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What exactly does NIST say about collpase times

The testimony of Barry Jennings is VERY CLEAR. ..

This is unambiguous. You do not get to change Barry Jennings testimony.

No, the testimony is not clear. He claims to know when the towers fell, yet admits ' I had no way of knowing that'. The reason he didn't actually know (and was confused about it) was because the window which he and Hess broke, and yelled to firefighters thru was on the North side of WTC7, where they could not see either tower.

Ergo, they 'had no way of knowing' if the towers were standing or had fallen. Jennings merely assumed the towers were still intact; Hess realized and stated that the 'explosion' or 'event' that they experienced was in fact WTC 2 collapsing and impacting WTC 7.

I trust you'll ignore these facts and continue to vent angrily about it, but know this: you're simply reciting obsolete ideas, which do not have the benefit of any real insight nor the recent discovery of additional footage which precisely shows the window that Hess and Jennings broke. It's no longer speculation - it's a fact that they couldn't have known.

So the whole Jennings theory is in fact dead as well. If you continue to insist upon it, you're wasting everybody's time, and will never understand the truth. Either way you lose.
 
I know some of you fine folks probably have gone over this more than me. I am NOT a truther. I am DEBUNKING many of them however. Im interested in what NIST said about collpase times. Specifically Im trying desperately to point out the giant fail in truthers claims that the towers (WTC's) fell at "free fall" speeds. Its obvious to me, but I want to know what NIST says since they keep pinging about NIST saying that they did.

I did read a LOT of the final reports years ago but Im sure I am not as well versed as some of you all are, so any help pointing me in the right direction is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

The discussion got heavily involved with interpretation of the collapse time of WTC 7, but you didn't specify which buildings you were inquiring about.

As you've probably learned, neither of the towers fell at freefall, nor did NIST say that they did. All NIST mentioned was the time it took for the first exterior panels to impact the ground. You actually have to ADD that time to the rest of the collapse time! A simple video I made years ago shows fairly conclusively that the collapse of at least one of them was nowhere near 10 seconds.



As for WTC7, NIST did describe a brief period during the overall collapse when part of the building was essentially at freefall. Before and after that time, there was resistance, well documented.
This refutes the CD hypothesis on a number of fronts, but the hypothesis itself is not scientifically sound, nor backed by any real evidence! So it's self-defeating in the first place - real CD's rarely if ever fall at freefall! They're not designed to, because they use the kinetic energy of the falling mass to destroy the structure, not explosives. This process causes significant resistance, which slows the collapse below G.

But even if you accept the unscientific and vague truther challenge, it would require the whole structure to start falling at freefall - but that's not what happened. We already can prove that a significant amount of structure was collapsing inside and out of view, by looking at oscillations in it, as well as the the collapse of the E Penthouse into the building - for which the only truthful explanation is the failure of columns directly below it.
All this happened many seconds before the remainder of the building (global collapse in NIST parlance) started to fall - slower than freefall.
You'll find almost all truthers ignore that the first few seconds of the collapse, or are unaware of it. It simply destroys their arguments, therefore it does not exist. :)

There are many other reasons why the CD argument fails, but these are specific to the speed of collapse, which responds to your question.

best wishes

AE
 
FYI here's my video on Jennings and Hess. Truthers, in my experience, dismiss Hess as some kind of government shill. But he was a valid eyewitness as well as Jennings, and he doesn't agree with Jennings.
I haven't bothered to make a new video with the footage of Hess hollering out the window, but it demolishes the assertion that either man could've viewed the towers as untrue. Anyone who insists they could is simply not addressing reality.

 
FYI here's my video on Jennings and Hess. Truthers, in my experience, dismiss Hess as some kind of government shill. But he was a valid eyewitness as well as Jennings, and he doesn't agree with Jennings.
I haven't bothered to make a new video with the footage of Hess hollering out the window, but it demolishes the assertion that either man could've viewed the towers as untrue. Anyone who insists they could is simply not addressing reality.


Nicely done AE. My only nitpick would in reference to Jennings saying " all this time I'm hearing explosions". In the video that shows him at the window we see multiple vehicles on fire and indeed we hear what could be characterized as explosions. There are at least two very reasonable explanations that have nothing to do with 7WTC. First, the fuel tanks and tires of the burning vehicles. Fuel tanks will explode with a loud whump, while when tires are on fire it heats the air in them and pressure builds while of course the rubber itself becomes less able to contain the pressure and they 'explode' .
Second, we have multiple structures in the area that have just received huge blows from WTC1 debris. Those structures would have components hanging and ready to fail. I believe that some of the sounds are the result of large pieces of WTC 5&6 breaking loose and falling. There is also the SW corner of 7WTC itself. A huge gash there could easily result in some structure continuing to let loose and fall.

7WTC was indeed on fire at this time but the fires were relatively small. There may have been contents exploding in those fires but I see the burning vehicles as being the probable origin of most of the explosions Jennings refers to.

That video also illustrates quite well that they are at a window from which the cannot possibly have seen the towers. Therefore Jennings must be mistaken as having done so. Hess is quite adamant about no explosion in the stairwell, just the building shaking and filling with smoke and dust and the emergency Iights going out resulting in putting them in complete darkness.
 
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Speeds of deceit.

Apart from a 'touché' on this back and fourth, what part of 2.25 second FREEFALL is challenged by the presence of concrete in these buildings? What does it matter to 7 World Trade on the day?
Windsor and orient stand testament to their strength, not to WTC's weakness. Upright after total exhaustively ferocious fire many hours longer than 911 - they did not disintegrate in mid-air; did not drop into 'pools of molten metal' in crumpled free fallen piles. Admittedly there were not the dozens of eyewitness accounts of explosive events recorded at WTC to complete the comparison, but, that They and EVERY other steel framed high-rise in history stood under 'normal office furnishings' fires, argues AGAINST the sunder hypothesis claiming much LESS fire created much MORE wtc damage. (They don't call it 'enterprise' software for nothing)
The argument number 7 symmetrically 'free fell' after asymmetric damage to one front and small unconnected ranging fires axially expanding one girder off one core column seat out of 81 columns on one floor out of 47 - causing complete disintegration in 7 seconds MOL - by that same energy expended to damage ratio the ferocity of fires produced in orient and Windsor would have vaporised them.

Arguing WTC7 fell TOO FAST to be demolition 'therefore is not one,' defies all reason, or, here, defines it. That any complex structure falling 'faster' than 'normal' demolition' exhibiting all the characteristics OF controlled demolition, not being investigated AS controlled demolition, is a crime at every conceivable level.

That Mr.Jennings specifically assured us his experience as an 'old boiler guy' left him in NO DOUBT he survived a "massive explosion", and heard many IN the building while awaiting rescue - that he was very sure both towers came down after they were trapped - is now subject to revisioNIST 'car tires/petrol tanks blowing up in-the-street' jreeferism, is worthy of dick Cheney's notorious memory hole, and vaunts the odious Zelikow commission cover-up that didn't even mention building 7 destruction in its 'failure of imagination' torture. He explicitly discounted diesel fuel explosions. So I suppose Mr.Hess's later surety that there were no explosions in the building will lead him a long and fruitful life.

Mr. Jennings' assertive and un-recanted testimonies stating "explosions" being cruelly cut short by suspicious death two days before creatioNIST wtc7 release is just another 'lucky Larry' moment the OCT narrative can bank on.
 
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Fact: Jennings could not possibly see the towers from the window
Fact: Hess states quite emphatically that there was no explosion.
Fact: There were multiple cars burning when Jennings was at the window, indicating that 1WTC had already fallen
Fact: No truther has ever presented any evidence that free fall can only occur during a controlled demolition.
Fact: Concrete columns withstand fire damage much better than steel columns.
Fact: 7WTC was constructed with long span trusses and with several other structural disimalarities to other more conventially designed structures.

That you choose to ignore these in favor of a politically motivated , unproven and sparsely described scenario, is something we cannot help you with.
 
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Fact: Jennings could not possibly see the towers from the window
Fact: Hess states quite emphatically that there was no explosion.
Fact: There were multiple cars burning when Jennings was at the window, indicating that 1WTC had already fallen
Fact: No truther has ever presented any evidence that free fall can only occur during a controlled demolition.
Fact: Concrete columns withstand fire damage much better than steel columns.
Fact: 7WTC was constructed with long span trusses and with several other structural disimalarities to other more conventially designed structures.

That you choose to ignore these in favor of a politically motivated , unproven and sparsely described scenario, is something we cannot help you with.
Also...

Fact: there is no evidence of 2.25 seconds of constant freefall.
 
Windsor and orient stand testament to their strength, not to WTC's weakness. Upright after total exhaustively ferocious fire many hours longer than 911 - they did not disintegrate in mid-air; did not drop into 'pools of molten metal' in crumpled free fallen piles.
You realize the steel part of the Winsor fell from the fire, the concrete parts stayed up?

The argument number 7 symmetrically 'free fell' after asymmetric damage to one front and small unconnected ranging fires
False. Close to a lie. Why wouldn't you know that?

Arguing WTC7 fell TOO FAST to be demolition 'therefore is not one,' defies all reason, or, here, defines it.
Wtc7 did not fall too fast for anything. It fell exactly as fast as one would have expected after the structural steel softened and lost most of its integrity.

Mr. Jennings' assertive and un-recanted testimonies stating "explosions" being cruelly cut short by suspicious death two days before creatioNIST wtc7 release is just another 'lucky Larry' moment the OCT narrative can bank on.
Further evidence your POV is not based on reality.
 
Also...

Fact: there is no evidence of 2.25 seconds of constant freefall.

remo's characterization of the over free fall acelleration is ridiculous. No one is saying it fell "too fast". Rather , I at least, am saying that the FACT that there is a measured over 'g' indicates that some other factor was affecting the measurements .

Since this is obvious it cannot be stated that any measurement can be said to prove anything.
 
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That's a ridiculous statement... and confusing grammar.

This statement is false.
-Given that there was no constant acelleration at 'g', and that the measured acelleration of points on the facade of WTC7 actually exceeded 'g'.
-Given that simple vertical acelleration cannot exceed 'g', without another force being applied to the acellerating object
-Given the known effect that rotation can have on the measured vertical acelleration of points on the rotating object,

it is obvious that the simplistic notion that the period at 'g' could only be caused by explosive demolitions is in error.

Better?
 
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remo's characterization of the over free fall acelleration is ridiculous. No one is saying it fell "too fast". Rather , I at least, am saying that the FACT that there is a measured over 'g' indicates that some other factor was affecting the measurements .

Since this is obvious it cannot be stated that any measurement can be said to prove anything.

That's a ridiculous statement... and confusing grammar.

This statement is false.

Would you also say that remo's characterization of the debunker position, that debunkers claim it fell "too fast", is also 'ridiculous'?
 
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Apart from a 'touché' on this back and fourth, what part of 2.25 second FREEFALL is challenged by the presence of concrete in these buildings?
The presence of concrete does not challenge freefall. Freefall is challenged and rebutted by the video data that shows unequivocally that at least one part of the building fell at a FASTER rate than gravity acceleration. That's a fact you'll have to live with.


What does it matter to 7 World Trade on the day?
Windsor and orient stand testament to their strength, not to WTC's weakness.
Not Windsor's steel, certainly. That speaks badly of steel under fire, don't you think?


Upright after total exhaustively ferocious fire many hours longer than 911 - they did not disintegrate in mid-air; did not drop into 'pools of molten metal' in crumpled free fallen piles. Admittedly there were not the dozens of eyewitness accounts of explosive events recorded at WTC to complete the comparison,
There were numerous reports of explosions in the Windsor building, didn't you know that? It happened in my country. I was following the news. The reporters mentioned several occasional explosions.

File that under "oops", or maybe under "touché" together with the concrete of the Windsor and the Mandarin Oriental Hotel.


but, that They and EVERY other steel framed high-rise in history stood under 'normal office furnishings' fires, argues AGAINST the sunder hypothesis claiming much LESS fire created much MORE wtc damage.
That's totally off of reality. Every other fire in every other steel framed high-rise in history was fought. And the fires in WTC7 were bigger and more significant than you seem to be willing to admit.


The argument number 7 symmetrically 'free fell' after asymmetric damage to one front and small unconnected ranging fires axially expanding one girder off one core column seat out of 81 columns on one floor out of 47 - causing complete disintegration in 7 seconds MOL - by that same energy expended to damage ratio the ferocity of fires produced in orient and Windsor would have vaporised them.
The amount of energy released matters little - vérinage demolitions use a minimal amount of energy, and no explosives, to induce a cascade collapse and let the building end up as a pile on the floor.


Arguing WTC7 fell TOO FAST to be demolition 'therefore is not one,' defies all reason, or, here, defines it.
Hmm, you're not paying attention. You were using the «unprecedented» meme (which I see you've dropped after it backfired every single time) to claim that since the fall at free fall was unprecedented in building fires, it had to be a demolition. I turned YOUR argument upside down to show you how that argument was silly and baseless: it was also unprecedented by building demolition standards; should we conclude that therefore it was not a demolition? I did it to show the flaw in YOUR argument. I'm not claiming that it's too fast for a demolition and therefore it's not one; it's YOU who were claiming that it was too fast for a building collapse and therefore it wasn't one. All I wanted to do is show you that that argument doesn't hold water.

In reality, the fact that it fell faster than gravity does not help at all with explaining whether it was a collapse or a demolition. THAT was my point.

But let me elaborate on why it matters that it fell faster. The typical truther claim is that the columns ceased to oppose resistance all at once, in order for the building (actually, the façade only) to fall in free fall. The underlying assumption is that there is no force pushing down other than the weight of the building, and therefore the opposing resistance must be zero for the acceleration to match gravity.

However, the fact that the building exceeded the acceleration of gravity proves unequivocally that there is a force pushing down other than the weight of the building, therefore destroying the no-other-force assumption. That means that the opposing resistance is unknown and not necessarily zero, and the no-resistance claim is invalidated.

Don't worry if you don't understand, I didn't expect you to.


That any complex structure falling 'faster' than 'normal' demolition' exhibiting all the characteristics OF controlled demolition, not being investigated AS controlled demolition, is a crime at every conceivable level.
No it did not. Remember that daylight was visible from the bottom through the upper windows after the east penthouse collapsed. Or did you miss that? It indicates that that part of the building was already completely gone internally. By extrapolation it's easy to infer that the internal collapse happened prior to the façade falling, and that, guess what? doesn't happen in building demolitions, but has quite some precedents in building collapses.
 
There were numerous reports of explosions in the Windsor building, didn't you know that? It happened in my country. I was following the news. The reporters mentioned several occasional explosions.

File that under "oops", or maybe under "touché" together with the concrete of the Windsor and the Mandarin Oriental Hotel.

Obviously the Madrid fire dept entered the burning building , went up to a few floors gfrom the top, planted explosives, and brought down the top few floors. That's why there were reports of explosions.........

In reality, the fact that it fell faster than gravity does not help at all with explaining whether it was a collapse or a demolition. THAT was my point.

But let me elaborate on why it matters that it fell faster. The typical truther claim is that the columns ceased to oppose resistance all at once, in order for the building (actually, the façade only) to fall in free fall. The underlying assumption is that there is no force pushing down other than the weight of the building, and therefore the opposing resistance must be zero for the acceleration to match gravity.

However, the fact that the building exceeded the acceleration of gravity proves unequivocally that there is a force pushing down other than the weight of the building, therefore destroying the no-other-force assumption. That means that the opposing resistance is unknown and not necessarily zero, and the no-resistance claim is invalidated.

Don't worry if you don't understand, I didn't expect you to.
.

^^^^THIS is what I have been getting at. Chandler, and especially AE911T should have noted the faster than 'g' acelleration and immediately tweaked to the fact that they did not have all the info they needed to make proclamations about the destruction of 7WTC. Its a glaring, in-your-face, red flag that says this is not as simplistic as described by AE911T. Rather than note this though, AE911T completely and utterly ignore this. Too inconvenient I suppose. No attempt to incorporate the faster than free fall period, no acknowledgement that free fall acelleration was momentary as acelleration increased through 'g', just silence on that aspect to the point of error in their description of the collapse.

Remo does the same, brushing off this as inconsequential when in fact he just has no explanation for it because his truther idols haven't given him any.

Either , as pgimeno and others assert, there was a force generated by leverage of the already collapsing interior, through connections to the facade, that were pulling down on the facade, and/or something was affecting the 2d measurements of acelleration.

IMHO
 
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... ... Mr. Jennings' assertive and un-recanted testimonies stating "explosions" being cruelly cut short by suspicious death two days before creatioNIST wtc7 release is just another 'lucky Larry' moment the OCT narrative can bank on.
TWO DAYS? Do you make this stuff up or plagiarize from 911 truth known liars and frauds?

Barry Jennings Died August 19, 2008. (did 911 truth try to look this up first before spreading lies?) No? Why not?

NIST WTC 7 final report published November 20, 2008.

Oops, Barry died 3 months before NIST report on WTC 7. Is 911 truth using Balsamo math to figure out the 2 days?

Lucky Larry moment? Is 911 truth going to blame Jews and make up more lies?

There goes the thermite lie. Barry would be dead if there was an explosion that close. Why does 911 truth have no clue what explosions do? Pretty much makes the thermite lie go away since there was no toasted Barry.

Barry died of

Barry died, my brother died. People die, but in 911 truth world of woo, it is all a conspiracy dumbed down with bad math, no science and tons of woo.

Lucky Larry? Silly names, silly thermite, and NIST said what about collapse times, almost nothing. 911 truth spreads insane lies of thermite from the Idiot Jones, and uses fantasy math to turn 3 months into 2 days. A religion of woo - 911 Truth - in their 13th year of failure.
 
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2.25 second FREEFALL
When is a Twoofer going to explain how magical, disappearing and silent explosives caused 7WTC to fall SLOWER than free fall, SPEED UP for 2.25 seconds, then SLOW back down again?
Windsor and orient stand testament to their strength, not to WTC's weakness. Upright after total exhaustively ferocious fire many hours longer than 911
The Windsor Tower had reinforced concrete in the core and below the 17th floor. Gee, I wonder why the FIRST collapse, which occurred ~2 hours and 30 minutes after fires began, brought down the unprotected steel floors above the 17th. http://www.mace.manchester.ac.uk/pr...Study/HistoricFires/BuildingFires/default.htm
they did not disintegrate in mid-air; did not drop into 'pools of molten metal' in crumpled free fallen piles
Neither did 7 WTC.
'normal office furnishings' fires
You tell me. What exactly is a "normal office fire"?
The argument number 7 symmetrically 'free fell' after asymmetric damage to one front and small unconnected ranging fires axially expanding one girder off one core column seat out of 81 columns on one floor out of 47 - causing complete disintegration in 7 seconds MOL
There was a 20 story hole in the South side and smoke pluming from nearly all floors. Also, the damage didn't play much of a role to begin with. Lastly, "complete disintegration"? Wrong. And the collapses took much longer than 7 seconds. The east penthouse drops ~8 seconds BEFORE the external shell falls, so that kind of ruins your whole 7 second assertions.

exhibiting all the characteristics OF controlled demolition, not being investigated AS controlled demolition, is a crime at every conceivable level.
You mean besides the 130 db blasts and huge amounts of evidence that would be present after the collapse? How about the lack of the chemo-specific light flashes present in CD's? No indications on any seismographs?

the odious Zelikow commission cover-up that didn't even mention building 7 destruction
It was an investigation into the terrorist plot, and how to better thwart one in the future. WTC7 wasn't involved in the al Qaeda plot. Hence, it wasn't included in the report. It wasn't an engineering report.

Mr. Jennings' assertive and un-recanted testimonies stating "explosions" being cruelly cut short by suspicious death two days before creatioNIST wtc7 release is just another 'lucky Larry' moment the OCT narrative can bank on.
Barry died of Leukemia in 2008 in a hospital. He retracted his statements and made it clear that 911 twoofers deliberately distorted and quote mined his testimony. That is what you guys are best at!
Also, Silverstein LOST money after 9/11. If it WAS an elaborate Joo plot, it was the most unbelievably badly planned one in the history of the NWO. And I guess the insurance agencies didn't care to question the fact that he, for some reason, went onto national television (which the US gubmint apparently let happen), confessed everything about how he "pulled" the building and completely got away with it.
 
A religion of woo - 911 Truth - in their 13th year of failure.
And, sadly enough, the woo will live on, so long as you have masses of credulous, ill-informed, and paranoid CTers willing to buy into the lies, pseudoscience and distorted facts peddled by Internet charlatans.
The good thing is that they are virtually non-existent in the real world.
Guaranteed way of getting away from 911 twoofers? Turn off your computer.
 
Oops, Barry died 3 months before NIST report on WTC 7. Is 911 truth using Balsamo math to figure out the 2 days?
So was Remo lying or just quoting liars? :rolleyes:
 

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