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What actually do JREF religious believers believe?

bruto said:
There are all sorts of ways to hurt yourself, absolutely and relatively. DJ is not Rolfe, and a question remains a question if you don't find anything to say.
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I spent many posts answering questions posed in the OP. Rolfe can answer or not, but there are at least a few posters that are members that believe in God including me and Rolfe. I thought the e-mail was a slap in the face to those that believe. There was no may or could be harmful to myself or others, for one thing. The supernatural nonsense was not very tactful either. Maybe they need a communication director to help them draft such things.
 
Soapy Sam said:
Meanwhile, a few miles away, one of the smartest people I know was taking the opposite path.

I want to know why.

What do sceptic believers actually believe? Are they lying to themselves and aware of it? Is there just that one relict of their fairy tale and storybook childhood, hanging onto some brainspace when the dragons and unicorns have gone?

I can understand how religion grabs the minds of simple souls. But Rolfe?
Kittynh? And others on this forum. Famous scientists. Tony Blair and his wierd wife- clearly far from fools, yet still in the grip of this one odd irrationality.

Can any of our believers explain what it is they actually believe - and why?
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Its quite simple, some folk realise that all human knowledge and understanding does not explain the origin of our existence or negate a creator.

From this position one is free to consider or seek a creator.

Personally I asked (as a teenager) and received a clear answer straight away.

Although now I don't believe, I gave up beliefs years ago. This does not mean that I am of the opinion that there is not a creator.
 
punshhh said:
Its quite simple, some folk realise that all human knowledge and understanding does not explain the origin of our existence or negate a creator.

From this position one is free to consider or seek a creator.

Personally I asked (as a teenager) and received a clear answer straight away.
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Asked who? What answer did you get?
 
zooterkin said:
Asked who? What answer did you get?
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I asked God, you know the old saying, that the only way to find out if God exists is to ask God directly.

The answer was an emphatic yes, it was as if my whole body said it. I was cycling home after college and I suddenly had limitless energy. I could cycle how ever fast I liked and it was effortless. Usually it was a hard slog to get up any speed.
 
punshhh said:
I asked God, you know the old saying, that the only way to find out if God exists is to ask God directly.

The answer was an emphatic yes, it was as if my whole body said it. I was cycling home after college and I suddenly had limitless energy. I could cycle how ever fast I liked and it was effortless. Usually it was a hard slog to get up any speed.
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Yaaaaaawn. Which one of the gods did you ask? Mankind has invented a lot of them over the years.
 
punshhh said:
I asked God, you know the old saying, that the only way to find out if God exists is to ask God directly.

The answer was an emphatic yes, it was as if my whole body said it. I was cycling home after college and I suddenly had limitless energy. I could cycle how ever fast I liked and it was effortless. Usually it was a hard slog to get up any speed.
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Ok. And yet you went on to say:
punshhh said:
Although now I don't believe, I gave up beliefs years ago. This does not mean that I am of the opinion that there is not a creator.
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So, given that you don't believe now, what do you now think it was that you actually experienced back then?
 
RoseMontague said:
I spent many posts answering questions posed in the OP. Rolfe can answer or not, but there are at least a few posters that are members that believe in God including me and Rolfe. I thought the e-mail was a slap in the face to those that believe. There was no may or could be harmful to myself or others, for one thing. The supernatural nonsense was not very tactful either. Maybe they need a communication director to help them draft such things.
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I'm not sure what your complaint is to be honest. The JREF is about exposing woo and supernatural nonsense. Religion is undoubtedly supernatural nonsense.

You may disagree with the JREF but your argument sounds like special pleading for your woo.
 
zooterkin said:
Ok. And yet you went on to say:



So, given that you don't believe now, what do you now think it was that you actually experienced back then?
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It seems to be Orwellian doublethink. He gave up his beliefs but he still believes there could be a creator.
 
Last of the Fraggles said:
I'm not sure what your complaint is to be honest. The JREF is about exposing woo and supernatural nonsense. Religion is undoubtedly supernatural nonsense.

You may disagree with the JREF but your argument sounds like special pleading for your woo.
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I don't agree. That is what this thread is about, is it not? There are members here that believe in God, and some very smart members like Rolfe. Is Rolfe hurting herself or others with her belief in God? I think a general statement like the one JREF sent out is skeptic nonsense. I just received another plea for funds with the same first message attached. It is a slap on the other side the face, in my opinion.
 
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I don't think the statement "People really are hurt when they believe supernatural nonsense" is true. At most I would say that many times or, perhaps, most of the time (I have no idea) people are really hurt when they believe supernatural nonsense.

I don't see how believing that some elf is riding a bycicle around the Andromeda Galaxy is necessarily "really hurtful".

It depends on how said belief affects other, more mundane, beliefs/knowledge and how the result of the interaction (logically arrived at or not) of these beliefs affects behavior.

Deism? Boring, unnecessary, epistemologically inefficient, but, "really hurtful"? Not more than sending an e-mail with an inaccurate statement.
 
Dani said:
I'm not sure those children you're referring to even know what deism is. However, I'm sure that what causes their suffering is not deism. Likewise, many other supernatural beliefs, such as the idea of an elf riding a bycicle around the Andromeda Galaxy or the end of the world prophecy, aren't the cause of their suffering.
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Try reading the article. This is all being done in the name of a god. It doesn't matter what the children know, it's the deluded adults who believe in an imaginary being, i.e., deism.

''You’ve probably heard that there’s an especially nefarious effect of some Christian sects in Africa:''
 
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Rose, it seems to me that DJ made a generalization when the evidence shows that it can be harmful to some folks some of the time.

The entire Sylvia Browne exposure effort (see Mr Lancaster and others) is rooted in the position that some of the folks who go to Browne for reassurances are at least financially hurt by believing in her assertions of communication with those "in the great beyond."

Mind you, folks take advantage of those who are hurting in a great many ways. (Ever been to a funeral home when a loved on has passed away?) What Sylvia does or did is just one of them, one that takes on a particular form and asserts the use of the supernatural to do so.

People who assert that religion is inherently hurtful need to tell the folks at the food ministry where I volunteer, and whom I support with donations, how hurtful it is when Christians feed the hungry.

You people know who you are, and having a conversation with you when you see something so narrowly is an exercise in futility. This post was probably a waste of time but it's a commercial break during the ESPN recap of the NFL games, so I thought I'd offer two cents.

Happy New Year to you all.
 
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Darth Rotor said:
Rose, it seems to me that DJ made a generalization when the evidence shows that it can be harmful to some folks some of the time.

The entire Sylvia Browne exposure effort (see Mr Lancaster and others) is rooted in the position that some of the folks who go to Browne for reassurances are at least financially hurt by believing in her assertions of communication with those "in the great beyond."

Mind you, folks take advantage of those who are hurting in a great many ways. (Ever been to a funeral home when a loved on has passed away?) What Sylvia does or did is just one of them, one that takes on a particular form and asserts the use of the supernatural to do so.

People who assert that religion is inherently hurtful need to tell the folks at the food ministry where I volunteer, and whom I support with donations, how hurtful it is when Christians feed the hungry.

You people know who you are, and having a conversation with you when you see something so narrowly is an exercise in futility. This post was probably a waste of time but it's a commercial break during the ESPN recap of the NFL games, so I thought I'd offer two cents.

Happy New Year to you all.
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The Volkskeuken in Antwerp provide cheap food for the unemployed and disadvantaged. I help out there now and again. It is not a religious organization. Do you really think that the only people who help the poor are Christians?
 
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