity towards achieving goals. Intelligent agent has the ability to initiate activity and the house brick lacks this ability.

So a Venus fly trap would be an intelligent agent.

In computer science there is a field called “pattern recognition” which deals with “object/pattern classification”. Abstraction is the ability to do object classification.
Organisms live in the environment surrounded by various objects of various shape/size/color/etc. Organisms initiate different activity towards “food” and “non-food” objects which proves that organisms have the ability to classify the surrounding objects into the classes of “food” and “non-food”, which means that by definition the organisms have abstraction capabilities.

So an amoeba has abstraction capabilities.

 

[Donn]

So a Venus fly trap would be an intelligent agent.


So an amoeba has abstraction capabilities.

Indeed — I wonder what the smallest eater is? A bacterium of some noun? Does a virus eat?

Whatever, there is some scale at which the food is about the same size as the consumer. There is no room for neurons, let alone clusters of them, and yet it still eats.

It's as if the molecules simply could not be other than their roles.

 

[neuroclusterbrain]

I do have to thank you for some things. You have shown me the hazard of developing ideas in isolation. You've demonstrated the risk of treating ideas as children to be nurtured and protected rather than making them earn their keep. You've illustrated the temptation of filling in significant gaps with "seems good enough to me" rather than using boilerplate logic and relevant evidence. And you've delivered a solid proof that attacking someone else's ideas doesn't make your own any more rational or useful. Thank you.

Barehl is using appeal to emotion which is a logical fallacy and does not meet the scientific criteria.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion
Appeal to emotion or argumentum ad passiones is a logical fallacy characterized by the manipulation of the recipient's emotions in order to win an argument, especially in the absence of factual evidence. This kind of appeal to emotion is a type of red herring and encompasses several logical fallacies, including appeal to consequences, appeal to fear, appeal to flattery, appeal to pity, appeal to ridicule, appeal to spite, and wishful thinking.
Instead of facts, persuasive language is used to develop the foundation of an appeal to emotion-based argument. Thus, the validity of the premises that establish such an argument does not prove to be verifiable.
Appeals to emotion are intended to draw visceral feelings from the acquirer of the information. And in turn, the acquirer of the information is intended to be convinced that the statements that were presented in the fallacious argument are true; solely on the basis that the statements may induce emotional stimulation such as fear, pity and joy. Though these emotions may be provoked by an appeal to emotion fallacy, effectively winning the argument, substantial proof of the argument is not offered, and the argument's premises remain invalid.
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[Donn]

Barehl is using appeal to emotion which is a logical fallacy and does not meet the scientific criteria.

And you are being a tone-deaf Borg who could be communicating but would rather chide, flood and repeat.

 

[neuroclusterbrain]

So a Venus fly trap would be an intelligent agent.
So an amoeba has abstraction capabilities.

Do your homework – go to the university library, go to the section where computer science books are located (not the books about theology/literature/other_pseudosciences), then take the textbooks about the theory of artificial intelligence, about pattern recognition/classification, about intelligent agents – and study these textbooks very carefully. Do your homework – study real science. And then you will understand what the difference is between: 1) real science and 2) religious dogmas about “consciousness” and other claptrap superstitions.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_agent
In artificial intelligence, an intelligent agent (IA) is an autonomous entity which observes through sensors and acts upon an environment using actuators (i.e. it is an agent) and directs its activity towards achieving goals (i.e. it is rational). Intelligent agents may also learn or use knowledge to achieve their goals. They may be very simple or very complex: a reflex machine such as a thermostat is an intelligent agent, as is a human being, as is a community of human beings working together towards a goal.
=======================

Indeed — I wonder what the smallest eater is? A bacterium of some noun? Does a virus eat?
Whatever, there is some scale at which the food is about the same size as the consumer. There is no room for neurons, let alone clusters of them, and yet it still eats.

Agent does not need to have neurons in order to be intelligent agent. As for example chess-playing computer does not have neurons. Just do your homework – study the textbooks about theory of artificial intelligence, about pattern recognition/classification, about intelligent agents.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_intelligence
Artificial intelligence (AI) is the intelligence exhibited by machines or software. It is also the name of the academic field of study which studies how to create computers and computer software that are capable of intelligent behavior. Major AI researchers and textbooks define this field as "the study and design of intelligent agents", in which an intelligent agent is a system that perceives its environment and takes actions that maximize its chances of success. John McCarthy, who coined the term in 1955, defines it as "the science and engineering of making intelligent machines".
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[asydhouse]

I'm not at all convinced that lucid dreaming is a subject delimited from nonsense by any serious pale.

What they call lucid dreaming is simply becoming aware during a dream that you are in fact having a dream.

I have done it on occasion. It's only because you've been talking/thinking about it that you might suddenly remember during a dream that something isn't normal, and that triggers your remembering the concept of lucid dreaming/dreaming, and so you suddenly realise "this is a dream!"

It's quite exciting initially, and it's possible to consciously start flying, which I did once, and didn't scare myself and wake up too soon, either. I enjoyed flying!

Another time I started saying to other people in my dream "this is a dream! We are dreaming!" and those other people in my dream started looking at me just as if we were all awake and I had started shouting about us all being in a dream: they all looked worried and suspicious, as if I were a danger to them, as I was a ranting madman.

That was frustrating. It's embarrassing to admit that I was convinced that the others were really other people, and we were all meeting in dreamland. When I woke up, I realised that I'd been swept away by the woo of dreaming. You'll believe anything in a dream.

 

[ctamblyn]

[...]

Organisms live in the environment surrounded by various objects of various shape/size/color/etc. Organisms initiate different activity towards “food” and “non-food” objects which proves that organisms have the ability to classify the surrounding objects into the classes of “food” and “non-food”, which means that by definition the organisms have abstraction capabilities.

[...]

Well, like barehl said, it persuades us of nothing of the sort because by your argument, Venus fly traps and amoebas are performing abstraction. To emphasise the point I will add enzymes to that list (which selectively attach to items), and even individual atoms (which have different chemical interactions with different types of atom).

 

[Donn]

What they call lucid dreaming is simply becoming aware during a dream that you are in fact having a dream.

I knew this, and you tell it well, but my problem with it is also something you reveal: you will believe anything in a dream — including the idea that you are awake in the dream.

Cue the Matrix.

 

[Donn]

Agent does not need to have neurons in order to be intelligent agent.

Okay, so your version of intelligence/agency/abstractocity* does not require neurons. What do neurons bring to the party?

* Because damned if I can find a way to make abstract fit there.

 

[barehl]

And then you will understand what the difference is between: 1) real science and 2) religious dogmas about “consciousness” and other claptrap superstitions.

You mean real science like astral projection, demon possession, seances, multiple personalities, and creating a Manchurian candidate, these things from your website.

 

[neuroclusterbrain]

Well, like barehl said, it persuades us of nothing of the sort because by your argument, Venus fly traps and amoeba are performing abstraction. To emphasise the point I will add enzymes to that list (which selectively attach to items), and even individual atoms (which have different chemical interactions with different types of atom).

As we have said before, prerequisites are required in order to understand the material. If the reader does not meet the prerequisites then he will misunderstand some parts of the material or even the whole material.

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http://registrar.utexas.edu/students/registration/before/prerequisites
A prerequisite is a course you must have completed before registering for another. Find out about prerequisites prior to registration using university catalogs, the course schedule, or our Prerequisite Check system.
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For this topic prerequisite are:
1) theory of artificial intelligence;
2) theory of pattern recognition/classification;
3) theory of intelligent agents.

Just do your homework and then you will understand what the difference is between: 1) real science and 2) religious dogmas about “consciousness” and other claptrap superstitions.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_agent
In artificial intelligence <…> thermostat is an intelligent agent
=======================

Okay, so your version of intelligence/agency/abstractocity* does not require neurons. What do neurons bring to the party?

That is not “our version”. That is the consensus version of scientists who work in the computer science fields named “theory of artificial intelligence”, “theory of pattern recognition/classification”, “theory of intelligent agents”. Just do your homework, study the textbooks from the university library.

What do neurons bring to the party?

“Neurons” is just the concrete implementation of the computing machine needed for the intelligent agent. Computing machine can be based on neural networks or it can be based on some other architecture/implementation.