Trump's promised ICE raids have begun

[Donal]

Tough break for the gestapo and their bootlickers that this wasn't a Black guy. Harder for them to spin the "domestic terrorist" angle with a white suburban mom.


Maybe we'll detain you, maybe we'll kidnap you, maybe we'll assault you, maybe we'll kill you.

Yes, seems like very reasonable dice to roll.

You're doing great. Keep going.

Slimy little MAGAt Jesse Waters is broadcasting the fact that she was a lesbian with a daughter from a previous marriage. That's the "othering" to justify her murder.

 

[johnny karate]

So this is the standard of argument you want to go with? Quite the low bar. But very unsurprising.

In response to the absolutely terrible arguments you're making? No, it's not surprising at all.

 

[JayUtah]

There's the problems: Real officers, and training.

I agree. ICE agents prior to the Trump regime did not generally perform tactical operations and generally required no tactical training or experience. I'm told that unlike CBP, many ICE agents were not even armed. Pres. Trump has tried to turn them into his shock troops by arming them and assigning them roles more consistent with boots-on-the-ground law enforcement. Neither the veteran agents nor the new hires are properly trained. And now that Trump's policy lets them cosplay as some sort of elite paramilitary organization, they're simply dangerous.

That's already a talking point among right-wing blood-thirsters.

The notion that this is what you should expect if you challenge ICE is repugnant. Training and rules of engagement exist to protect everyone, including agents and bystanders, from such panicky responses. An agent's reckless behavior doesn't become irrelevant simply because of what someone else did or failed to do, or because the agent pretends to be associated with some noble endeavor.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

You're setting the bar for law enforcement lower than you are setting it for a civilian. Why is that? A few have asked you, but you seem to be avoiding it.

Quite contrary. It's possible for the ice officer to have acted out of protocol AND for the victim to have acted recklessly with bad decision-making. You and others are free to disagree, but if you're not going to show any nuance, and instead resort to ad hominems to make your point. Don't expect ME to waste my time entertaining the question.

 

[The_Animus]

So this is the standard of argument you want to go with? Quite the low bar. But very unsurprising.

You were given multiple arguments showing your take was terrible and you chose to double down. You shouldn't be surprised that we're sick of the blatant fascism and those who support it.

 

[turingtest]

Does the only apply to policemen?

Aren't civilians entitled to the same level of response if they feel they're in imminent danger of bodily harm?

If so this could lead to some amusing* interactions in future...



(*By 'amusing', I, of course mean horrific and indicative of a breakdown in society that will cause Putin to make happy little KGB squeaky noises. Funny that...)

No, no, you don't understand- "trained professionals" acting like vicious thugs and screaming at her to "get out of the ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ car!" and then yanking at her door handles is totally fine and authorized, it was up to her to de-escalate the situation.

 

[3point14]

Quite contrary. It's possible for the ice officer to have acted out of protocol AND for the victim to have acted recklessly with bad decision-making. You and others are free to disagree, but if you're not going to show any nuance, and instead resort to ad hominems to make your point. Don't expect ME to waste my time entertaining the question.

I'm curious if this is just a rapidly concocted defence of an untenable position or if you actually believe what you're saying. I lean towards the former but, of course, I can't read minds.

 

[Resume]

Sick of this ◊◊◊◊: He reached in and finished her off. It's plain as ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ day.

 

[W.D.Clinger]

Updating this:

The shooting is being investigated by the FBI and the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, working together.

If ICE were being run honestly and competently, ICE would also conduct an internal investigation, but few expect that to happen.

A court case could be federal or state. Few expect a federal case, because Attorney General Pam Bondi would probably interfere with any attempt to bring a federal case; even if such a case were successful, President Trump has already decided the outcome in his own mind and would probably pardon anyone convicted of a federal crime. The state of Minnesota could bring a case, but it's hard for a state to prosecute a criminal case against federal agents; it has been done, but such cases are rarely successful.

Within the past hour, it is being reported that the FBI has decided, unilaterally, that it will conduct the investigation entirely on its own, without cooperating with the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension or any other state or local authorities.

It is unusual for the FBI to refuse assistance or cooperation from state and local law enforcement. The FBI's decision invites speculation that a political decision has been made to convert the investigation into a cover-up.

 

[johnny karate]

Quite contrary. It's possible for the ice officer to have acted out of protocol AND for the victim to have acted recklessly with bad decision-making. You and others are free to disagree, but if you're not going to show any nuance, and instead resort to ad hominems to make your point. Don't expect ME to waste my time entertaining the question.

As threats go, Agree with my terrible arguments or I'll stop making my terrible arguments isn't the best one I've heard.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

I'm curious if this is just a rapidly concocted defence of an untenable position or if you actually believe what you're saying. I lean towards the former but, of course, I can't read minds.

The claim from their side is that she was repeatedly following them and obstructing their vehicular paths. Does it occur to anyone that if those claims are true that she was actively putting herself at risk by doing this? If the agent is proven to have engaged in gross negligence then the courts can handle that. But apparently the driver is not at fault for inserting herself into that situation to begin with??

These ice raids involve immigration law enforcement. There have been multiple incidents of protesters using any means necessary to obstruct these operations. I find it hard to believe a situation like this wasn't going to crop up.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

View attachment 67832

I'm waiting for the Onion headline: "◊◊◊◊ it, we can't top this. We'll just run the actual news."

AP is the new Onion.

 

[Darat]

The claim from their side is that she was repeatedly following them and obstructing their vehicular paths. Does it occur to anyone that if those claims are true that she was actively putting herself at risk by doing this? If the agent is proven to have engaged in gross negligence then the courts can handle that. But apparently the driven is not at fault for inserting herself into that situation to begin with.

Why does what she was doing earlier matter? We are talking about the moment she was killed by the ICE officer, at that moment was she doing anything that a reasonable person would consider carried a risk of fatality?

 

[Resume]

Updating this:

Within the past hour, it is being reported that the FBI has decided, unilaterally, that it will conduct the investigation entirely on its own, without cooperating with the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension or any other state or local authorities.

It is unusual for the FBI to refuse assistance or cooperation from state and local law enforcement. The FBI's decision invites speculation that a political decision has been made to convert the investigation into a cover-up.

Oooh, what a big effing surprise.

 

[JayUtah]

Quite contrary. It's possible for the ice officer to have acted out of protocol AND for the victim to have acted recklessly with bad decision-making.

And in that case, the responsibility for a shooting goes to the person who misused the gun.

 

[johnny karate]

The claim from their side is that she was repeatedly following them and obstructing their vehicular paths. Does it occur to anyone that if those claims are true that she was actively putting herself at risk by doing this? If the agent is proven to have engaged in gross negligence then the courts can handle that. But apparently the driver is not at fault for inserting herself into that situation to begin with??

These ice raids involve immigration law enforcement. There have been multiple incidents of protesters using any means necessary to obstruct these operations. I find it hard to believe a situation like this wasn't going to crop up.

ICE, DHS, and the Trump administration habitually lie about everything. Why would you believe what they tell you about the murder we can all plainly see occur? Why would you even give them the benefit of the doubt?

 

[JayUtah]

The claim from their side is that she was repeatedly following them and obstructing their vehicular paths. Does it occur to anyone that if those claims are true that she was actively putting herself at risk by doing this?

Irrelevant. Deadly force is not warranted even if that were true.

If the agent is proven to have engaged in gross negligence then the courts can handle that. But apparently the driver is not at fault for inserting herself into that situation to begin with??

Irrelevant. Even if the driver were at fault, deadly force is not approved by federal regulations governing the behavior of agents.

These ice raids involve immigration law enforcement. There have been multiple incidents of protesters using any means necessary to obstruct these operations. I find it hard to believe a situation like this wasn't going to crop up.

The right to protest government action is protected in several ways by the Constitution.

 

[Resume]

Remember the good ole days when the masked cowards would merely point their guns at protesters and say "Bang-bang, you're dead (liberal)?

Good times!

 

[JayUtah]

Updating this:

Within the past hour, it is being reported that the FBI has decided, unilaterally, that it will conduct the investigation entirely on its own, without cooperating with the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension or any other state or local authorities.

Not surprising in this case, but this doesn't mean the Minnesota authorities are forbidden from investigating and prosecuting state crimes.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

Why does what she was doing earlier matter? We are talking about the moment she was killed by the ICE officer, at that moment was she doing anything that a reasonable person would consider carried a risk of fatality?

It matters because you're treating the situation like it happened in a vacuum. Based on what I've seen on this story, it didn't. You're talking about a situation where federal immigration law is being acted on, and someone opposed to that activity stepping in and actively participating in impediments to that enforcement. Ita easy to point out that doing so carried the risk for the situation to get out of hand.

This does not justify her getting killed. Far from it. But neither does it absolve the fact that her decisions contributed to the outcome. I wont suggest that the ice agent involved in the shooting has no fault either, but It's still an all around tragedy no matter how you look at it.