Vedic Astrology : Open Thread

[Ryokan]

Yes, blue eyed parents can have non-blue eyed children.
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/aprilholladay/2004-10-14-wonderquest_x.htm

Indeed. I majored in biology in high school, and it included a course in genetics. However, all four of my grandparents have blue eyes (I'm from Norway, brown eyes aren't that common around here). Of course, I have no idea if any of my great-grandparents have the grey eye gene (or brown), so it's not a complete impossibility.

However, I have 8 uncles, 3 aunts, 2 sisters and 3 brothers (My family loves to procreate! ). They all have blue eyes. It's still not impossible that my family carry grey eye genes (or brown!), but it's highly unlikely.

You may not remember but the forecasts were not vague or general. You were given months and specific details about those months - not catch-all predictions. Would you say those were cold readings when you know that apart from birth details no other information was passed?

Yes, I was supposed to mention that but forgot! Many of the predictions from the reading was very precise. I don't believe they were cold readings at all. If it was, it was a pretty crappy attempt

 

[bagtaggar]

If you are born ten minutes before or after, then that person is not you. It will change the planets and hence the forecasts.

I donot know why there was a such a total mismatch. The possible suspects are :

(1) Inaccuracy in Birth time.
(2) Inaccuracy in the details I passed on to the Astrologer.
(3) Inaccuracy in calculations on Astrologer's part.
(4) Vedic Astrology is not accurate.

And yes, blue eyed parents can have non-blue eyed children.

With all due respect, ManLondon, you need to be a little more critical in your thinking about this. There is absolutely no possible physical way in which the position of the planets and stars can affect your life to such a degree as to alter your very genetics. (Also keep in mind that often doctors don't bother to declare the time of birth for a matter of minutes anyway, since that's not the most important thing in the world).

I want you to really think about this: There is NO POSSIBLE WAY FOR THE PLANETS TO ALTER YOUR GENETICS.

The ONLY realistic possibility here is that Vedic Astrology relies on tricks like cold reading and backdoor research to generate horoscopes and personality profiles of people, and requires a very subjective interpretation to make the whole thing work.

Why is this so difficult to swallow, ManLondon? All reason points to this. There is absolutely no reasonable way in which the positions of the planets and stars can change who you are. This is not a limitation of my creative ability to imagine how they might affect ones life, nor is it closed minded. It's just conceding that reality doesn't allow such things to occur!

Why is this so impossible?

We've demonstrated before hand how it is logically impossible for Vedic Astrology to be legitimate and how the reality is much less mystical.

A forum member offered to have his horoscope generated based on his birthday.

He tested and the horoscope failed miserably.

Of course we are going to conclude that Vedic Astrology is not legitimate. We feel this to be a reasonable conclusion, with evidence to support it.

What's the issue??

 

[Ryokan]

Ryokan Greetings! How are you?

Yes, it was a total mismatch, like I said as well . I would not say there were any hits at all because it was not your horoscope.

Hello there! Feeling okay, actually. Nothing to complain about. Feel free to chat me up on GoogleTalk if you're bored

What do you mean, there were not any hits at all? Are you trying to say I'm not brave and courageous?

 

[ManLondon]

I want you to really think about this: There is NO POSSIBLE WAY FOR THE PLANETS TO ALTER YOUR GENETICS.

Sorry I did not mean to say that the planets can change the genes.
All I posed was an article from a medical professional that it is possible that blue-eyed parents have a non-blue eyed child.
Thats all!
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/aprilholladay/2004-10-14-wonderquest_x.htm

We've demonstrated before hand how it is logically impossible for Vedic Astrology to be legitimate and how the reality is much less mystical.

A forum member offered to have his horoscope generated based on his birthday.

He tested and the horoscope failed miserably.

Of course we are going to conclude that Vedic Astrology is not legitimate. We feel this to be a reasonable conclusion, with evidence to support it.

Interesting! Could you please post the link to that thread please. I have had bit too much on my plate and have not had time to search JREF forum for previous attempts to test Vedic Astrology.

 

[Ryokan]

Interesting! Could you please post the link to that thread please.

Although not 100% sure, I believe he's refering to me.

 

[bagtaggar]

Indeed I was, Ryokan.

Sorry I did not mean to say that the planets can change the genes.

But this is precisely what you have been indirectly claiming this whole time.

The necessary implication of Vedic Astrology being correct is that planetary motion and stellar motion affect your genetics.

If a Vedic Astrologer says "you're eyes are blue" based on his observations of heavenly bodies, it implies that those heavenly bodies somehow affect your genetics.

Are you going to defend that as a possibility?

 

[Garrette]

I haven't really been following the thread, so forgive me if this has been covered, but this bit stopped me cold:

Originally posted by ManLondon:

If you are born ten minutes before or after, then that person is not you. It will change the planets and hence the forecasts.

Please tell me how these astrologers have been so successful given less than a 20 minute window with which to be accurate.

We have seen on this forum that people have difficulty demonstrating the exact times of their births, and these are--for the most part--technically savvy people in a technically savvy age.

Are you suggesting that all the Vedic Astrologers in the past have been able to divine birth times of poor people in a less technically advanced age with a precision greater than that of today?

Your assertions collapse under their own weight.

 

[Garrette]

Actually, I have a proposal, ManLondon, and I mean it seriously.

Assume two hypothetical people, not yet born.

Pick one real place. You pick it and pick it exactly. As an example: Bed two in room 209 of the Nursery at St. Swithen’s Hospital in Mundovia. Latitude and longitude are: ###### #######

Now pick two times exactly ten minutes apart, for example 1130 (am for the Americans like me) and 1140.

Now provide the following:


1. An personality profile (or whatever type of profile works best in Vedic Astrology) for Hypo Person 1.

2. The same for Hypo Person 2.

3. The planetary alignment for Hypo Person 1 (including all celestial bodies involved in creating the profile).

4. The same for Hypo Person 2.

5. Most importantly: Highlight the differences between items 3 and 4.

I am extremely interested in seeing a demonstration of the astronomical skill of the astrologer who can note astronomical differences in ten minute increments.

I suppose you could use one of the astronomical computer applications out there, but if you do so, please understand that you would be indicating that all astrologers prior to the advent of such programs were hopelessly wrong, hence the art has no historical validity.

I may sound a bit flip in writing this, but I do propose it seriously.

 

[ManLondon]

Actually, I have a proposal, ManLondon, and I mean it seriously.

Assume two hypothetical people, not yet born.

Pick one real place. You pick it and pick it exactly. As an example: Bed two in room 209 of the Nursery at St. Swithen’s Hospital in Mundovia. Latitude and longitude are: ###### #######

Now pick two times exactly ten minutes apart, for example 1130 (am for the Americans like me) and 1140.

Now provide the following:


1. An personality profile (or whatever type of profile works best in Vedic Astrology) for Hypo Person 1.

2. The same for Hypo Person 2.

3. The planetary alignment for Hypo Person 1 (including all celestial bodies involved in creating the profile).

4. The same for Hypo Person 2.

5. Most importantly: Highlight the differences between items 3 and 4.

I am extremely interested in seeing a demonstration of the astronomical skill of the astrologer who can note astronomical differences in ten minute increments.

From the little information I have on Vedic astrology, it is very much possible.
There may be some similarities and differences in forecasts for the above persons.

I suppose you could use one of the astronomical computer applications out there, but if you do so, please understand that you would be indicating that all astrologers prior to the advent of such programs were hopelessly wrong, hence the art has no historical validity.

I may sound a bit flip in writing this, but I do propose it seriously.

The Vedic Astrology consists of two parts. First part is pure astronomy. i.e. calculating the position of planets at any give time as seen from a given location. This part of Vedic Astrology is non-debatable. Scientists openly subscribe to the calculations done thousands of years ago and find them valid. The second part is based on the planetary positions, predict a person's fate. This part is open to discussion.

The Vedic Astrology is said to be written thousands (around 4000 years or so ago). They could calculate the planetary positions before the telescopes were invented. They had written equations to calculate the positions of planets at any given time (future and past).

The principles of Astrology have not changed (atleast not much, if at all). The modern day tools like computers and calculators only speed up the calculations. Computers cannot think. Computers do the only calculations they are taught or programmed to do.
Majority of Vedic Astrologers do and did these calculations without using computers. Which means they are going to take longer to do the calculations but they will be able to do it without computers.

There is a book called "Panchang" which has the positions of planets recorded going forward and backward in time which is used heavily by Vedic Astrologers.

Have I cleared it?

 

[Garrette]

No, not really.

I understand that. I know that there is a difference between the "scientific" part and the "predictive/descriptive" part.

My proposal deals with both but it does it separately.

Show the predictive/descriptive differences between two people born at exactly the same place but ten minutes apart.

Show the astronomical calculations used to derive those differences.

I suspect a Vedic astrologer would have difficulty doing either when the difference is only ten minutes, but you have made it clear that ten minutes is a killer.

---

Which gets to my first objection which you have not yet addressed: How did Vedic astrologers determine birth times to such accuracy? How did they do it in the past, and how do they do it now?

Has everyone they have ever provided a profile for been able to give an exact time of birth? Have Vedic astrologers refused to give profiles for anyone whose birth time was not precisely known to within less than ten minutes? I tend to doubt this.

 

[bagtaggar]

This part is open to discussion.

Ok, let's have that discussion ManLondon, as I see you are stubbornly avoiding the issue.

Let's ignore the vague nature of horoscopes for a moment, along with the countless instances where they are just downright wrong.

Explain to me the mechanism you or any astrologer proposes by which planets and their motion through the cosmos affects your genetic structure?

 

[bagtaggar]

Let me simplify that.

This is the connection I want you to make, ManLondon:

Planetary Motion effects Human Genome/Neurological Behavior by means of _______________.

 

[ManLondon]

Let me simplify that.

This is the connection I want you to make, ManLondon:

Planetary Motion effects Human Genome/Neurological Behavior by means of _______________.

Really the answer is I donot know. I am not an Astrologer.
I myself have wondered so many times that how can planets and stars so far away affect our personalities and shape our future. And thats why I am not so sure about Vedic Astrology.

But I am willing to find out one way or another, for sure

 

[ManLondon]

Show the predictive/descriptive differences between two people born at exactly the same place but ten minutes apart.

I did a test on myself. I shifted my birthtime by 10 minutes in one direction. Doing so, I got a horoscope (planetary position) pretty much same. i.e. in the 12 houses, I got exactly same planets. Except that the degrees i.e. distance that these planets had travelled within the house was different.

Then I shifted my birth time by 10 minutes in the other side, and this time, the planets had shifted the houses.

I got some forecasts which were same as before some were different.

I know for sure, that there is a provision to measure time in very small sections. So that is not is a problem.

Show the astronomical calculations used to derive those differences.

I suspect a Vedic astrologer would have difficulty doing either when the difference is only ten minutes, but you have made it clear that ten minutes is a killer.

I am not an astrologer, so not sure how long is "10 minutes" before it becomes a killer.

Though I have tested it on myself that 10 minutes can make a difference though not a huge difference.


---

Which gets to my first objection which you have not yet addressed: How did Vedic astrologers determine birth times to such accuracy? How did they do it in the past, and how do they do it now?

If you suspect that people could not measure time accurately before Quartz then simple answer is that if they can measure planetary positions, I am sure they could determine the time as well. Because planetary positions are meaningless without time and space.

Has everyone they have ever provided a profile for been able to give an exact time of birth? Have Vedic astrologers refused to give profiles for anyone whose birth time was not precisely known to within less than ten minutes? I tend to doubt this.

Donot know the answer to this one. But I know people can methods to arrive at correct birth time, if it is not known accurately.

 

[Ryokan]

If the ancient Vedics were that taken by the stars, they would probably write down the star positions at the time a child was born. That way, they didn't really need the time of birth, they already had the star positions.

I have no idea if this is true, though, just a hypothesis. Maybe ManLondon knows?

 

[ManLondon]

If the ancient Vedics were that taken by the stars, they would probably write down the star positions at the time a child was born. That way, they didn't really need the time of birth, they already had the star positions.

I have no idea if this is true, though, just a hypothesis. Maybe ManLondon knows?

Ryokan, we cant just look up the sky and note down the planetary position. It is recorded with great precision and details.
What those guys had written were some equations to know the planetary positions at any given time and space.

i.e. f(x) = f f(z)
where x = planetary positions
y = DateTime
z = Location

Time is need to get the planetary position at that time as they keep changing their positions. Similarly Location is needed to get the positions as seen from that Location. Basically, time and location wil given us a unique position of an object in Time and Space.

 

[bagtaggar]

Really the answer is I donot know. I am not an Astrologer.
I myself have wondered so many times that how can planets and stars so far away affect our personalities and shape our future. And thats why I am not so sure about Vedic Astrology.

But I am willing to find out one way or another, for sure

But you are NOT willing, of course, to accept the possibility that planets and stars don't do any of that.

I am not an astrologer, so not sure how long is "10 minutes" before it becomes a killer.

Though I have tested it on myself that 10 minutes can make a difference though not a huge difference.

And yet it made a world of difference for Ryokan's horoscope, right?

Ryokan, we cant just look up the sky and note down the planetary position. It is recorded with great precision and details.
What those guys had written were some equations to know the planetary positions at any given time and space.

i.e. f(x) = f f(z)
where x = planetary positions
y = DateTime
z = Location

Time is need to get the planetary position at that time as they keep changing their positions. Similarly Location is needed to get the positions as seen from that Location. Basically, time and location wil given us a unique position of an object in Time and Space.

Tracking and predicting planetary motion is tricky but not impossible, many neolithic cultures were capable of it. You just need a lot of patience.

Question is, were those same cultures, in this case the Vedic culture, capable of taking planetary motion and somehow converting it to useful data about a persons physical, emotional, and psychological makeup?

More importantly, if there exists no known connection, or no known way to connect the two with todays far superior knowledge of mathematics, physics, biochemistry, neurology, etc... how could a primitive neolithic culture determine a connection that, at the very least, would require high order quantum computing to scratch the surface of if it were remotely true?

Is it not, ManLondon, a more realistic assumption that this is simply a misguided and uninformed endeavour to find some answers in life?

I guess I don't understand why that isn't more than just a distant possibility to you, and instead doesn't cause you to seriously doubt the validity of astrological claims.

 

[JLam]

ManLondon also submitted my info for a reading, and it didn't go very well. There was only one hit. There was a mention of some sort of significant relationship event "perhaps a proposal" in the 7th or 10th month after my birthday. I did in fact get engaged during that time. That was the only hit.

But here's the answer that many people are looking for.

The question is, how do you determine the correct birth time?

Here's the answer that I was able to get from a vedic astrology site:

QUESTION: I am certain that my birth time is correct, but the astrologer says that it must be rectified because it does not match the events of my life. Please explain. Although it may seem straightforward, difficult questions arise when attempting to establish the correct time of birth. For example, does birth take place at the onset of labor? Or when the child emerges from the birth canal? Or when the umbilical cord is cut? Or at the first breath? What if an emergency procedure is required, such as cesarean section? Moreover, what if a clock is unavailable, or set incorrectly?
In Vedic astrology the "actual" known birth time is only a starting point for determining what might be called the true or "karmic" birth time, which marks the beginning of the person's destiny and to which all subsequent life events can be traced. Strange as it may sound, this time may occur even before the actual physical birth.
When preparing a horoscope, the first step is to prepare a birth chart using the time when the person was actually born, according to hospital or family records, or the testimony of witnesses. The astrologer then compares this chart against significant events in the person's life. If these events match the chart, the astrologer is fairly sure that the actual birth time is the true or karmic birth time. If they do not match, the astrologer adjusts the birth time until a chart is produced that accurately reflects all known events in the person's life.
The rectified time may appear incorrect when compared with family or hospital records or witnesses' personal remembrance of the event. It may be difficult to accept, for example, that the rectified birth time is before the actual recorded time of birth. To the astrologer, however, the rectified time signifies the onset of the person's destiny.
Even if rectification is not requested, the astrologer will check the birth time in this way. Should none of the person's life events match the given birth time, he will indicate that rectification is necessary. Sometimes, when the difference between the actual and true birth time is not great, and will not significantly change the reading, he will proceed without rectification.
To someone not skilled in Vedic astrology, the procedure sounds mysterious, but then astrology itself is mysterious and its laws not always easily explained. The best judgement of your horoscope is how accurately the reading describes you, your character, attributes, and circumstances. If the reading is accurate, then the birth time used was correct, even though you know you were "actually born" at a different time. However, if you can honestly say that nothing in the reading is correct, and that you do not recognize the person described, then some error remains with the birth time.
Of course, even if the new birth time is correct, interpretive errors in the reading may still result, because astrologers cannot know everything, although in the broad portrait they are usually accurate.

So, if they cast a chart and it's right, then they're right. But even when they're wrong, they're right, because they just keep casting charts until they find one they like. Then they determine the "karmic" birth time based on the new chart. It's quite a neat little trick.

ManLondon has been very gracious and I think we made some real progress in private conversation. I think that he's really interested in finding out the truth. Just give him some time to really examine things and wrap his head around it. He's getting there

 

[Garrette]

Originally posted by ManLondon:

I did a test on myself. I shifted my birthtime by 10 minutes in one direction. Doing so, I got a horoscope (planetary position) pretty much same. i.e. in the 12 houses, I got exactly same planets. Except that the degrees i.e. distance that these planets had travelled within the house was different.

This is what I'm asking for except not in generalities. Since you've done it, please provide the planetary positions. Exact positions, please, as you've indicated you can determine them and have, in fact, done so.

Originally posted by ManLondon:

I am not an astrologer, so not sure how long is "10 minutes" before it becomes a killer.

As has been pointed out, you're changing your tune.

Originally posted by ManLondon:

If you suspect that people could not measure time accurately before Quartz then simple answer is that if they can measure planetary positions, I am sure they could determine the time as well. Because planetary positions are meaningless without time and space.

You misunderstand.

I am not, for purposes of this aspect of the argument, disputing the ability of Vedic astrologers to tell time. My point is that--even if they could tell time with the accuracy of an atomic clock--they needed to be able to tell the time, within minutes of accuracy according to you, of the birth of everyone they provided profiles for. How did they do this? Did an astrologer attend every birth with a sextant (for position) and telescope (for planetary position)? Or did they, as is more likely, ask people when they were born and get a general answer not reliable to within a few minutes.

Try again?


Edited for format

 

[bagtaggar]

I'm glad to hear that! So often people get so caught up in their beliefs that they don't realize when their being stubborn or ignorant. I'm glad this is not the case with ManLondon, and that he has the fortitude of mind and the inquisitive nature to be open to the possibility his beliefs might not be correct.

That's a big step that few are able to make! Bravo, ManLondon, my hat goes off to you.