VisionFromFeeling - General discussion thread

In the post you quoted, I referenced other people, not just me. I've seen several people express varying levels of disagreement with inviting Anita on stage at TAM, and every one of those people seemed to understand the context. At the same time I've seen their arguments dismissed with the claim that they did not understand that context. You can see examples in the comments from Mark Edward's blog.

From my perspective I wouldn't have had a problem if they had refused her entry to TAM. While these forums do not constitute the entirety of what the JREF does, it's by far their most significant presence on the web (twice as much activity as the main site). Anita demonstrated gross disrespect for the organization and was banned from the forums.

I think the JREF would have been well within their ethical rights to say, "You have demonstrated a lack of respect for our organization and our volunteers, so we are not allowing you to attend TAM." Then again, I can understand why they might choose to let her attend. To me it's no different than someone being disruptive at an event and being told not to return.

Where I and others have major objections is that she was asked to be part of a presentation. Every objection I have seen understands the context surrounding it. In fact, I would argue that those who approve don't fully understand the context surrounding Anita herself, which is what made this such a bad decision. Considering the JREF's continued silence on the matter, we don't know what, if any, reasoning we might be missing.


Maybe the forum isn't that big a deal. There was a contest to find fellow forum-ites at TAM. The list had about 125 people on it. This didn't count everybody but it was pretty close. That's less than 10% of the people who showed up for TAM. The message is getting out there somehow and this forum is only a small part of that.

Rebecca Watson was banned from here and she was on a panel at TAM. Obviously one's history with the JREF forum has little do do with one's relationship with JREF.
 
"* How many have threatened lawsuits, police action, and/or tried to get people fired from their jobs for commenting on her claims?"

Really ? She did all of those ?I mean especially the last part on the job stuff.
 
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Maybe the forum isn't that big a deal.
I think that's quite obvious, but it doesn't make it right. However, like I said, I can see them handling it either way. My objection to her being invited on the stage is only in a small way affected by her being banned from the forums.
 
"* How many have threatened lawsuits, police action, and/or tried to get people fired from their jobs for commenting on her claims?"

Really ? She did all of those ?I mean especially the last part on the job stuff.

Yes. See my blog entry that covers some of the people whom she has treated poorly.

You can see the evidence of her trying to get someone fired in this thread on StopVFF. You will see where she wrote, "Alexis will face some charges and I will have a hearing arranged. She might even lose her job, who knows, because she is responsible for highly unprofessional and inappropriate behavior while representing our school, and she has personally been involved in spreading lies about our faculty, and of me of course."
 
"* How many have threatened lawsuits, police action, and/or tried to get people fired from their jobs for commenting on her claims?"

Really ? She did all of those ?I mean especially the last part on the job stuff.

Yes, she tried to get one of her fellow UNCC students fired from her job. The fellow student's name was Alexis Seven. I don't remember the particulars though.
 
I think that's quite obvious, but it doesn't make it right. However, like I said, I can see them handling it either way. My objection to her being invited on the stage is only in a small way affected by her being banned from the forums.

The forums will never be a big deal. The skeptical community grows because of the work of Michael Shermer, Phil Plait, Penn and Teller, numerous blogs, TV appearances, etc. Not because of the social chit-chat of an anonymous board.

Using Anita as part of the demonstration puts things in perspective. She's not even important enough to do a real test. The JREF isn't being silent about this, they said everything that needed to be said at the discussion and demonstration.
 
The short article below needs to be on this site. I don't have enough posts to include the link, but UncaYimmy put it in one of his posts. It's from Filer's File at ufoinfo.

Alenara is Anita/VisionfromFeeling's name from her Breathnarian days. She agreed to be tested over those claims, too. A couple of weeks ago, she wrote that she has renounced Breathanarianism.

Eventually she'll renounce VisionfromFeelinganism, too, and move onto something else. All the best scammers do. 6 years ago James Ray (the Oprah approved guy who killed all those people in his fake sweat lodge last fall) was hawking speed reading classes. Then he latched onto The Secret, and that was his rocket to the moon, or at least into tens of thousands of wallets.

It looks like you just have to stick with it until the con and the times mesh with the publicity. Anita/Alenara/VisionfromFeeling/YourNameHere will be there on that day.



This week there is letter from a lady who claims to be an alien, and Canada's former defence minister claims UFO's exist, an RB-47's encounters UFOs and the New Orleans disaster. Sightings were seen in Arizona, California, Florida, Illinois, Mississippi, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Tennessee. Sightings were also reported in Australia, Canada, the Dominican Republic, and Hungary.

Is not an alien force already among us?

PRESIDENT REAGAN stated, at the 42nd General Assembly of the United Nations in Sept. 21, 1987. "In our obsession with antagonisms of the moment, we often forget how much unites all the members of humanity. Perhaps we need some outside, universal threat to make us realize this common bond. I occasionally think how quickly our differences would vanish if we were facing an alien threat from outside this world. And yet, I ask you, IS NOT AN ALIEN FORCE ALREADY AMONG US?"

Letter from Alenara [Anita Ikonen]

When President Reagan told the United Nations, “are there not already aliens among us?” Was he talking about people like Alenara?

Alenara a lady who lives in Sweden writes, “I would like to tell you that I have arrived, here on Earth and I am an alien incarnation, and I come from another world. I am sure you are open to contact. There is much life in the outer space, and some of us come here! Life on earth has us come here in subtle forms, many of us - alien visitors - work on improvement for earth and for life here, without ever letting others know of our presence!

I am however planning to be one of us who change the world. And do so openly. Allow me to introduce myself. I am Amherana Kha're (how you spell my name depends on the pronunciation). Some time ago, I was living on my planet, in my home world. I can show you which star to look at in the night sky!

My home world is named Telmaar. We have only sent two individuals from our world to earth. It is I, and another. I know all of my companion, and will tell you about him, his whereabouts, his life mission, and we can even locate him if this is desired. I am a scientist. At home I worked with collecting all known science, the universal truth, that is, what is true science in spite of any beings interpreting or perceiving it in their own ways. This information was stored in a kind of libraries of ours, and I worked there, processing the information. I was in equivalent of earth years more than 370 years. Our average life span on that planet is equivalent of 1200 years. Persons of up to a 200 years are considered adolescent by our people, in our world. I am sent here to work with science.

In 1962, I was in proximity of planet Earth. We could hear radio broadcasts from earth, in our spaceship. I remember looking down toward the blue planet earth, wondering when my eyes would once look up from there below. It would last until 1980 when my suitable incarnation would be found. I remember the summer of 1982, traveling out of my body, in Sweden, watching the green birch trees, mountains and forests. October 1982 I was born. My life here has been difficult. At age 5, old enough to speak, I told people about immortality. One of the first things I ever said was "I am 300 years old." My family did their best to suppress these aspects of me. I was always able to remember who I was. I have had contact with otherworldly (alien) people all this life. They helped me learn and remember science, and enhanced my telepathic and extrasensory perception. Today I am able to see all molecules, atoms, electrons, electrical and magnetic fields, gravity, and more. Facing any object or situation, I sense all information of it.

A person's health status, his emotions, thoughts and dreams. I have incredible knowledge in chemistry, physics, and any other aspect of science, that is not yet known here on earth. It is knowledge I have with me, from my home world.

I can manifest atoms and soon also larger objects, and am learning to gain back my abilities and knowledge as I had prior to my incarnation. On my home world, we do not eat solid foods, our bodies are manifested in ways that I am learning to now apply to my human being, and go periods without eating or drinking, gaining incredible health and bodily rejuvenation. I am an alien manifestation. I am here for you, when ever you need to have contact. I can let you meet my alien contacts, they will gladly show you spaceships (UFOs) if we go together. I can heal any illness or bodily discomfort that you might have. Rejuvenation is here for you. Any science you ask for, is yours. We are here for you. Much love, Alenara, and the people of Telmaar

Editor’s Note: I have interviewed Alenara and found her to be a remarkable lady. We are skeptical of her claims, but feel it is only fair to test and learn more about her alien contacts and to her ability to prove her claims. I'm convinced she believes what she tells us. I have pointed out to her that remarkable claims require remarkable proof, and she states she is up to the test.
 
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The forums will never be a big deal. The skeptical community grows because of the work of Michael Shermer, Phil Plait, Penn and Teller, numerous blogs, TV appearances, etc. Not because of the social chit-chat of an anonymous board.
I do not engage in social chit-chat on this board nor am I anonymous. There are really two boards here. The Members Only section is mostly chit-chat, but the rest of the board is not. As I explained to you already, this board gets twice as much traffic as the main site. There are over 100,000 unique visitors per month. With only about 3,000 active members and 20,000 registered, this board has a huge outreach beyond those of who regularly post. Visitors cannot see the Members Only areas.

That the JREF doesn't appear to place much value by their actions (they say the words) is no reason to casually dismiss the forums as you have done. However, that's another discussion entirely. As I said, I have many other reasons for my objections, and so do other people. If you want to discuss the value of the forums further, I would suggest you start a thread.

Using Anita as part of the demonstration puts things in perspective. She's not even important enough to do a real test. The JREF isn't being silent about this, they said everything that needed to be said at the discussion and demonstration.
The JREF tested a woman who thought she could make Jeff Wagg pee using the powers of her mind, so your comment about the "importance" of Anita is dubious at best. Furthermore, I don't believe she has applied for the MDC, so I do not believe you have any basis for stating that she is not important enough to test. Obviously they thought she was important enough to bring on stage when she has no abilities that others don't have.

As for saying everything that needed to be said, that's your opinion. Other skeptics disagree and are not willing to accept one-way, scripted announcements without question. That's precisely the type of thinking that we fight. I and others have asked questions, and no answers have been forthcoming. I understand that this is sufficient for you, but please don't dismiss the interest of others simply because you have no objections.
 
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I am not bringing this up to cause a quarrel. Please review the first paragraph. I agree.

The reason I mention it is because, to me, this is the most interesting thing about VFF. That she is so polarizing. Something about her makes people respond differently when the subject comes up. They become quite passionate about the subject. Even, or rather especially, those who are dispassionate on nearly every other subject.

There have even been discussions in which people suggest that this irresponsible and immature girl will tear apart the skeptical community.

Why is that? How does she do it? There is nothing about her claims, her response to failure, or her faux-humble braggadocio that is any different from the psychics that have come before her. Yet, she's been given some strange anti-celebrity by the same people who want nothing more than to have her vanish forever.

I think you appear to be giving her far to much credit. What made Anita "different" was the story she used: and it is just a story. I think we've talked about this before.

Anita is an effective agitator because she weaved a beautiful story custom fit for this forum: a tragic tale about a young woo on a journey to skepticism, who was on the way to thinking logically but just needed some help. In any community of well intentioned skeptics, such a story is all you need to cause the drama we have seen.The story works because it preys on our desire as skeptics to help people embrace reason. Thus, those not familiar with her antics here and else where will easily defend her (and they continue to) until they have dealt with her enough to see through the charade.

Its a good story. It works to divide the community, and it has been immensely successful. But it is, essentially, just Anita trolling. And we've been trolled by a professional. There is nothing interesting going on here that you wouldn't find on any community thats been trolled.
 
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I think you appear to be giving her far to much credit. What made Anita "different" was the story she used: and it is just a story. I think we've talked about this before.

Anita is an effective agitator because she weaved a beautiful story custom fit for this forum: a tragic tale about a young woo on a journey to skepticism, who was on the way to thinking logically but just needed some help. In any community of well intentioned skeptics, such a story is all you need to cause the drama we have seen.The story works because it preys on our desire as skeptics to help people embrace reason. Thus, those not familiar with her antics here and else where will easily defend her (and they continue to) until they have dealt with her enough to see through the charade.

Its a good story. It works to divide the community, and it has been immensely successful. But it is, essentially, just Anita trolling. And we've been trolled by a professional. There is nothing interesting going on here that you wouldn't find on any community thats been trolled.

agreed

accept she is very good at keeping the story going. Responds coherently and is great at self promoting.
 
I am not bringing this up to cause a quarrel. Please review the first paragraph. I agree.

The reason I mention it is because, to me, this is the most interesting thing about VFF. That she is so polarizing. Something about her makes people respond differently when the subject comes up. They become quite passionate about the subject. Even, or rather especially, those who are dispassionate on nearly every other subject.

There have even been discussions in which people suggest that this irresponsible and immature girl will tear apart the skeptical community.

Why is that? How does she do it? There is nothing about her claims, her response to failure, or her faux-humble braggadocio that is any different from the psychics that have come before her. Yet, she's been given some strange anti-celebrity by the same people who want nothing more than to have her vanish forever.

You keep throwing fuel on the fire then asking why is it so hot.
 
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I think you appear to be giving her far to much credit. What made Anita "different" was the story she used: and it is just a story. I think we've talked about this before.

Anita is an effective agitator because she weaved a beautiful story custom fit for this forum: a tragic tale about a young woo on a journey to skepticism, who was on the way to thinking logically but just needed some help. In any community of well intentioned skeptics, such a story is all you need to cause the drama we have seen.The story works because it preys on our desire as skeptics to help people embrace reason. Thus, those not familiar with her antics here and else where will easily defend her (and they continue to) until they have dealt with her enough to see through the charade.

Its a good story. It works to divide the community, and it has been immensely successful. But it is, essentially, just Anita trolling. And we've been trolled by a professional. There is nothing interesting going on here that you wouldn't find on any community thats been trolled.

That's about the best description I've ever seen. She does love to weave a story, so there's a part of her motivation in there as well.

You seem to be implying that this division is happening because people defend her. Which is weird to me because I don't think anyone is defending her, just offering different tactics. As the most outspoken of these, I am not trying to deny or excuse her actions, only offer insight on her reasons for doing all these very odd things.

For example, if someone says that she is always vindictive and my experience has been different, I offer that information. Yes, I know her and we've hung out in real life. This doesn't mean that I'm under some spell, only that I have the benefit of seeing her as a real person and not a collection of one million words. Frankly, that real person is not as large or scary as her persona.

Judging from the reactions I get, this is being perceived as defending her. I am interested in understanding why.
 
That's about the best description I've ever seen. She does love to weave a story, so there's a part of her motivation in there as well.

You seem to be implying that this division is happening because people defend her. Which is weird to me because I don't think anyone is defending her, just offering different tactics. As the most outspoken of these, I am not trying to deny or excuse her actions, only offer insight on her reasons for doing all these very odd things.


The reason is because she's nuts. She has some kind of mental and/or social disorder. Is there really any disagreement on that?

For example, if someone says that she is always vindictive and my experience has been different, I offer that information.


And of course you'll point out where anyone has said she's always vindictive? Or is that just a pulled-from-thin-air example?

Yes, I know her and we've hung out in real life. This doesn't mean that I'm under some spell, only that I have the benefit of seeing her as a real person and not a collection of one million words. Frankly, that real person is not as large or scary as her persona.

Judging from the reactions I get, this is being perceived as defending her. I am interested in understanding why.


Maybe something to do with the fact that you defend her? And not terribly honestly as far as that goes. You know, like your implication that other people don't see her as a real person? And you know, by misrepresenting the informed skeptics' position by claiming they are biased? For example.
 
I think you appear to be giving her far to much credit. What made Anita "different" was the story she used: and it is just a story. I think we've talked about this before.

Anita is an effective agitator because she weaved a beautiful story custom fit for this forum: a tragic tale about a young woo on a journey to skepticism, who was on the way to thinking logically but just needed some help. In any community of well intentioned skeptics, such a story is all you need to cause the drama we have seen.The story works because it preys on our desire as skeptics to help people embrace reason. Thus, those not familiar with her antics here and else where will easily defend her (and they continue to) until they have dealt with her enough to see through the charade.

Its a good story. It works to divide the community, and it has been immensely successful. But it is, essentially, just Anita trolling. And we've been trolled by a professional. There is nothing interesting going on here that you wouldn't find on any community thats been trolled.

Excellent observation. I've seen several people comment about what it would take to convince her that she has no abilities, but I think that's entirely the wrong approach. I look at the situation like the TV cliche of a devil and an angel sitting on opposite shoulders of a person. That person, though, is not Anita. In my analogy the person is a fence-sitter between skepticism and woo, and Anita is sitting on one shoulder and skeptics on the other.

I do not believe for a moment that Anita has any intention of giving up her woo beliefs. She's believed she was special since childhood, but I don't think she's special enough to give up such enduring beliefs so closely tied to her self-esteem. And if you look at her long list of claims, there's far more woo than just this human MRI thing. She's even said that even if the human MRI part were "falsified" she'd still have all these other beliefs.

More importantly, she has stated that she is "entitled" to her perceptions and that she will have them all her life no matter what. The problem is that she needs to realize her "perceptions" are nothing more than figments of her imagination. This possibility is not even on the table, which is not surprising because it would mean admitting she cannot differentiate reality from fantasy.

The first question I ever asked her was if she could do readings from photos. She said yes. I then explained that her "theory" about vibrational information was absolutely bunk. Whatever she thinks she's "perceiving" from a human body cannot possibly come from a photograph. This didn't slow her down one bit.

I long ago stopped trying to convince her of anything. However, it seems others want to play this game with her even though she has turned numerous failures into successes. In the process she has remained a focus of attention, which is a shame.
 
Maybe something to do with the fact that you defend her? And not terribly honestly as far as that goes. You know, like your implication that other people don't see her as a real person? And you know, by misrepresenting the informed skeptics' position by claiming they are biased? For example.

A real person, as in "met in real life." There are a few others here who have, but the majority haven't. There is a difference between online and real life. That's all I am trying to say.
 
There have even been discussions in which people suggest that this irresponsible and immature girl will tear apart the skeptical community.

No way. She's not that big a deal.

In fact, she's not different in any way from a great many other paranormal claimants who seem to be immune to rational thought. I don't think anyone should feed her desire to feel special or important or unique, because I do believe that's what motivates a lot of her behavior. [ETA: Though I suppose it matters little whether that's what anyone does, since she'll take it that way anyhow.]

As for tearing apart skeptical community--you've got to be kidding! I propose that the group name for any collection of skeptics (sort of like "a gaggle of geese" or "a murder of crows") is "argument". Argue, discuss, disagree and debate is what we do. (Look at the mini-controversy over Phil Plaitt's "Don't Be a Dick" speech--and most critics actually like him very much!)

And that's not a bad thing at all!
 
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