What exactly does NIST say about collpase times

[911KookDetector]

NIST never said much about collapse time

Dr. Frank Greening calculated WTC1 Tc time at 12.6 seconds and WTC2 Tc time at 11.5 seconds. There's really no precise timing for 7WTC, simply because it's impossible to tell exactly when the internal collapse began.
I think Yong Zhou at MIT estimated that 7WTC took anywhere between 18 and 22 seconds to collapse, which is consistent with Lamont Doherty seismic records (which obviously show absolutely no indications of explosives at any point on 911).

911 truth can't do the math to figure this out. Why not? Why has 911 truth failed for 12 years to make progress?

Nope. I have been arguing with Twoofers for years and every time I ask them to back up their claims with sample calculations and equations that debunk NIST, SEI/ASCE, SEAoNY and literally every other major SE organization in the Western world, they either stop talking or resort to calling me a shill.
It's funny how after 12 years they still can't decide whether it was nanothermite (paint chips), explosives, space beams, underground mini-nukes, UFO's from Nibiru, the Jews, the US government, LIHOP etc.

 

[remo]

The speed of deceit

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZduP7HTM3cg&desktop_uri=/watch?v=ZduP7HTM3cg

What corroboration ARE you talking about ? Hess is filmed in dire jeopardy calling from the eighth story window 'I AM TRAPPED on 8th floor, 7 World Trade !? Barry Jennings, in clear recorded language two hours or so later tells us a 'MASSIVE EXPLOSION' blew the entire stairwell out from under them trapping them in WTC 7 BEFORE either tower came down. That is BEFORE Tower Two, and BEFORE Tower One. That is their primary source recorded evidence., their testimony: 'massive -explosion - trapped'
What corroboration that a "massive explosion" trapping them where they are recorded on the day need there be made in a court of LAW do you think? Who would argue Hess was fooling around? 'making up' the severity of damage he and Jennings survived? Or that Jennings couldn't find a way down until FDNY officers got to them AFTER the towers came down as a 'joke' ?? that they didn't TRY! Or that the one other eyewitness to their plight, an unknown man Barry Jennings introduced as coming to his aid saying " there was no way we could access them....both staircases were...the whole backside of the building was blown away... "...http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-XOK-r80nr8 are you arguing from the distance of your position that these men didn't know the 'backside of the building was blown away'? What possible corroboration that these two men were trapped by an explosive event in WTC 7 before the Towers came down would the Judge require at this point? Co-incidentally, in the same structural area later developing the 'kink' in FreeFall.

 

[LSSBB]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZduP7HTM3cg&desktop_uri=/watch?v=ZduP7HTM3cg

What corroboration ARE you talking about ? Hess is filmed in dire jeopardy calling from the eighth story window 'I AM TRAPPED on 8th floor, 7 World Trade !? Barry Jennings, in clear recorded language two hours or so later tells us a 'MASSIVE EXPLOSION' blew the entire stairwell out from under them trapping them in WTC 7 BEFORE either tower came down. That is BEFORE Tower Two, and BEFORE Tower One. That is their primary source recorded evidence., their testimony: 'massive -explosion - trapped'
What corroboration that a "massive explosion" trapping them where they are recorded on the day need there be made in a court of LAW do you think? Who would argue Hess was fooling around? 'making up' the severity of damage he and Jennings survived? Or that Jennings couldn't find a way down until FDNY officers got to them AFTER the towers came down as a 'joke' ?? that they didn't TRY! Or that the one other eyewitness to their plight, an unknown man Barry Jennings introduced as coming to his aid saying " there was no way we could access them....both staircases were...the whole backside of the building was blown away... "...http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-XOK-r80nr8 are you arguing from the distance of your position that these men didn't know the 'backside of the building was blown away'? What possible corroboration that these two men were trapped by an explosive event in WTC 7 before the Towers came down would the Judge require at this point? Co-incidentally, in the same structural area later developing the 'kink' in FreeFall.

How many explosive devices are shown in those YouTube videos?

Expolsions DO NOT EQUAL explosives.
Expolsions DO NOT EQUAL explosives.
Expolsions DO NOT EQUAL explosives.
Expolsions DO NOT EQUAL explosives.
Expolsions DO NOT EQUAL explosives.

 

[JSanderO]

How many explosive devices are shown in those YouTube videos?

Expolsions DO NOT EQUAL explosives.
Expolsions DO NOT EQUAL explosives.
Expolsions DO NOT EQUAL explosives.
Expolsions DO NOT EQUAL explosives.
Expolsions DO NOT EQUAL explosives.

Agreed. Been saying the same for years.

But...

Things did explode. How much damage could those explosions cause? What caused / was the Jennings Hess explosion?

 

[Spanx]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZduP7HTM3cg&desktop_uri=/watch?v=ZduP7HTM3cg

What corroboration ARE you talking about ? Hess is filmed in dire jeopardy calling from the eighth story window 'I AM TRAPPED on 8th floor, 7 World Trade !? Barry Jennings, in clear recorded language two hours or so later tells us a 'MASSIVE EXPLOSION' blew the entire stairwell out from under them trapping them in WTC 7 BEFORE either tower came down. That is BEFORE Tower Two, and BEFORE Tower One. That is their primary source recorded evidence., their testimony: 'massive -explosion - trapped'
What corroboration that a "massive explosion" trapping them where they are recorded on the day need there be made in a court of LAW do you think? Who would argue Hess was fooling around? 'making up' the severity of damage he and Jennings survived? Or that Jennings couldn't find a way down until FDNY officers got to them AFTER the towers came down as a 'joke' ?? that they didn't TRY! Or that the one other eyewitness to their plight, an unknown man Barry Jennings introduced as coming to his aid saying " there was no way we could access them....both staircases were...the whole backside of the building was blown away... "...http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-XOK-r80nr8 are you arguing from the distance of your position that these men didn't know the 'backside of the building was blown away'? What possible corroboration that these two men were trapped by an explosive event in WTC 7 before the Towers came down would the Judge require at this point? Co-incidentally, in the same structural area later developing the 'kink' in FreeFall.

But the guy who found Jennings says it was like a Bruce willis die hard movie.

Let's hope when truthers their investigation they call for Bruce willis as a witness.

 

[beachnut]

I guess you shut your eyes and shout that over and over and over so's not to hear the questions the actual evidence presents? Whatever. The position still stands. Explosions within the structure began BEFORE either tower came down by un-refuted eyewitness testimony. WHATEVER caused the explosion underneath level 6 as they ran down the stairs for their lives, did enormous structural damage to core/stairwell steel work in the same area later developing the kink in FreeFall.
Explosive damage enough to trap two eyewitnesses in the building for two hours.
That is when you can start your clock.

FreeFall? lol, the Mantra of 911 truth continues after 12 solid years of lies and failure.

The collapse time, what did NIST say of the collapse time. It is on video. Case closed.

There were no explosives used on 911, there were 4 planes used by 19 dumbed down terrorists who know what happened on 911, unlike the fringe few in 911 truth who can't figure out 911 after 12 years of failure.

Explosive would kill the people next to them, the ones you say reported explosions, but you never talked to them, you made this up to support your claims you can't make. Go ahead list the un-refuted witness testimony. And relate that to NIST collapse times. This will be good, better than the insanity of Jones and his fantasy thermite. Where they termite explosions, with no thermite?

 

[jaydeehess]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZduP7HTM3cg&desktop_uri=/watch?v=ZduP7HTM3cg

What corroboration ARE you talking about ? Hess is filmed in dire jeopardy calling from the eighth story window 'I AM TRAPPED on 8th floor, 7 World Trade !? Barry Jennings, in clear recorded language two hours or so later tells us a 'MASSIVE EXPLOSION' blew the entire stairwell out from under them trapping them in WTC 7 BEFORE either tower came down. That is BEFORE Tower Two, and BEFORE Tower One. That is their primary source recorded evidence., their testimony: 'massive -explosion - trapped'

Now that there is funny demo. You show him at the window at a time that is very clearlafter at least one tower has come down as evidence that the 'explosion' they experienced occurred before either tower came down.
At the time they experienced this 'explosion' they could not see what was occurring outside and theirs is an estimate of how long it took to get to the broken window.
Firefighters went through 7wtc after both towers fell and there were no reports of severe damage internally. Nor were there reports of a huge explosion at the approx two hour time prior to Hess getting to that window.

What corroboration that a "massive explosion" trapping them where they are recorded on the day need there be made in a court of LAW do you think? Who would argue Hess was fooling around? 'making up' the severity of damage he and Jennings survived? Or that Jennings couldn't find a way down until FDNY officers got to them AFTER the towers came down as a 'joke' ?? that they didn't TRY!

I don't know, who do you think might argue in that fashion? Why are you even asking me such questions?

Or that the one other eyewitness to their plight, an unknown man Barry Jennings introduced as coming to his aid saying " there was no way we could access them....both staircases were...the whole backside of the building was blown away... "...http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-XOK-r80nr8 are you arguing from the distance of your position that these men didn't know the 'backside of the building was blown away'? What possible corroboration that these two men were trapped by an explosive event in WTC 7 before the Towers came down would the Judge require at this point? Co-incidentally, in the same structural area later developing the 'kink' in FreeFall.

Well for starters, since this is supposedly a hypothetical court case you propose, the statement attributed to the unknown man would not even be allowed as its hearsay. You would need to find that gentleman. He cannot be cross examined about what he saw.
Second, there are a lot of pictures and videos of 7wtc after both towers collapsed and there is no evidence even at that late time that any part of the north or east sides of the structure were ' blown out' . Not that I know of, do you?

So, ignoring the oddity of a court case with no stated defendants or charges specified, you have testimony of two men in a dark stairwell with no windows and no corobboration as to the veracity of their claims.
Jennings and Hess were mistaken, that is all.


Now in the video we hear a lot of 'explosions' don' t we? We also see a lot of cars burning. So one could assume that what we are hearing are gas tanks and tires. There are a few distant 'whump' sounds that I would assume are large pieces falling off of other buildings, wtc3,4,5,6 would be candidates.

 

[LSSBB]

Agreed. Been saying the same for years.

But...

Things did explode. How much damage could those explosions cause? What caused / was the Jennings Hess explosion?

That's not a straightforward question. Without audio recording of the sounds they described, an accurate characterization is extremely difficult. Causes for explosive noises can include structural collapses or impacts, transformer explosions, confined spaces with flammable materials, tires or rubber bladders, and I believe there may be other examples. The other unknown is the proximity of the noise source to structural members and the force, if any, applied. Also noises are attenuated, absorbed or amplified by different materials in different configurations.

 

[JSanderO]

That's not a straightforward question. Without audio recording of the sounds they described, an accurate characterization is extremely difficult. Causes for explosive noises can include structural collapses or impacts, transformer explosions, confined spaces with flammable materials, tires or rubber bladders, and I believe there may be other examples. The other unknown is the proximity of the noise source to structural members and the force, if any, applied. Also noises are attenuated, absorbed or amplified by different materials in different configurations.

I am not asserting that there was one type of explosion. I would think there were many. I am discounting loud noises such as a section of a floor slab dropping on another below.

Clearly many electrical devices exploded.

But what are the possibilities for the Jennings/Hess explosion which destroyed the stairs below them? (assuming their account of the magnitude of destruction was accurate)

What were the explosions I believe pennants of 7WTC reported very early in the AM which were the basis for the building (and the OEM) for being evacuated (it was empty when Jennings and Hess arrived around 9:30)

 

[jaydeehess]

Agreed. Been saying the same for years.

But...

Things did explode. How much damage could those explosions cause? What caused / was the Jennings Hess explosion?

We have nothing but their estimate of when it occurred. It left the stairwell choked in dust and smoke. They could not see outside at the time.
It is as likely that this was the collapse of 2WTC blowing dust and debris into 7WTC.

Perhaps, maybe, if one could find a few more details to support the notion, it could possibly have been the explosion of a transformer in the Con-Ed.

Remo doesn't want to hear that either though. He prefers to believe that the bad people put explosives in the building .

Of course if they are incorrect about which side of the building the came down then its quite possible that it was the collapse of WTC1 and its taking out of the SW corner of the building.

 

[remo]

Comedy in LaLa

No Mr Sander, we do not 'assume' their estimate/magnitude of damage was accurate. We ACCEPT as eyewitness to the tragedy the testimony of Barry Jennings and corroborated by Hess in the window. It is not 'assumption' that Jennings/Hess were trapped by a 'massive explosion' in the NEastern sector 8th floor of WTC 7 BEFORE either Tower was brought down. What caused it could fairly be argued as assumption. But it is clear in the recordings and later interviews the explosion occurred before either Tower was demolished and trapped them there. Fact that the camera got to Hess after either tower came down does not counter Jennings testimony, it only corroborates the fact that these men WERE TRAPPED. There was never a suggestion that clip confirmed or denied the time the explosion trapped them. And no Mr. JAyDeeHESS(any relation?) you cannot just 'assume' Barry Jennings didn't mean what he said, that this explosive event occurred BEFORE either Tower was demolished. He was very much certain and repeated it in later interviews. These are the facts of the matter.

Also, we do not 'assume' the observable building behaviour or the NIST report establishing the very sector Jennings/Hess were trapped in by this 'massive explosion' beneath them at 9:30am, was THE critical initiation core area in the 5:20pm total destruct sequence bringing the outer structural facade down within 7 seconds of its sudden onset; or, if you begin your clock when the internal sequencing dismembered the core structure under the penthouse beginning in that same NE core area; 18 seconds all together. Either way, Jennings/Hess testified to explosions in the core/ stairwell area under the Penthouse at around 9:30am.

We also accept the forensic fact that this entire 47 storied, 81 columned steel framed high rise dropped suddenly straight down into itself AT FREE FALL for a NIST acknowledged 2.25 seconds as established in the literature. Over 100 feet at free fall. We also do not have to 'assume' that this is UNPRECEDENTED building behaviour by 'normal office furnishings fire' STANDARDS. Historically, until and after 911, building behaviour as observed on 911 could only be cited 'usual' by virtue of explosive demolition. The 'assumption' is in acceptance without due diligence and proper judicial investigation, the 'new phenomenon' creatioNIST report asserting an untested hypotheseis as fact. That is the assumption.

 

[LSSBB]

No Mr Sander, we do not 'assume' their estimate/magnitude of damage was accurate. We ACCEPT as eyewitness to the tragedy the testimony of Barry Jennings and corroborated by Hess in the window. It is not 'assumption' that Jennings/Hess were trapped by a 'massive explosion' in the NEastern sector 8th floor of WTC 7 BEFORE either Tower was brought down. What caused it could fairly be argued as assumption. But it is clear in the recordings and later interviews the explosion occurred before either Tower was demolished and trapped them there. Fact that the camera got to Hess after either tower came down does not counter Jennings testimony, it only corroborates the fact that these men WERE TRAPPED. There was never a suggestion that clip confirmed or denied the time the explosion trapped them. And no Mr. JAyDeeHESS(any relation?) you cannot just 'assume' Barry Jennings didn't mean what he said, that this explosive event occurred BEFORE either Tower was demolished. He was very much certain and repeated it in later interviews. These are the facts of the matter.

Also, we do not 'assume' the observable building behaviour or the NIST report establishing the very sector Jennings/Hess were trapped in by this 'massive explosion' beneath them at 9:30am, was THE critical initiation core area in the 5:20pm total destruct sequence bringing the outer structural facade down within 7 seconds of its sudden onset; or, if you begin your clock when the internal sequencing dismembered the core structure under the penthouse beginning in that same NE core area; 18 seconds all together. Either way, Jennings/Hess testified to explosions in the core/ stairwell area under the Penthouse at around 9:30am.

We also accept the forensic fact that this entire 47 storied, 81 columned steel framed high rise dropped suddenly straight down into itself AT FREE FALL for a NIST acknowledged 2.25 seconds as established in the literature. Over 100 feet at free fall. We also do not have to 'assume' that this is UNPRECEDENTED building behaviour by 'normal office furnishings fire' STANDARDS. Historically, until and after 911, building behaviour as observed on 911 could only be cited 'usual' by virtue of explosive demolition. The 'assumption' is in acceptance without due diligence and proper judicial investigation, the 'new phenomenon' creatioNIST report asserting an untested hypotheseis as fact. That is the assumption.

Still not understanding what explosions are. Or that freefall was not constant and is irrelevant to CD.

I take it remo is ignoring me because he cannot address my debunking of his claims.

 

[dafydd]

No Mr Sander, we do not 'assume' their estimate/magnitude of damage was accurate. We ACCEPT as eyewitness to the tragedy the testimony of Barry Jennings and corroborated by Hess in the window. It is not 'assumption' that Jennings/Hess were trapped by a 'massive explosion' in the NEastern sector 8th floor of WTC 7 BEFORE either Tower was brought down. What caused it could fairly be argued as assumption. But it is clear in the recordings and later interviews the explosion occurred before either Tower was demolished and trapped them there. Fact that the camera got to Hess after either tower came down does not counter Jennings testimony, it only corroborates the fact that these men WERE TRAPPED. There was never a suggestion that clip confirmed or denied the time the explosion trapped them. And no Mr. JAyDeeHESS(any relation?) you cannot just 'assume' Barry Jennings didn't mean what he said, that this explosive event occurred BEFORE either Tower was demolished. He was very much certain and repeated it in later interviews. These are the facts of the matter.

Also, we do not 'assume' the observable building behaviour or the NIST report establishing the very sector Jennings/Hess were trapped in by this 'massive explosion' beneath them at 9:30am, was THE critical initiation core area in the 5:20pm total destruct sequence bringing the outer structural facade down within 7 seconds of its sudden onset; or, if you begin your clock when the internal sequencing dismembered the core structure under the penthouse beginning in that same NE core area; 18 seconds all together. Either way, Jennings/Hess testified to explosions in the core/ stairwell area under the Penthouse at around 9:30am.

We also accept the forensic fact that this entire 47 storied, 81 columned steel framed high rise dropped suddenly straight down into itself AT FREE FALL for a NIST acknowledged 2.25 seconds as established in the literature. Over 100 feet at free fall. We also do not have to 'assume' that this is UNPRECEDENTED building behaviour by 'normal office furnishings fire' STANDARDS. Historically, until and after 911, building behaviour as observed on 911 could only be cited 'usual' by virtue of explosive demolition. The 'assumption' is in acceptance without due diligence and proper judicial investigation, the 'new phenomenon' creatioNIST report asserting an untested hypotheseis as fact. That is the assumption.

Sigh.

 

[jaydeehess]

I am not related to that Mr.Hess , in fact my name is not even Hess. My moniker is a phonetic spelling of my initials JDS.( consider the 'H' as a silent demarcation between two of the 'e's. Or don't, I really do not give can rat's sphincter how anyone pronounces it)

 

[jaydeehess]

So, no corroboration of the Jennings/Hess timeline or perception. No fire fighters in _7WTC noticed that the stairway on the east side was destroyed? I guess the stairs onthe west side must have managed to remain intact despite the very noticeable fact that the NW corner of the building was missing for over a dozen storeys.
When they cleared the building maybe they just forgot to walk the length of the fifth floor.

No, wait, of course, I forgot, all the FDNY were in on the destruction and cover up.

 

[pgimeno]

But the guy who found Jennings says it was like a Bruce willis die hard movie.

Let's hope when truthers their investigation they call for Bruce willis as a witness.

Trains must be investigated as a cause of the collapse too. It's all in the oral records.

http://loosetrains911.blogspot.com/

 

[pgimeno]

We also accept the forensic fact that this entire 47 storied, 81 columned steel framed high rise dropped suddenly straight down into itself AT FREE FALL for a NIST acknowledged 2.25 seconds as established in the literature. Over 100 feet at free fall. We also do not have to 'assume' that this is UNPRECEDENTED building behaviour by 'normal office furnishings fire' STANDARDS.

It's also UNPRECEDENTED building behaviour by any 'demolition' standards, so that argument leads you nowhere.

Things that never happened before happen all the time.

Historically, until and after 911, building behaviour as observed on 911 could only be cited 'usual' by virtue of explosive demolition.^{[citation required]}

This video shows one of many examples that contradict you. Buildings do collapse due to fire. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p22OkclAU3o

 

[Robrob]

We also accept the forensic fact that this entire 47 storied, 81 columned steel framed high rise dropped suddenly straight down into itself AT FREE FALL for a NIST acknowledged 2.25 seconds as established in the literature. Over 100 feet at free fall. We also do not have to 'assume' that this is UNPRECEDENTED building behaviour by 'normal office furnishings fire' STANDARDS.

I find the Truthers' use of language quite telling.

"Forensic fact" - clunky turn of a phrase used to insert an argument from authority by virtue of "science-like" vocabulary.

"Detailed description of the building size" - As if this matters?

Subjective/inaccurate descriptors; "suddenly," "straight down,"free fall," "acknowledged" "established" etc...

The superlatives combined with their continued claims of "extraordinary" behavior without any evidence to either support their claim or explain what it would mean in the first place, truly a CT hallmark.

 

[beachnut]

No ... It is not 'assumption' that Jennings/Hess were trapped by a 'massive explosion' in the NEastern sector 8th floor of WTC 7 BEFORE either Tower was brought down. ... That is the assumption.

There was no explosive in WTC 7, else Barry's brain would be mush, he would be dead that close to an explosive. But Barry was in a building hit by parts from a WTC tower which made a big noise, and destroyed parts of WTC 7 with kinetic energy; this is physics, and 911 truth prohibits physics, thinking for yourself, math, and anything to do with science or logic.

Not sure what Barry can contribute to what NIST said about collapse times, and you are evidence free, your posts makes no sense. What can you contribute past the lies you spread on NIST collapse time? The thread topic?

In the final report of NIST on the WTC towers, NIST mentions "collapse times" twice. NIST gives the time WTC 1 and 2 started to collapse, ie. "collapse times". You see, NIST can see on video the time it takes to collapse, albeit some of the collapse is in the dust, and you can see the core still standing, no longer with lateral support of the shell, quickly collapses on its own. The other mention of "collapse times" is related to structural response section. This was in the final report. You never read NIST, you prefer google to find woo from 911 truth. Armed with nothing but lies, you attack blindly in a thread about "collapse times". Why has 911 truth failed for 12 years? Questions?

 

[jaydeehess]

This video shows one of many examples that contradict you. Buildings do collapse due to fire. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p22OkclAU3o

Not much tilt, it basically fell into its own footprint.