I believe if a person can write a up a "reading" that several different persons can feel is an accurate reading for them, it would be a small problem to make a program that can produce such readings in large numbers.
I am not going to give up my reseach on validating Vedic Astrology. But so far, I really donot think these were catch-all or One-Size-Fits-All predictions.
Just to gather opinions from another person,
What do you think of the infertility problem, Reiki healer (stating the profession) and my travel that had been predicted?
Do you think those were generic predictions that would fit all?
JLam
Proud Skepkid Parent
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I'm a bit confused. Were these predictions given by an astrologer in person, over email, or through an instant response generated by filling out a form on the web?
vbloke
Disturbing shirts
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from the look of the links you posted here, Rahu and Ketu are not "invisible planets" as is claimed, but rather the intersections of the sun and moon's orbits, which is totally inaccurate, as the sun and moon do not cross paths ever.
This much is true, but the diagrams presented here show the moon and sun orbits to be the same size, even intersecting. If this was true, then solar eclipses would never happen - the moon would hit the sun!
How can something that is not a planet, just an imaginary point in space be treated as a planet?
If this is true, then it should alter over time, as the positions of the planets change position in the constellations due to precession. Has this been demonstrated in vedic astrology? Do the charts change over time?
yes it does, it correlates the Ptolemaic constellations directly against the vedic ones.
http://www.indianastrology2000.com/
Umbra and Penumbra are just names for partial darkness from an eclipse and the darkest part of a shadow - how do these correlate to two "invisible planets"?
Any system of astrology has to take precession into account, no matter what it's adherents say, as over the course of 26,500 years, the positions of stars change dramatically, as do the apparent positions of the moon, sun and other planets against these stars. To say that it does not use precession means that it is equally as outdated and inaccurate as western astrology. This is without taking orbital eccentricities into account, peturabtions caused by gravitational forces of moons and other planets that can only be detected over a period of years by careful observation and calculation. The planets change their orbital aspects with respect to Earth over time and precession causes their orbits to appear to change.
As has been brought up in other astrology threads, can you ask your astologer exactly what forces are played upon a person at their point of birth that determine their personality/character? I can guarantee you that any force that is eminating from the planets will be overwhelmed by a person standing next to you. Even a nearby lightbulb will be hotter than the sun.
The first one (travel to London) was given in person. For my friends, the forecasts were made online. Though a website's online service.
bagtaggar
Critical Thinker
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ManLondon, I just don't see why this isn't readily apparent to you, from the get go, if you excersise some critical thinking:
How could planetary and stellar motion possibly affect your day to day life? I mean really? Planets and stars are just enourmous masses of hydrogen, nickel, iron, etc. The only way they affect you are through gravity and electromagnetic radiation (i.e. radio waves, light, etc).
With this in mind, you have to consider the physical laws that govern such objects. Look at gravity. According to the inverse square law concerning gravity, your obstetrician has more gravitational influence on you at the time of birth than does the Sun, Jupiter, Saturn, or any distant star. Orders of magnitude more influence in fact. He/she is certainly (apparently) brighter than any object in the sky.
So what's left? You've got hunks of matter floating around in space, moving as predicted by fundamental laws of physics, strewn about randomly throughout the cosmos according to a long chain of causality stretching back to when the radiation density in the Universe started to differentiate, what the hell is left?
The only thing left is people using probability, guessing, and psychological trickery to convince others that they have a power that doesn't really exist, in order to make some scratch to buy some bread to feed themselves.
How could planetary and stellar motion possibly affect your day to day life? I mean really? Planets and stars are just enourmous masses of hydrogen, nickel, iron, etc. The only way they affect you are through gravity and electromagnetic radiation (i.e. radio waves, light, etc).
With this in mind, you have to consider the physical laws that govern such objects. Look at gravity. According to the inverse square law concerning gravity, your obstetrician has more gravitational influence on you at the time of birth than does the Sun, Jupiter, Saturn, or any distant star. Orders of magnitude more influence in fact. He/she is certainly (apparently) brighter than any object in the sky.
So what's left? You've got hunks of matter floating around in space, moving as predicted by fundamental laws of physics, strewn about randomly throughout the cosmos according to a long chain of causality stretching back to when the radiation density in the Universe started to differentiate, what the hell is left?
The only thing left is people using probability, guessing, and psychological trickery to convince others that they have a power that doesn't really exist, in order to make some scratch to buy some bread to feed themselves.
Well said! I totally agree with every bit of it. That is why I am still not sure about Vedic Astrology. I have really been asking myself exactly the same questions many times.
Then, I got the predictions from this astrologer. Also the fact that thousands of years ago, they not only knew about these stars, planets but also there movement and position at any point of time. Which is remarkable. This is a proven fact that current science accepts and there are written scripts available on the accuracy of the Astronomy side of Vedic Astrology written thousands of years ago. Yes, the prediction side is debatable among scientists.
I have been told that one of the eariest universities known to man were in Nalanda, one of the earliest form of plastic surgery was performed by Panini, and advanced maths mentioned with formulae in Vedic texts.
Now, if we believe that with the progress of time, we humans have become more intelligent, more knowledgeable, have better tools and equipment etc. then how come those guys knew about these things that we came to know much later that too in pieces and gradually.
Maybe there is something beyond our current level of intelligence. Maybe we "lost" those intelligence levels somehow and started again?
I really donot know. It makes me humble and more open to the fact that there maybe something that we need to explore that maybe our current levels of intelligence.
PS: Sorry for the delay, I got distracted.
Yes, it is remarkable. But hardly paranormal, nor is it unique to India. It simply says that these people took close account of the movements of the visible heavenly bodies above them.
Whoops, you have run two things together here - a false conclusion. Yes, there are written scripts that scientists agree show accurate astronomical data from that time (presumably collected by Vedic astrologers, who were interested in such things). No, they do NOT debate whether it is anything to do with Vedic Astrology prediction.
Again, you are running two pieces of information together unnecessarily. Certainly there may well have been "advanced maths" in ancient texts, but as these texts haven't been referenced to evaluate them (have you?), it's not yet possible to draw the conclusion that "they knew things that we have only just learned". Perhaps they were only "advanced" in comparison to their neighbouring civilisations, who might barely have been able to read, write and count. Perhaps some actual research might be in order?
Ah, the appeal to "ancient knowledge" as being somehow "greater" than what we know today - the "Atlantis Gambit". A simple response is to ask, if they had knowledge beyond what we know today, why they didn't have, and leave evidence of, such crude technology as we have now: electricity, powered vehicles, radio & TV, aircraft, atomic energy, space-flight, etc. Another question is: Why didn't their civilisation survive to this day being in possession of all this amazing knowledge? For at least one feasible answer, you need to consider that this might all be just wishful thinking...
bagtaggar
Critical Thinker
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Well, damn. You got the predictions, what can I say?
I'm still curious as to what, if anything, can this astrologer know that you can't. Clearly this isn't "lost intelligence" or whatever you call it, because someone knows how to do it. In fact, I'm pretty sure you could go to the book store and pick up a book on vedic astrology today if you so desired.
This man is using the exact same "knowledge" as the ancients to perform his "predictions".
So what is there? I mean really. How is this man, armed with his feathers and beads and charts and whatnot, able to tap into the very fabric of reality and inform you of events that have not yet transpired? How is it that multi-million dollar particle accelerators, physics laboratories, and thousands of institutions across the planet cannot peer even a femtosecond into the future? Wouldn't all of this break some fundamental rule of causality? If the future is already determined, what happens if you know about it and decide to change it?
What is this man doing?
I'll tell you what he's doing. He's using his wits, his experience, and good old probability. You aren't the only person who comes to him. He probably sees hundreds of people a week, thousands a year, who knows how many in his lifetime. It's not a big loss to him if he's wrong. Others are willing and ready to pay for his services the moment you leave. You'll only remember the "hits" anyway. That's enough for you to be intrigued and come back to him, shelling out some more cash for his "services". From what I understand, Astrology in India is pretty popular, more so than in the United States. This guy makes a decent chunk of change off of folks like yourself.
"How could he know that I was going on a trip?" "How did he know that she had a problem down there?"
How many people do you think this guy runs across that just tell him that they are going on a trip, within a particular frame of time? How many woman suffer from urinary tract infections, STDs, cysts, growths, etc? (same goes for men)
So you got two hits. Two.
Remember to put this into perspective. This isn't just two hits for you, it might be two hits for the week, or for the month, or even for the year. It doesn't matter. People question things much less than you do, all they need is an excuse, just one tiny possibility to convince themselves to come back for more, and he's in business.
Again, I really don't see why this is raising any serious questions in your head if you are truly a critical thinker.
It looks more like you want to believe.
I'm pretty sure this is still a verifiable claim.
Of course there's always the get out for the Astrologer of "you may think you were born at 06.00 but in fact you were born at 22.00"
I offered to be a test subject for ManLondon's Vedic astrology early in this thread, and he accepted by PM. I gave him all the information about me that he needed, and earlier this week I got my reading.
Or well, I didn't get the complete reading, but ManLondin asked me questions (via GoogleTalk) about the results he were given, to see how accurate it was.
However, to get my reading I had to promise not to discuss the results of the readings here in the forum. I agreed to this, so it would be highly unethical for me to do such a thing.
But, if ManLondon is still around, I would like to ask him to please change his mind.
ManLondon, didn't you come here to have a serious talk about Vedic astrology? I don't really see the point of not letting me discuss the results in a thread where the goal is to find out how accurate Vedic astrology is.
I'm glad you're a Buddhist, because that allows me to speak a language you understand. I believe you are so attached (as per the second Noble Truth) to the idea of Vedic astrology being true and accurate that it would cause you anguish to even consider it being wrong. This is not very Buddhist of you. Now, having attachments is nothing to be ashamed of, I have plenty of them myself. But although I know about them, and often have a hard time getting rid of them, I acknowledge that they, in fact, are attachments, and that I would be better of without them. That's what Buddhism is all about. I'm not saying Vedic astrology is false or correct, I'm just making a note about your attachment to the idea of Vedic astrology being correct not being a good thing. As I know you've studied the Four Noble Truths, I know you know what I'm talking about.
Also, during your studies of Buddhism, have you read the Kalama Sutra?
Observation and analysis, that's what we're doing in this thread. If Vedic astrology is false, and millions of people rely on it every day in important affairs like marriage, business and other aspects of their personal lives, then it is not "conductive to the good and benefit of one and all." That why it's imperative that we analyse this and get to the truth of it.
ManLondon, I know it's hard, but don't let your attachments get in the way of searching for the truth.
Or well, I didn't get the complete reading, but ManLondin asked me questions (via GoogleTalk) about the results he were given, to see how accurate it was.
However, to get my reading I had to promise not to discuss the results of the readings here in the forum. I agreed to this, so it would be highly unethical for me to do such a thing.
But, if ManLondon is still around, I would like to ask him to please change his mind.
ManLondon, didn't you come here to have a serious talk about Vedic astrology? I don't really see the point of not letting me discuss the results in a thread where the goal is to find out how accurate Vedic astrology is.
I'm glad you're a Buddhist, because that allows me to speak a language you understand. I believe you are so attached (as per the second Noble Truth) to the idea of Vedic astrology being true and accurate that it would cause you anguish to even consider it being wrong. This is not very Buddhist of you. Now, having attachments is nothing to be ashamed of, I have plenty of them myself. But although I know about them, and often have a hard time getting rid of them, I acknowledge that they, in fact, are attachments, and that I would be better of without them. That's what Buddhism is all about. I'm not saying Vedic astrology is false or correct, I'm just making a note about your attachment to the idea of Vedic astrology being correct not being a good thing. As I know you've studied the Four Noble Truths, I know you know what I'm talking about.
Also, during your studies of Buddhism, have you read the Kalama Sutra?
Observation and analysis, that's what we're doing in this thread. If Vedic astrology is false, and millions of people rely on it every day in important affairs like marriage, business and other aspects of their personal lives, then it is not "conductive to the good and benefit of one and all." That why it's imperative that we analyse this and get to the truth of it.
ManLondon, I know it's hard, but don't let your attachments get in the way of searching for the truth.
burrahobbit
Thinker
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Ryokan
I always thought Buddhism was the only sensible religion around(without knowing too much about it). I am now totally convinced.
The Kalama Sutta shall be framed and hung in my office forthwith.
I always thought Buddhism was the only sensible religion around(without knowing too much about it). I am now totally convinced.
The Kalama Sutta shall be framed and hung in my office forthwith.
Mojo
Mostly harmless
He really doesn't want this stuff subjected to any kind of scrutiny or discussion, does he?
What I quoted was the short version of the Kalama Sutra.
If you want to read the original text (translated into English, of course, most people are not fluent in Pali
), here it is :http://www.buddhistinformation.com/the_kalama_sutra.htm
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Allright, ManLondon has given me permission to discuss the reading I was given, based on my exact time of birth and where I was born.
I did not get to see the reading, ManLondon asked me questions based on it, to see how accurate it was.
Of course, this is now so long ago, that I barely remember half of it! Heh...
But it failed, and failed miserably. The only hits were generic and subjective like 'you are brave and courageous'. There was a lot about my job situation, and I'm currently unemployed. There were some bits about my love life, I have none and haven't been involved with a girl for nearly three years (Yeah, I know, I'm pathetic
). There were even some bits about my in-laws, and I've never been married.
I was also told I would be tall and well built, with grey eyes. I'm short, stocky and have blue eyes.
ManLondon agreed that the reading was a total miss. When I asked him what he thought the reason for the miss was, the reply was that my time of birth must've been wrong! Belive me, it wasn't.
But even if it was... Let's assume that the doctor who wrote my birth certificate missed by ten minutes. If I had been born 10 minutes later or earlier, I would've had grey eyes, and not blue eyes like the rest of my family? I would'v been tall and well-built, instead of short and stocky like the rest of my family? I'm sorry, I'm not buying that.
I'm sorry this wasn't more detailed, it's all from the memory of a chat I had a week ago. I should've made notes.
ManLondon won't name the astrologer that gave the reading, as he's afraid that the sceptics on this board will badmouth him.
I did not get to see the reading, ManLondon asked me questions based on it, to see how accurate it was.
Of course, this is now so long ago, that I barely remember half of it! Heh...
But it failed, and failed miserably. The only hits were generic and subjective like 'you are brave and courageous'. There was a lot about my job situation, and I'm currently unemployed. There were some bits about my love life, I have none and haven't been involved with a girl for nearly three years (Yeah, I know, I'm pathetic
). There were even some bits about my in-laws, and I've never been married.I was also told I would be tall and well built, with grey eyes. I'm short, stocky and have blue eyes.
ManLondon agreed that the reading was a total miss. When I asked him what he thought the reason for the miss was, the reply was that my time of birth must've been wrong! Belive me, it wasn't.
But even if it was... Let's assume that the doctor who wrote my birth certificate missed by ten minutes. If I had been born 10 minutes later or earlier, I would've had grey eyes, and not blue eyes like the rest of my family? I would'v been tall and well-built, instead of short and stocky like the rest of my family? I'm sorry, I'm not buying that.
I'm sorry this wasn't more detailed, it's all from the memory of a chat I had a week ago. I should've made notes.
ManLondon won't name the astrologer that gave the reading, as he's afraid that the sceptics on this board will badmouth him.
Well, we can bad-mouth him anyway: He must be a lousy cold reader! It seems that he is so used to people swooning over his readings no matter what he writes that he even forgets to make them sufficiently vague. Instead of declaring you tall, he should have said "you are towering over your surroundings" so that it is not clear if it is your physical height or your immense intellect he is talking about!
ManLondon has said that he is skeptical about paranormal claims, and this certainly should make him look at his own readings and see if they are not nebulously worded after all, or if the astrologer really could not have known some of the facts before the reading.
As I have said before, ManLondon could show selected parts of the reading to us, and we will see if we agree that they are as precise as ManLondon believes.
Of course, this is now so long ago, that I barely remember half of it! Heh...
But it failed, and failed miserably. The only hits were generic and subjective like 'you are brave and courageous'. There was a lot about my job situation, and I'm currently unemployed. There were some bits about my love life, I have none and haven't been involved with a girl for nearly three years (Yeah, I know, I'm pathetic
Ryokan Greetings! How are you?
Yes, it was a total mismatch, like I said as well . I would not say there were any hits at all because it was not your horoscope. You may not remember but the forecasts were not vague or general. You were given months and specific details about those months - not catch-all predictions. Would you say those were cold readings when you know that apart from birth details no other information was passed?
If you are born ten minutes before or after, then that person is not you. It will change the planets and hence the forecasts.
I donot know why there was a such a total mismatch. The possible suspects are :
(1) Inaccuracy in Birth time.
(2) Inaccuracy in the details I passed on to the Astrologer.
(3) Inaccuracy in calculations on Astrologer's part.
(4) Vedic Astrology is not accurate.
And yes, blue eyed parents can have non-blue eyed children.
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/aprilholladay/2004-10-14-wonderquest_x.htm
Yes, blue eyed parents can have non-blue eyed children.
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/aprilholladay/2004-10-14-wonderquest_x.htm
I can really understand yours reasonings for concluding on Vedic Astrology. So I donot mind if you have already reached a conclusion.
But please allow me to say thanks to you because it has just been proved again that I was right in keeping the astrologer annonymous.
I donot mind if someone does not believe in Vedic Astrology or badmouths it to one's heart's content. I just donot want to disclose the Astrologer and risk making bad causes by being part in badmouthing someone who is not a proven charlatan. esp. when the thread has been started by me.
Anyway, please we wont get anywhere by concentrating or badmouthing this Astrologer. Our discussion is Vedic Astrology not this Astrologer.