delphi_ote
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Here is the correspondence with this astrologer. Unfortunately, this astrologer was not up to the task:
http://206.225.95.123/forumlive/showthread.php?t=41120
Here is the correspondence with this astrologer. Unfortunately, this astrologer was not up to the task:
http://206.225.95.123/forumlive/showthread.php?t=41120
Thanks for the link. I have not gone through the link in details. But from the opening thread it does seem like something possbile through Vedic Astrology.
Birth of child can be forecasted (by telling possible birth time windows - usually months) using a man and woman's horoscopes. Though, woman's horoscope is more important than man's. Even miscarriages can be forecasted.
Note that Keeran offered to identify the correct father from a group of 20 fathers. He did not say that he will work out a person's date and time of birth from the questionnaire / information on life.
I think (not 100% sure), his task would involve matching the "possible" child birth time windows, from mother and fathers's horoscope. It is like a mathematical equation with three variables. x, y and z. Two are known (Mother and Child) and we need to derive the third (father) from a set of 20.
Yeah, seems possible.
Will go through the thread in detail.
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burrahobbit
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Hi Manlondon. Nice to see you back live and kicking
A clarification
Casesensitive : Palmistry is not astrology. A true astrologer works only with star charts and date, time and place of birth.
Now to my own cases
Having lived in India all may life I have had extensive exposure to astrologers, more indirect than direct (being the sceptic son of a sceptic, i have not consulted too many)
I have seen a number of "Hits" in astrological predictions. A closer analysis however usually reveals that the predictions were general enough to make the probability good. Manlondons first post is a case in point. A prediction that his female friend will have a problem with the " bladder or uterus" area is a high probability guess. Once it is confirmed, no power on earth will make Manlondon believe it was not a perfect prediction.
A clarification
Casesensitive : Palmistry is not astrology. A true astrologer works only with star charts and date, time and place of birth.
Now to my own cases
Having lived in India all may life I have had extensive exposure to astrologers, more indirect than direct (being the sceptic son of a sceptic, i have not consulted too many)
I have seen a number of "Hits" in astrological predictions. A closer analysis however usually reveals that the predictions were general enough to make the probability good. Manlondons first post is a case in point. A prediction that his female friend will have a problem with the " bladder or uterus" area is a high probability guess. Once it is confirmed, no power on earth will make Manlondon believe it was not a perfect prediction.
burrahobbit
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Now to specifics
The maximum info that I have is on the "matching" of horoscopes before a marriage. In our community, most marriages are still family decided affairs. The boy and girl are formally introduced by common friends and if they like each other, things proceed. But before this stage is reached, the families look at the background of each other and, most importantly, "match" the horoscopes. The asteologers who do this are supposed to be the best in teh business (and very expensive)
Now we come to the anecdotal evidence
1) I know of no less than six cases in my close friend and relatives circle where marriages broke down and ended up in Divorce. (This is still very very rare in India). All six were cases where the horoscopes "matched" beautifully. This is out of maybe 200 marriages on which I have data
2) I also know of atleast 10 cases where no such matching was done where the couple is very happily married. In three of the cases, when we took the horoscopes to an astrologer later, the report was that they should never get married.
The maximum info that I have is on the "matching" of horoscopes before a marriage. In our community, most marriages are still family decided affairs. The boy and girl are formally introduced by common friends and if they like each other, things proceed. But before this stage is reached, the families look at the background of each other and, most importantly, "match" the horoscopes. The asteologers who do this are supposed to be the best in teh business (and very expensive)
Now we come to the anecdotal evidence
1) I know of no less than six cases in my close friend and relatives circle where marriages broke down and ended up in Divorce. (This is still very very rare in India). All six were cases where the horoscopes "matched" beautifully. This is out of maybe 200 marriages on which I have data
2) I also know of atleast 10 cases where no such matching was done where the couple is very happily married. In three of the cases, when we took the horoscopes to an astrologer later, the report was that they should never get married.
burrahobbit
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I can list a number of similair instances.
There are also computer programs that are available which claim to forecast your future. I have not had the time or spare money to buy one and test it!!
In general Vedic Astronomy seems more complex and is taken more seriously than Western astrology. However, except for a very small minority, noone takes major decisions based solely on the astrological predictions.The primary uses in India are
1) To arrive at the auspicious TIME to start a new activity (not to decide WHETHER to start)
2) As a preliminary filter to eliminate prospective marriage relationships
3) To find solace when going through tough times
I have not found anyone complaining that "the astrologer did not predict correctly" The tendency to forget the misses is very strong.
There are also computer programs that are available which claim to forecast your future. I have not had the time or spare money to buy one and test it!!
In general Vedic Astronomy seems more complex and is taken more seriously than Western astrology. However, except for a very small minority, noone takes major decisions based solely on the astrological predictions.The primary uses in India are
1) To arrive at the auspicious TIME to start a new activity (not to decide WHETHER to start)
2) As a preliminary filter to eliminate prospective marriage relationships
3) To find solace when going through tough times
I have not found anyone complaining that "the astrologer did not predict correctly" The tendency to forget the misses is very strong.
burrahobbit
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A true story
A businessman consulted an astrologer. he was told that his horoscope was excellent. He would be very successful, lucky etc...
The businessman then told the astrologer that his business was on the verge of failure and he was about to file for bankruptcy.
The astrologer rechecked the charts and confirmed that he was, indeed, lucky. "You are on the verge of bankruptcy. But for the strength of your horoscope, you would be in jail""
A businessman consulted an astrologer. he was told that his horoscope was excellent. He would be very successful, lucky etc...
The businessman then told the astrologer that his business was on the verge of failure and he was about to file for bankruptcy.
The astrologer rechecked the charts and confirmed that he was, indeed, lucky. "You are on the verge of bankruptcy. But for the strength of your horoscope, you would be in jail""
case sensitive
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Why don't you challenge all Vedic astrologers you know of or find on the internet to try Randi's challenge. If they can find the birth time by looking at someones palm that would be paranormal. If no one wants to try well then you know how much they believe in their own work.
vbloke
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I find myself wondering if Vedic astology has the same roots as western astrology. If so, then it is hopelessly outdated, innaccurate and just plain wrong.
Let's assume for a minute that astrology actually works. No questions, it just does.
Now, when the astrological signs were drawn up origianlly, it was done around 600BC. Each sign (eg: Scorpio) are exactly 30° wide - they are measured eastward along the ecliptic from the vernal equinox, which is the intersection of the elliptic and the celestial equator and is the zero point.
When the system was originally set up, the zero pint was in Aries and was called the "first point of Aries".
Aries encompassed the first 30° of the ecliptic, next came Taurus (30° to 30°), Gemini (60° to 90°) and so on...
This scheme ignored the actual stars themselves, but uniformity was more important than fussing about star positions.
Since then, precession has caused the celestial equator to wobble so as to cause the intersection pount between it ad the ecliptic to move westard along the ecliptic by 36° or a tenth of the way around.
Your birth sign ignores the effect of precession. What a horoscope calls "Aries" is the 30° segment along the ecliptic that is east of the current location of the vernal equinox - but today, most of it is in Pisces. The next 30° segment (called Taurus in the horoscope) is mostly in Aries.
The astrologcal signs are directions in space that no longer correspond to the constellations that bear their names.
Precession causes the position of the sun on the vernal equinox to move as the earth wobbles on its axis - then again, the position of the sun varies on every date (analemma). This means that it is not only the names of the zodiac signs that are now wrong, the names of the tropics are also inaccurate!
This all dates to when the sun is within the constellation of your birth sign. According to astology (corrected for precession - although these dates will vary slightly from year to year), you may find that you're actually a different birth sign.
If you were born between November 30th and December 17th, you're actually an Ophiuchus.
What happens in astrology is that the sun travels through the traditional 12 signs of the zodiac over the course of the year. Whatever sign the sun is in when you're born is the sign you "are". However, over the past 2,600 years (since the charts were drawn up), the precession of the earth has shifted the ecliptic westwards and now the sun visits the constellation of Ophiuchus during November/December. I very much doubt you'll find a horoscope that takes this into account.
Capricorn: January 20th to February 16th
Aquarius: February 17th to March 11th
Pisces: March 12th to April 18th
Aries: April 19th to May 13th
Taurus: May 14th to June 21st
Gemini: June 22nd to July 20th
Cancer: July 21st to August 10th
Leo: August 11th to September 16th
Virgo: September 17th to October 30th
Libra: October 31st to November 23rd
Scorpio: November 24th to November 29th
Ophiuchus: November 30th to December 17th
Sagittarius: December 18th to January 19th
I hope this clears things up about astrology.
Since I'm no longer Cancer and am now Gemini "all of a sudden", does this mean I'll have to change my character and I can sue astrologers for giving me wrong information?
Let's assume for a minute that astrology actually works. No questions, it just does.
Now, when the astrological signs were drawn up origianlly, it was done around 600BC. Each sign (eg: Scorpio) are exactly 30° wide - they are measured eastward along the ecliptic from the vernal equinox, which is the intersection of the elliptic and the celestial equator and is the zero point.
When the system was originally set up, the zero pint was in Aries and was called the "first point of Aries".
Aries encompassed the first 30° of the ecliptic, next came Taurus (30° to 30°), Gemini (60° to 90°) and so on...
This scheme ignored the actual stars themselves, but uniformity was more important than fussing about star positions.
Since then, precession has caused the celestial equator to wobble so as to cause the intersection pount between it ad the ecliptic to move westard along the ecliptic by 36° or a tenth of the way around.
Your birth sign ignores the effect of precession. What a horoscope calls "Aries" is the 30° segment along the ecliptic that is east of the current location of the vernal equinox - but today, most of it is in Pisces. The next 30° segment (called Taurus in the horoscope) is mostly in Aries.
The astrologcal signs are directions in space that no longer correspond to the constellations that bear their names.
Precession causes the position of the sun on the vernal equinox to move as the earth wobbles on its axis - then again, the position of the sun varies on every date (analemma). This means that it is not only the names of the zodiac signs that are now wrong, the names of the tropics are also inaccurate!
This all dates to when the sun is within the constellation of your birth sign. According to astology (corrected for precession - although these dates will vary slightly from year to year), you may find that you're actually a different birth sign.
If you were born between November 30th and December 17th, you're actually an Ophiuchus.
What happens in astrology is that the sun travels through the traditional 12 signs of the zodiac over the course of the year. Whatever sign the sun is in when you're born is the sign you "are". However, over the past 2,600 years (since the charts were drawn up), the precession of the earth has shifted the ecliptic westwards and now the sun visits the constellation of Ophiuchus during November/December. I very much doubt you'll find a horoscope that takes this into account.
Capricorn: January 20th to February 16th
Aquarius: February 17th to March 11th
Pisces: March 12th to April 18th
Aries: April 19th to May 13th
Taurus: May 14th to June 21st
Gemini: June 22nd to July 20th
Cancer: July 21st to August 10th
Leo: August 11th to September 16th
Virgo: September 17th to October 30th
Libra: October 31st to November 23rd
Scorpio: November 24th to November 29th
Ophiuchus: November 30th to December 17th
Sagittarius: December 18th to January 19th
I hope this clears things up about astrology.
Since I'm no longer Cancer and am now Gemini "all of a sudden", does this mean I'll have to change my character and I can sue astrologers for giving me wrong information?
Disclaimer:I really donot know much about the Western Astrology (or for that matter, even Vedic Astrology) to answer to your question to great length. However.....
I vaguely remember that the two systems are very different.
Seems like you are talking about Western Astrology here because in Vedic Astrology, all the planets travel through the horoscope, not just the Sun.
And it is the Moon which decides the sign not the Sun.
In Vedic Astrology, there are no fixed set of dates and then a corresponding sign. People born, few minutes apart, at the same location, will have a different sign because the Moon would have changed it house in minutes and hence the person will have a different sign.
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Thanks burrahobbit.
I also have the same impression that Vedic Astrology using horoscope is more accurate than Palmistry because it is more mathematical.
True, I also have examples where the predictions did not seem very accurate or specific. I wonder whether it is because the Vedic Astrology is crap or whether it is due to lack of experience, knowledge and time spend on horoscope. That is the idea behind starting this thread.
I am also aware of few cases where the marriages have broken, even though the horoscopes were matched by a Vedic Astrologer.
I think, we will to keep marriages out of this. I tell you why. Divorces are extremely rare in India, so even when horoscopes were matched and there was no divorce we wont know whether the marriage was successful because the horoscopes were matched or because the couple tried to make it work, anyway.
Another case, possibly against Vedic Astrology:
One of my real uncles, (who is also my favourite uncle - he does not believe is God and can break bricks with bare hands - nothing paranormal just that he has developed physical strength by practising judo, karate), had no exact birth time. He got married to my aunt who also did not had exact birth time. So there were no horoscopes matched. Their marriage has been so very successful over the last 20 years or so.
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JUST to complete the list. It is very common for people to consult an astrologer to find a suitable time to do something that they were planning to do. And the astrologer advises against it and people may back out.
True, people can forget the predictions when it did not prove to be true.
Yes, I could try that if I was so very sure about Vedic Astrology. Maybe I should ask the astrologer about it to see what he thinks about this challenge.
vbloke
Disturbing shirts
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A quick google brings up this:
So, once again, it takes no account for precession, or the fact that Uranus, Neptune and Pluto have been discovered since the charts were originally conceived of.
If Vedic astrology takes positions of planets into account, how come Mercury has an effect, but the much more massive Uranus and Neptune don't?
If this is true, then Vedic astrology is twice as inaccurate as western astrology, as western astrology is based on charts that are 2600 years old.
Are you able to share your personal experiences of forecasts done for you by astrologers? i.e. what did you think of the forecasts done for you?
vbloke
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Another point:
according to one Vedic astology site, they do use the Ptolemaic constellations for their calculations.
according to one Vedic astology site, they do use the Ptolemaic constellations for their calculations.
If this is true, then Claudius Ptolemaeus (aka Ptolomy) lived approximately 5000 years before it is known he actually lived.
I also studied it(V/I.A). It is in the relavant books that exact predictions are possible. But the problem can be in the different theories for calculations esp. planet's degrees, dashas etc.
Moreover, understanding & incorporating everything may require big super computer type brain & memory, as computers may not work for eveything. I also studied other relevant alt. systems, homeopathy, ayurveda etc. I therefore feel,
One may consider gross predictions not exact one--I mean, monthly, yearly or more.
One may consider fixed and non/less contradictary aspects as Lagna/Asc., Match making, relation's understandings bit seriously and effects on planets movements bit grossly.
Several type of dashas(periods) are indicated. So it is not clear--so can be considerd more prominent type of dasa, still at very gross level.
Remedial measures & time effects, should be considered with deepest knowledge & considering some basic issues. It may be possible that mistaken measures and predictions are indicated by many or most, without considering some issues at most basic level. So let us not contradict the theory, but should see the capabilty or the "vested self interest" part.
Best wishes.
Moreover, understanding & incorporating everything may require big super computer type brain & memory, as computers may not work for eveything. I also studied other relevant alt. systems, homeopathy, ayurveda etc. I therefore feel,
One may consider gross predictions not exact one--I mean, monthly, yearly or more.
One may consider fixed and non/less contradictary aspects as Lagna/Asc., Match making, relation's understandings bit seriously and effects on planets movements bit grossly.
Several type of dashas(periods) are indicated. So it is not clear--so can be considerd more prominent type of dasa, still at very gross level.
Remedial measures & time effects, should be considered with deepest knowledge & considering some basic issues. It may be possible that mistaken measures and predictions are indicated by many or most, without considering some issues at most basic level. So let us not contradict the theory, but should see the capabilty or the "vested self interest" part.
Best wishes.
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Thanks vbloke. Interesting discussion. For the first time, I had to use google for this thread.
For starters, here is a comparison of Vedic and Western astrology by a professor. He says both the systems are very different.
http://sify.com/lifestyle/astrology/fullstory.php?id=13308506&t=Astro%20Facts
I really donot know the concept of precession. I did a google on "precession astrology" and the first website seem to mention the same question that you had posted. Reading first line on the following link
" Astrology claims that someone born on 30th March has the sun at 10° Aries, whereas in reality on 30th March the sun is clearly in the fixed star constellation of Pisces."
tells me that Vedic Astrology is not being discussed here. There is no relation of Sign (which in based on Sun in Western and on Moon in Vedic) and the fixed set of dates in Vedic Astrology.
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:kHgRYcBcgKEJ:www.astro.com/astrology/in_praezession_e.htm+precession+astrology&hl=en
I am sure you can understand this link better than me because this seem to apply to Western Astrology only.
I donot know the answer to this. But in every Vedic horoscope, there are two more psuedo planets or nodes, called Rahu and Ketu (UMBRA and PENUMBRA) that are also considered in addition to the planets that you have mentioned. They are treated almost like planets.
http://sify.com/lifestyle/astrology/fullstory.php?id=13308506&t=Astro%20Facts
The above link talks about it as well.
"Vedic system uses mainly the two luminaries and five other planets but include two “CHAYA” shadow planets viz Rahu and Ketu. Their importance can be judged from Physics definition of UMBRA and PENUMBRA points when two luminaries interact. The importance of these becomes evident by the fact that an eclipse occurs whenever luminaries and these fall in a straight line."
Which shows that thousands of years ago they were aware of Solar and lunar eclipses.
In addition, this a mythological representation of eclipses which was written thousands of years ago. Rahu and Ketu (Umbra and penumbra, modern language) are in a same line when we have eclipses.
In Vedic Astrology, Rahu and Ketu occupy totally opposite houses to each other. e.g. if Rahu in in 5th house, then Ketu is in 11 th house and so on.
http://www.sanskrit.org/Astronomy/Rahu.html
Also, I am not very sure but maybe because Neptune, Pluto and Uranus are the outer most and the most far away planets, they may have lesser effects. (Just guessing!)
That may not be true to draw this conclusion. Thousands of years ago, they seem to know about the planets, stars, positions, movements, eclipses which we have discovered only later on. I am really amazed.
Oh that is easy one. No Vedic Astrologer would claim that Vedic Astrology is based on Ptolemaic constellations for their calculations because that is untrue. I think there is some confusion here.
Vedic Astrology is based on ancient texts written thousands of years ago. They were not based on Claudius Ptolemaeus's calculations because he came much later.
Does the website say that they use both Vedic and Western Astrology?
Found another link which explains the difference between Vedic and Western Astrology and says that Vedic does not need any precession.
http://www.vedicastrology.org/vedicastro.html
Vedic Astrology is Star Based or Sidereal --- Western is Season Based or Tropical
It is important to know that Vedic astrological calculations are different from what most of us have seen in the Western systems. Vedic Astrology is sidereal or based in reference to the stars. All its calculations are constantly adjusted for a back slipping motion of the earth called precession. The earth's axial spin retards or moves back about one degree or one day every 72 years, in relationship to a fixed star. The astronomy of the sky that you observe each night in our modern times is nearly matched to the zodiac constellations used in Vedic Astrology calculations.
In Western astrology, the planetary positions presented in their Zodiac do not represent today's astronomical positions. They tend to focus more on the seasons as markers of time. The Tropical zodiac remains unchanged from what was seen in the skies almost 2000 years ago by the ancient Greeks, Egyptians and Babylonians. The two systems are about 23 days apart (called the "ayanamsa") from where they mark the first point of the sign of Aries, which is the start of the circle of the zodiac (you have to start a circle somewhere). Again, this is due to that slow precessed, backward slipping of the earth. What this means, astrologically, that unless you were born somewhere between the 15th and 20th of the month, your Sun sign will most likely move back one sign in Vedic Astrology.