Vision From Feeling

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Jonquill, are you English lol?
My Norwegian friend has been here in Australia for a very long time and she still hasnt picked up "Strine" - in fact she is "delightful" every time she tries an Aussie way of speaking because she usually gets it mixed up.
I know Anita read Wayne at the skeptics meeting, but I was of the impression the meetings are held at a pizza place.
 
Jonquill, for the purposes of this thread I will count your parents being English as a HIT.;)
 
If you read her first post and webpage. She had already contacted IIG ( according to her) and on her page she has "experimented" with her "abilities" so she came here already fully engaged in the scam. This board is mainly for PR purposes.
PR for what? The thing with the IIG has been going since July 2007.

She did her "test" in Nov and didnt miss anything ( according to her)
Did she really do those tests or is she lying?

If she has the ability to lie with impunity, which she does with 95% of the stuff she tells us, why don't we ever hear what we want to hear? To me that's the key for me to pick delusion. Every single time she has the opportunity to lie with impunity, she instead says things that damage her credibility.

I dont accept that she never self tested before. ( assuming she really believed in her ability)
Why would she lie about it? Why even come here at all? Here website as it was when I first saw it was ripe for attracting woo. Everything since then has hurt her.

So, she willingly devises "tests" that give her the "proof" she wanted. She is throwing around the term "scientific" in hopes that it will give her credibility and wants to use it.
If she's a scam artist, shouldn't she be trying to give us the "proof" that we want?

She came in here hoping to bamboozle just like con men often let a few 'marks" win to give their scam legitimacy.
Right. Uri Geller was smart enough to say that his skills were unreliable and offered that as proof it was real. But he still left a truckload of bent spoons in his wake.

Where are Anita's bent spoons?

Also, if she was all about "legitimacy" and science, why not go to the psychology department and get them to help her. No, she goes to a "skeptic" group. ( she needs skeptic buy in)
To protect her fantasy. It may also be tied to her very real fear about not wanting to share the Nobel Prize. That first came up with Anita in a private chat with me. The whole thing about the Nobel was surreal.

This is a well thought out scheme complete with an agenda, plan,goal and marketing ploy attached
This scheme is 18 months old now. None of what she did was necessary. She hasn't once approached the woos of the world.

Just to be clear, you've read all 2,000+ plus posts in this thread plus the moderated thread and her other posts here about ghosts and talk shows? And you've read everything on her website as well as the IIG protocol document with the negotiations about the rules? And you're saying that everything there fits into her pulling off a well-thought out scam?

Did you read the MDC thread with The Professor? He was a fraud, but his tactics were masterful. He garnered an incredible amount of publicity with those groups already predisposed to believe his shtick. Everything he did there was calculated to tantalize and provoke reactions that actually helped his cause. He as masterful at evading. When he couldn't evade, he would still try to find a way or just say what he really meant to say.

On many of the points Anita should evade, she simply repeats herself with increasing levels of seemingly genuine frustration when should could have lied to avoid the confrontation in the first place.

In order for me to think "intentional fraud" I would have to believe that she is an incredible actress and a masterful schemer who plans in advance. She must be someone who only pretends to make stupid mistake after stupid mistake knowing that the toughest audience out there won't be fooled. She must be incredibly patient because she will always deliberately choose not to lie when it would benefit her in the short run because she knows in the long run that it will work to her benefit. And despite writing tens of thousands of words, nobody has seen any inkling of the profit making aspect other than an off-hand comment that someone might pay $5 for a sketch of her hand or want a baby in the womb sketched.

Throughout all this she keeps bringing up crazy ideas that have nothing to do with her medical diagnosing claims (finding Bigfoot, communicating with insects, detecting chemicals and bacteria, talking to ghosts, not really being a human but an incarnation of a dwarf star).

All the while attending college at age 26 and having just three friends on Facebook, none of whom attend her college.

That's too big of a stretch for me. In isolation I can see "fraud" in numerous places. But in far too many places I have to say, "what an odd choice for someone who is a fraud." In the grand scheme of things it would have to truly be a Grand Scheme of monumental proportions with little to show for it.

I will suggest again that you chat with her personally. She's open for it. I am genuinely interested to hear what you think when you've had a chance to interact with her.
 
Jonquill, I notice that Anita uses a lot of what I call "Americanisms" in her written speech, I thought it unusual for someone who has not been in the country a good while. An example of an "Americanism" is "you bet" along with a few others but of course I could be wrong.

Allow me to set myself up as an expert on this. My wife is a Hungarian citizen with English as a second language. One of my best friend of the last 10 years has English as a third language. Living here in America I have dated citizens of Luxembourg, Germany, Italy, Slovakia and The Netherlands. For all of them English was a second or third language. I have had (or currently have) multiple people working for me from Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, and Russia. I currently have clients from Romania and Slovakia. I have spent lots of time with numerous European visitors for whom English is a second or third language. I have had two other Hungarians living in my home for a combined total of 15 months. Both had never been to the USA before and were really getting their first opportunities at English. I have visited Hungary and met many people with English as a second or third language.

This means dozens of people, thousands of hours of conversation, and countless e-mails and reports. I make my living with the written and spoken word. I'm also very perceptive and notice things that many people don't.

All of them used "Americanisms" including a 15 year old girl from Hungary who visited for a summer, and she had trouble with English since she was still learning it. Typically their grammar is above average Americans due to the formal teaching. Their punctuation, however, is incorrect more often than with native speakers. Sometimes they use odd constructions that are perfectly legitimate but almost never used by native speakers.

With Anita I have seen everything I expect and nothing I don't expect from a college educated European using English as a second language. I *really* hate to ask someone to take my word as an expert, but it would take me 10,000 words to even attempt to prove my point.

Anita is a common European name. Ikonen is a Swedish surname. We know that "Anita Ikonen" attends UNC. It's settled as far as I am concerned.
 
GeeMack:
My paranormal claim then is not to detect the scar after an injured diaphragm. I do not consider having a mental illness because I didn't detect a particular scar! It was not even consistent with my claim! How rude! Wait until I've read more people and actually claimed to detect health information and then we can have a field day discussing the implications of the results! ;)

This is a prime example of the fundamental flaw with your study. You detected a scar in the heart guy (you also knew about his heart surgery in advance). Did that mean you could detect scars? With Wayne you missed seeing the scar, so now you're saying you can't detect scars? Or does this mean you can detect chest scars with 50% accuracy?

Please concentrate on the primary goal of your study, which is to prove to everyone else that there is even anything worth studying.

Anybody know of a good statistician on the forums? We need to get some solid numbers going.
 
LONGTABBER PE:
Who are you calling a subject?!
Wonderful! I do like an Engineer! There is no farce. I'm having a study with the skeptics hopefully this Sunday February 8 after which - unless the claim has been falsified at that study - I will arrange another study in a public area with the health questionnaires. Which should all hopefully lead to a testable more specific claim so that a test can be arranged. You are of course free to suspect a farce and you can look real hard and try to find one but I dare you since you are never going to find what is not there. :p
I assure you that I am not out to scam! You skeptics are impatient, that's all.
No, I am working under the assumption that it is more likely the case of unintentional cold reading or no accuracy at all.
But I would love to do that!

*I like the way you don't use these, ' , in your words. Like dont instead of don't. But since you are an Engineer Ph.D. I can only admire you and conclude that your disuse of those just makes you seem mysterious. Like you know something. You're cool either way. Or, youre.* :p

>>>Who are you calling a subject?!

Why dont you "read" me and tell me LOL

>>>Wonderful! I do like an Engineer! There is no farce. I'm having a study with the skeptics hopefully this Sunday February 8 after which - unless the claim has been falsified at that study - I will arrange another study in a public area with the health questionnaires. Which should all hopefully lead to a testable more specific claim so that a test can be arranged.

"The wheels on the bus go round and round......" Second verse, same as the first......

>>>You are of course free to suspect a farce and you can look real hard and try to find one but I dare you since you are never going to find what is not there. :p

I've heard that before

>>>I assure you that I am not out to scam! You skeptics are impatient, that's all.

Yes you are, now what is your real end goal?

>>>I like the way you don't use these, ' , in your words. Like dont instead of don't. But since you are an Engineer Ph.D. I can only admire you and conclude that your disuse of those just makes you seem mysterious. Like you know something. You're cool either way. Or, youre

I'm glad you like it. We call it engineering shorthand. And I do know "something".
 
UncaYimmy:
Alright, UncaYimmy challenged me. Let's see... if I learn that I detect a certain ailment only 1 in 3 times when it exists in people, and the test requires me to find it ten times, then we need at least 30 people with the ailment and I just might be able to find ten claimed perceptions. At least 30 people means a minimum of 30 are required. These 30 people will of course be mixed in among a lot of other people who do not have the ailment, something I did not mention, but the statement I made is true anyway. What is the right answer?

Anita, since no one's touched this comment, I'll bite. You have 30 people with condition X, and you need to identify 10 out of 10 people with the condition correctly. Just to get an idea, roughly now many people without the condition do you think should be in the pool?

And is 1/3 your claimed detection rate for scar tissue?
 
PR for what? The thing with the IIG has been going since July 2007.


Did she really do those tests or is she lying?

If she has the ability to lie with impunity, which she does with 95% of the stuff she tells us, why don't we ever hear what we want to hear? To me that's the key for me to pick delusion. Every single time she has the opportunity to lie with impunity, she instead says things that damage her credibility.


Why would she lie about it? Why even come here at all? Here website as it was when I first saw it was ripe for attracting woo. Everything since then has hurt her.


If she's a scam artist, shouldn't she be trying to give us the "proof" that we want?


Right. Uri Geller was smart enough to say that his skills were unreliable and offered that as proof it was real. But he still left a truckload of bent spoons in his wake.

Where are Anita's bent spoons?


To protect her fantasy. It may also be tied to her very real fear about not wanting to share the Nobel Prize. That first came up with Anita in a private chat with me. The whole thing about the Nobel was surreal.


This scheme is 18 months old now. None of what she did was necessary. She hasn't once approached the woos of the world.

Just to be clear, you've read all 2,000+ plus posts in this thread plus the moderated thread and her other posts here about ghosts and talk shows? And you've read everything on her website as well as the IIG protocol document with the negotiations about the rules? And you're saying that everything there fits into her pulling off a well-thought out scam?

Did you read the MDC thread with The Professor? He was a fraud, but his tactics were masterful. He garnered an incredible amount of publicity with those groups already predisposed to believe his shtick. Everything he did there was calculated to tantalize and provoke reactions that actually helped his cause. He as masterful at evading. When he couldn't evade, he would still try to find a way or just say what he really meant to say.

On many of the points Anita should evade, she simply repeats herself with increasing levels of seemingly genuine frustration when should could have lied to avoid the confrontation in the first place.

In order for me to think "intentional fraud" I would have to believe that she is an incredible actress and a masterful schemer who plans in advance. She must be someone who only pretends to make stupid mistake after stupid mistake knowing that the toughest audience out there won't be fooled. She must be incredibly patient because she will always deliberately choose not to lie when it would benefit her in the short run because she knows in the long run that it will work to her benefit. And despite writing tens of thousands of words, nobody has seen any inkling of the profit making aspect other than an off-hand comment that someone might pay $5 for a sketch of her hand or want a baby in the womb sketched.

Throughout all this she keeps bringing up crazy ideas that have nothing to do with her medical diagnosing claims (finding Bigfoot, communicating with insects, detecting chemicals and bacteria, talking to ghosts, not really being a human but an incarnation of a dwarf star).

All the while attending college at age 26 and having just three friends on Facebook, none of whom attend her college.

That's too big of a stretch for me. In isolation I can see "fraud" in numerous places. But in far too many places I have to say, "what an odd choice for someone who is a fraud." In the grand scheme of things it would have to truly be a Grand Scheme of monumental proportions with little to show for it.

I will suggest again that you chat with her personally. She's open for it. I am genuinely interested to hear what you think when you've had a chance to interact with her.

>>>PR for what? The thing with the IIG has been going since July 2007.

Dont know honestly but I dont have to know "what" an agenda is to know there is in fact one. Sometimes you have to use the Sherlock method and eliminate items and whats left is the truth. In this case, as you state, its been going 18 months and nothing has even been started. That alone rules out legitimacy.

>>>Did she really do those tests or is she lying?

My personal opinion? She is probably lying

>>>If she has the ability to lie with impunity, which she does with 95% of the stuff she tells us, why don't we ever hear what we want to hear? To me that's the key for me to pick delusion. Every single time she has the opportunity to lie with impunity, she instead says things that damage her credibility.

simple, what "you" ( ie the people here) want to hear is the truth supported by facts and data. No con in the history of crime would do that. So, the truth is impossible- holding her own against intense scrutiny could set her up to get caught in her own words so all thats left is to lie.

We used to have this old saying about describing cons. Q: What is your name, A: Green.

They gave us an answer alright but totally useless and irrelevant.

>>>Why would she lie about it? Why even come here at all? Here website as it was when I first saw it was ripe for attracting woo. Everything since then has hurt her.

Dont know yet but her coming here and starting this is as accidental as the bombing of Pearl Harbor. Maybe hurt her here but I still hold that this board is just a ways to a yet to be determined end

>>>If she's a scam artist, shouldn't she be trying to give us the "proof" that we want?

No, where would the fun be in that? Plus she cant give you what doesnt exist.( she knows that) Actually, she is using the people here to hone her skills. What better place to come to see what doesnt work.

>>>Where are Anita's bent spoons?


Dont know, maybe back home

>>>To protect her fantasy. It may also be tied to her very real fear about not wanting to share the Nobel Prize. That first came up with Anita in a private chat with me. The whole thing about the Nobel was surreal.

That tells me theres a end goal.

>>>Just to be clear, you've read all 2,000+ plus posts in this thread plus the moderated thread and her other posts here about ghosts and talk shows? And you've read everything on her website as well as the IIG protocol document with the negotiations about the rules? And you're saying that everything there fits into her pulling off a well-thought out scam?

I've read this thread, a portion of the other, her site and the posted docs but not her posts on other threads. Yes, I am saying that.
 
One thing that's been bugging me...

I may have missed it in all the text, but has it come out yet, whether the tired shoulder was ever mentioned to Wayne himself? And did he confirm or deny whether one shoulder was tired?

Even though it's only a 50-50 thing (right or left), it was a definite positive identification of a health issue. If I thought I could identify health issues, seems to me I'd be dying to know if he actually did feel a difference in one shoulder and whether I'd identified the correct shoulder. It might have been too minor for him to mention spontaneously, but if one shoulder felt more tired than the other, he would at least be aware of which one if asked.

Of course, it would be way too easy to coax an answer from a compliant subject, either obviously: "I'm sensing a tiredness in your left shoulder. Is that correct?" Or more subtly: "Something about your shoulder... it seems tired" (wait for subject to look toward one shoulder or move his arm to test it) "Yes, your left shoulder...".

I wonder if Wayne wasn't compliant enough to go along? Or Anita lost her nerve and didn't want to risk putting a binary answer to the test?

By the way, my father was a paranoid schizophrenic and also a scientist (worked for NASA back in the 1960s), so I've seen combinations of logic and irrationality. If we're placing bets, I'd put my money on delusion rather than deliberate scam. Is there like a pool? When is the winner going to be announced? :D
 
GeeMack:
I already know that I haven't provided any evidence in support of the paranormal claim yet. I already know that my past experiences were not witnessed or documented by skeptics or scientists and weren't made into evidence. I already know that my past experiences are only compelling to me since I and the persons who were present for a reading (usually only the persons being read) were the only ones there. I already know, I already know.

I definitely did not fail with Wayne. He wrote *a list* of his health problems which, turns out only contained a past accident which he has fully recovered from which only has the scar after it and no sensations of discomfort or other permanent damage or discomfort. That was all. Then I was fully expecting logically there to be a lot of health problems with the person but I couldn't find any no matter how hard I tried. I tuned up the "ability" to desperately try to find at least "one of those things on his list" and all I could sense was a very insignificantly tired left shoulder, and the adam's apple. So I concluded that I found nothing wrong. And, turns out, there was nothing wrong to be found. Just a scar. Which I missed. And that is not a failure. I did very well. :p
I haven't even had much chances to demonstrate any extra-sensory abilities! I've only had one chance and that was with Wayne! And he didn't have anything wrong with him! According to my perceptions the man was in beautiful health, better than average! (His heart, lungs, liver and digestive system all looked absolutely wonderful and healthy. It was a delight to see.)

But Hoooneeeyyy!!! I am most willing to demonstrate and to be put to the test! I am able to demonstrate it!!! Bring me some people with hidden health problems! I haven't failed anything! There is no joke! I perceive medical information when I look at people! Bring me some people and I will show you what I mean! :p
I am neither mentally ill nor a liar! You however are very impatient. :p
Impatient? :confused:

As worried as you are about being legal you should watch those medical claims. It is against the law to practice medicine without a license.

If you live in any leased space you may be breaking your lease by doing paranormal experiments there. You should get permission.
 
>>>PR for what? The thing with the IIG has been going since July 2007.

Dont know honestly but I dont have to know "what" an agenda is to know there is in fact one. Sometimes you have to use the Sherlock method and eliminate items and whats left is the truth. In this case, as you state, its been going 18 months and nothing has even been started. That alone rules out legitimacy.

>>>Did she really do those tests or is she lying?

My personal opinion? She is probably lying

>>>If she has the ability to lie with impunity, which she does with 95% of the stuff she tells us, why don't we ever hear what we want to hear? To me that's the key for me to pick delusion. Every single time she has the opportunity to lie with impunity, she instead says things that damage her credibility.

simple, what "you" ( ie the people here) want to hear is the truth supported by facts and data. No con in the history of crime would do that. So, the truth is impossible- holding her own against intense scrutiny could set her up to get caught in her own words so all thats left is to lie.

We used to have this old saying about describing cons. Q: What is your name, A: Green.

They gave us an answer alright but totally useless and irrelevant.

>>>Why would she lie about it? Why even come here at all? Here website as it was when I first saw it was ripe for attracting woo. Everything since then has hurt her.

Dont know yet but her coming here and starting this is as accidental as the bombing of Pearl Harbor. Maybe hurt her here but I still hold that this board is just a ways to a yet to be determined end

>>>If she's a scam artist, shouldn't she be trying to give us the "proof" that we want?

No, where would the fun be in that? Plus she cant give you what doesnt exist.( she knows that) Actually, she is using the people here to hone her skills. What better place to come to see what doesnt work.

>>>Where are Anita's bent spoons?


Dont know, maybe back home

>>>To protect her fantasy. It may also be tied to her very real fear about not wanting to share the Nobel Prize. That first came up with Anita in a private chat with me. The whole thing about the Nobel was surreal.

That tells me theres a end goal.

>>>Just to be clear, you've read all 2,000+ plus posts in this thread plus the moderated thread and her other posts here about ghosts and talk shows? And you've read everything on her website as well as the IIG protocol document with the negotiations about the rules? And you're saying that everything there fits into her pulling off a well-thought out scam?

I've read this thread, a portion of the other, her site and the posted docs but not her posts on other threads. Yes, I am saying that.
I too believe that she is not the real deal . 18 months and not even made a start after coming out of the supernatural closet .

FAKE ALL OVER like Uri and Sylvia .

I to am in the process of revealing the supernatural, Yet my personal deadline is only a few months . The 18 months wait is nothing more than fraudulent limbo .

Not impressed .
 
VisionFromFeeling said:
Are you sure? So if I go to a public street anyway, and do this, no one is going to come to stop me and get me in trouble? Are you sure about this? *I just don't want to break the law.*
Look it up.

It's already been looked up for her. Her "concern" about the law is just another smokescreen. She's been bending other laws for years. :rolleyes:

Belz said:
VisionFromFeeling said:
my morals are pretty high.

Sure, Vision, whatever you say.

She keeps saying that. Protesting too much.
 
I foresee Anita's future in this equation:

Greta Alexander x Dr Leon E Curry = Anita Ikonen
loved and revered by fire fighters, police officers, the science community, the medical community and the gullible general public.
Oh, just out of interest did anyone know that Dr Leon E Curry is going to make an appearance with Sylvia Browne?

Its a small world after all......


I want to see Greta Alexander make an appearance with Sylvia Browne. :eye-poppi
 
OK, I've kind of been skipping over the last few pages, so sorry if this has already been said. There are two points about this 0-5 scale and percentage hits that are rather serious problems. Firstly, the scale as it stands makes it extremely difficult for Anita to fail. If she picks 3 on everything, then the average score is 70%. This makes the "percentage hit" pretty much useless as a measure, since what actually needs to be measured is the difference between the base 70% and the achieved score. Note that the score from picking randomly would be lower (I haven't bothered calculating it, but I'd assume it would be 50%). However, it's not success above chance that matters here, it's success above someone trying to intelligently cheat the system that is more relevant.

A more sensible scoring system would be:
If both pick the same number, it's a hit.
If the numbers are different by 1, it's a partial hit.
If the numbers are different by more than 1, it's a miss.

This would be by no means perfect, but it could at least serve as preliminary measure of whether these "perceptions" are even close.

However, there is a bigger problem with this scale as used in the study that probably makes the whole thing pointless. That is what the scores actually mean. A "0" is taken to mean that the person does not suffer from that ailment. Not a problem. But what does a "5" mean? Most people would take this to mean that the ailment is about as serious as it could possibly be, probably meaning hospitalisation or at least chronic illness and probably confined to home. How many people suffering like that are going to be wandering around a park and willing to give up their time to answer a questionnaire? A "4" is less serious but, again, you're unlikely to find many people who would rate themselves as that ill just taking a stroll outside.

What does that leave us with? Well, on Anitas percentage scale that means it's impossible for her to score less than 60%, and all she would need to do is guess 1 or 2 for each one and she'd be pretty much guaranteed an average of around 80%. On my revised scoring she'd still get 1/4 hits and 1/2 near misses.

The thing is, the scale in itself is not necessarily flawed. However, it only works if ailments are evenly distributed over the whole scale. If you start of with a biased subset then the final score will be much higher, and you will almost certainly get a result that will be interpreted as "Something interesting requiring further investigation", even if that is not at all the case. Note that this applies both ways, and not just in the park. A study with the skeptics' group will suffer the same bias towards healthy people, while a study in a hospital, for example, will have the population biased the other way.
 
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Either Anita can acquire information about other people's medical conditions by some sort of extra-sensory ability, or she can't.

If she can, she is wholly incapable of convincing another single soul that it might be true. Perhaps everyone else in this discussion has sub-par communication skills... or Anita has. Or possibly she's just too stupid to understand and to make herself understood.

The trouble is, to those already committed to woo and who may be desperately flailing around for someone like VfF, all the writings here and elsewhere will probably be enough to convince them to seek her out. And if our hunches here are correct, after establishing (on the flimsiest of "evidence") that VfF does have a mystical ability to make diagnoses, offering her victims clients prescriptions for whatever ails them cannot be far behind.

<snip>


M.
 
Anita intends to use chance and probability to her advantage. She fails to realize that any of us can do this; she cannot demonstrate something that we cannot do. Essentially, that's all she needs to do: do something that no-one else can do.

Unfortunately for her, there's nothing that she can do that we can't (except escape logic).

I have to repeat, that this is the easiest thing in the world to test. As someone said, merely get 5 skeptics in a room, some of whom have ailments detectable as according to Anita.

We can even tell Anita what ailments are in the room. All she has to do is pick the person for said ailment. And viola! Sorted. Done. Finished.


I know this won't push this process forward at all, Anita has an awful excuse for everything. I mean, she is essentially doing a study for an ability which has not been established.

I understand that it was Anita that came up with this whole "study" idea - does anyone even agree that this would get anyone anywhere? I say we push her toward a very simple test; it would save a hell of a lot of time. But she won't do it. Or she'll screw it up.

"But I'm trying! There's nothing more I can do!" Silly woman.
 
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