Trump's promised ICE raids have begun

[plague311]

Tbh... hindsight is 20-20. From the videos I saw, I think the 'domestic terrorism' angle from the administration is a big stretch. The ice officer may also not have been in imminent lethal danger. That said, you have protesters physically obstructing the roads and impeding immigration enforcement.

Obstructing and impeding immigration enforcement does not warrant a lethal response. At best it would be worthy of a court date, maybe an arrest and a fine. The woman was driving away from the officers, not towards.

As far as I'm concerned you're dealing with a situation where an officer has to make a split second interpretation on intent and a protestor that refused to comply with orders to exit the vehicle.

Again, none of this warrants a lethal response...at all. There was no reason for her to get out of her vehicle as she'd done nothing wrong. Even if she "should" have gotten out of her vehicle, refusing to do so doesn't mean you shoot her in the ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ face. That doesn't even make sense and I am mind boggled at how folk are defending it.

Her death was completely preventable in more ways than one.

She didn't shoot herself in the face. It was preventable by 1 person and 1 person alone. He had no right to shoot and kill her and there is no justifiable reason for him to have killed this woman.

I don't think the situation would have escalated the way it did if she had remained calm.

Her stay calm? You don't think maybe the guy with the ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ gun should have remained calm? Lol. I mean, seriously? She seemed pretty calm, all things considered. She just wanted to leave. This is victim blaming at it's finest.

But we'll have to see how the investigation shapes out.

It might not be under this administration, but I'll bet any amount of money that this man is going to be convicted of a crime for this shooting.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

situations like this are specifically outlined in police manuals and handbooks. There's decades of precedent.

Reed Richards couldn't get to "domestic terrorism" from that video.

He wasn't.

Good. this is a standard protest action.

Again, police are specifically trained in situations like this. Those goons broke every known protocol. Most agencies specifically forbid firing into or from a moving vehicle.

Police and federal agents are also authorized to use lethal force if they feel they're in imminent danger of severe bodily harm. When you have someone ignore orders to exit a 2-ton vehicle, and they start speeding away with them in close proximity, you have as few as fractions of a second to interpret the situation. At the end of the day... maybe the evidence proves their situation didn't rise to that level. It doesn't change the fact that if the driver complied and exited the vehicle, she might not have died in that situation.

 

[Donal]

The mom picking up her kids from school needs to stay perfectly calm with masked, unidentified, armed thugs pointing guns at her but said guns, who allegedly are trained federal law enforcement agents, can't be expected to.

 

[Darat]

The shooting is being investigated by the FBI and the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, working together.

If ICE were being run honestly and competently, ICE would also conduct an internal investigation, but few expect that to happen.

A court case could be federal or state. Few expect a federal case, because Attorney General Pam Bondi would probably interfere with any attempt to bring a federal case; even if such a case were successful, President Trump has already decided the outcome in his own mind and would probably pardon anyone convicted of a federal crime. The state of Minnesota could bring a case, but it's hard for a state to prosecute a criminal case against federal agents; it has been done, but such cases are rarely successful.

Will we hear that the officer can't be identified.... Or he is now in another state?

 

[Resume]

It might not be under this administration, but I'll bet any amount of money that this man is going to be convicted of a crime for this shooting.

This cowardly, dickless mother ◊◊◊◊◊◊ will probably commit another violent act not covered by his immunity.

 

[Resume]

He had plenty of time to double-tap her through the window.

 

[Donal]

Police and federal agents

Where were the federal agents in that video?

are also authorized to use lethal force if they feel they're in imminent danger of severe bodily harm.

That isn't happenign in this video

When you have someone ignore orders to exit a 2-ton vehicle,

You mean when masked gunmen were trying to kidnap her?

and they start speeding away with them in close proximity,

No, JD, she wasn't speeding, she was turning away from them. The unidentified masked gunmen got in front of her.

you have as few as fractions of a second to interpret the situation.

Which is why there is training for this specific situation.

At the end of the day...

They are murderers and anyone defending them is a bootlicker.

maybe the evidence proves their situation didn't rise to that level.

Evidence being the video we all see

It doesn't change the fact that if the driver complied and exited the vehicle, she might not have died in that situation.

Or she would have been kidnapped and worse by unidentified armed gunmen.

 

[JayUtah]

The shooter actually walked round the passenger side of the car, then directly in front of it, so presumably he didn't think she was a threat at that point. Given that was the point that the other agent was trying to get her door open it's possible she didn't even know the shooter was there.

This is why the Dept. of Justice regulations require officers not to place themselves in the path of a moving vehicle, or a vehicle that may move unexpectedly. To most of us this is common sense. In the case of federal agents, it's a legal requirement to carrying out their duties.

Tbh... hindsight is 20-20.

situations like this are specifically outlined in police manuals and handbooks. There's decades of precedent.

I agree. The point of training is to convert hindsight into foresight. This is why ICE is routinely despised by regular law enforcement. They're poorly trained and therefore dangerous. Prior to Pres. Trump, ICE did not generally perform tactical operations. Not even the veteran officers are properly trained for the role Trump has thrust them into.

Police and federal agents are also authorized to use lethal force if they feel they're in imminent danger of severe bodily harm. When you have someone ignore orders to exit a 2-ton vehicle, and they start speeding away with them in close proximity, you have as few as fractions of a second to interpret the situation.

No.

The rules governing the use of lethal force explicitly forbid applying it to the driver of a vehicle who presents no more a threat of harm to the officer than operating the vehicle. Real officers are trained accordingly. The rules governing operations around vehicles specifically preclude the officers putting themselves in a vehicle's line of travel. Real officers are trained accordingly. Real officers have an obligation to avoid the harm from a moving vehicle first by removing themselves from the vehicle's path. This training is mean to reduce or eliminate the circumstances under which officers may be expected to exercise split-second judgment.

 

[johnny karate]

Police and federal agents are also authorized to use lethal force if they feel they're in imminent danger of severe bodily harm. When you have someone ignore orders to exit a 2-ton vehicle, and they start speeding away with them in close proximity, you have as few as fractions of a second to interpret the situation. At the end of the day... maybe the evidence proves their situation didn't rise to that level. It doesn't change the fact that if the driver complied and exited the vehicle, she might not have died in that situation.

Do what we tell you and you might not die.

 

[Resume]

<respectful snip>

The rules governing the use of lethal force explicitly forbid applying it to the driver of a vehicle who presents no more a threat of harm to the officer than operating the vehicle. Real officers are trained accordingly. The rules governing operations around vehicles specifically preclude the officers putting themselves in a vehicle's line of travel. Real officers are trained accordingly. This training is mean to reduce or eliminate the circumstances under which officers may be expected to exercise split-second judgment.

There's the problems: Real officers, and training.

 

[Resume]

Do what we tell you an you might not die.

That's already a talking point among right-wing blood-thirsters.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

Or she would have been kidnapped and worse by unidentified armed gunmen.

Or she would have been detained for a couple of hours and released.

 

[3point14]

Police and federal agents are also authorized to use lethal force if they feel they're in imminent danger of severe bodily harm.

Does the only apply to policemen?

Aren't civilians entitled to the same level of response if they feel they're in imminent danger of bodily harm?

If so this could lead to some amusing* interactions in future...



(*By 'amusing', I, of course mean horrific and indicative of a breakdown in society that will cause Putin to make happy little KGB squeaky noises. Funny that...)

 

[Donal]

Or she would have been detained for a couple of hours and released.

Are you sure?

Even if they were real ICE agents, you admitted that cooperating wouldn't guarantee her safety.

It doesn't change the fact that if the driver complied and exited the vehicle, she might not have died in that situation.

emphasis mine

 

[Grizzly Bear]

They are murderers and anyone defending them is a bootlicker.

So this is the standard of argument you want to go with? Quite the low bar. But very unsurprising.

 

[Darat]

Where were the federal agents in that video?

That isn't happenign in this video

You mean when masked gunmen were trying to kidnap her?

No, JD, she wasn't speeding, she was turning away from them. The unidentified masked gunmen got in front of her.

Which is why there is training for this specific situation.

They are murderers and anyone defending them is a bootlicker.

Evidence being the video we all see

Or she would have been kidnapped and worse by unidentified armed gunmen.

Undoubtedly that he fired through her windscreen will show how he was in front of her and she was about to knock him over... oh.... Anyway everyone knows shooting a driver instantly brings a car to a dead stop.

 

[Donal]

So this is the standard of argument you want to go with? Quite the low bar. But very unsurprising.

Yes, the bar is low for ICE and its simps.

 

[johnny karate]

Or she would have been detained for a couple of hours and released.

Maybe we'll detain you, maybe we'll kidnap you, maybe we'll assault you, maybe we'll kill you.

Yes, seems like very reasonable dice to roll.

You're doing great. Keep going.

 

[Resume]

Yes, the bar is low for ICE and its simps.

There is no bar for iceholes.

 

[plague311]

So this is the standard of argument you want to go with? Quite the low bar. But very unsurprising.

You're setting the bar for law enforcement lower than you are setting it for a civilian. Why is that? A few have asked you, but you seem to be avoiding it.