Thoughts on how to really defeat terrorism- an essay from the heart

[egslim]

I don't see building a school or endowing scholarships in the same light that I see funding a dangerous psychopath's rise to power so that we can use him as a tool against another psychotic. Even if it is meddling, it's at least doing something good, not something bad.

Look harder.
If we build a Christian school in Iraq, we piss off the Moslems.
If we build a Islamic school in Iraq, we piss off the Christians.
If we build a non-religious school in Iraq, we piss off everyone.
No matter what we do, people will hate us for it and that'll stimulate terrorism to some degree.
Oh, and if we don't build a school we're neglecting the needs of the Iraqi's.
No matter what we do, people will hate us for it and that'll stimulate terrorism to some degree.

If it were possible to persuade every country on earth to crack down on terrorism, those people wouldn't have any safe harbor anymore and become largely ineffective. Persuasion isn't the same as war. In the overwhelming number of cases diplomacy, trading-treaties or the threat alone of war are enough.
This war will at least result in governments taking the potential threat of war serious.

 

[Victor Danilchenko]

jimmygun

Charles Manson used the same arguement in his defense. Society made me, bla bla bla. What a crock.

You are missing the point. This is not a defense of past atrocities, but a guideline for preventing future atrocities. manson's terrible childhood is no excuse for the murders, but it is a good reason to try to abolish child abuse!

Are you saying that everytime a mad man does something, instead of trying to make him stop we should blame ourselves for his actions?

No, what i am saying is that we should try to understand how he came to be (understanding does not equal forgiveness!), and then try to correct the problematic circumstances which possibly led to the said man's existence.

In some cases, there is nothing to correct; some people were indeed born psycho. In most, there were indeed some events or circumstances which precipitated the decline, and correcting those is what i am talking about.

Good gobbley gook if you happen to be the mad man.

Don't be a moron. I made a rather clear point -- do engage your brain in trying to understand what is actually being said.

Your philosophy simply will not work. It is not able to work as long as mankind's nature is what it is.

Ummm, how does mankind's nature negate the viability of the policy mandating that force should be used only for defensive purposes?

There will always be people out there that want what you have and are willing to murder to get it.

So? Who said anything about abdicating use of force? i advocate abdicating use of initiation of force, on internatinal level especially, because such uses can be shown to have produced much of the evil we now face.

This doesn't mean that we should excuse Osama, it means that we should try to relate to the world in such a way as to prevent future Osamas.

 

[Kashyapa]

It's becoming sadly obvious that these guys are just fanatics, desperately clinging to their way of thought and inflicting it on the rest of the world. I see no difference between Tony, jimmygun, and skeptic and Pat Robertson and Jack Chick besides their ideologies.

Guys, if you were willing to give an inch, or even open your minds at all to what Victor and Kiri and I am saying, this would be a productive debate. However, this is starting to feel like arguing wth a creationist, just different words. I'm tired of arguing with a bunch of hostile, irritating fanatics. We'll have to agree to disgree, or something. RandFan, DrBenway, and others have managed to disagree with some civility and respect, which you consistently fail to do.

This isn't a declaration of surrender, or an acknowledgement that you're right, or anything of the sort. This is becoming a mindless and unproductive argument, and we should know better.

Victor, thanks, bro, for putting in some good words. I appreciate it.

jimmygun

You are missing the point. This is not a defense of past atrocities, but a guideline for preventing future atrocities. manson's terrible childhood is no excuse for the murders, but it is a good reason to try to abolish child abuse!

No, what i am saying is that we should try to understand how he came to be (understanding does not equal forgiveness!), and then try to correct the problematic circumstances which possibly led to the said man's existence.

In some cases, there is nothing to correct; some people were indeed born psycho. In most, there were indeed some events or circumstances which precipitated the decline, and correcting those is what i am talking about.

Don't be a moron. I made a rather clear point -- do engage your brain in trying to understand what is actually being said.

Ummm, how does mankind's nature negate the viability of the policy mandating that force should be used only for defensive purposes?

So? Who said anything about abdicating use of force? i advocate abdicating use of initiation of force, on internatinal level especially, because such uses can be shown to have produced much of the evil we now face.

This doesn't mean that we should excuse Osama, it means that we should try to relate to the world in such a way as to prevent future Osamas.

 

[Tony]

It's becoming sadly obvious that these guys are just fanatics, desperately clinging to their way of thought and inflicting it on the rest of the world.

Look in a mirror lately? This is the perfect picture of what you and your childish ilk are.

Guys, if you were willing to give an inch, or even open your minds at all to what Victor and Kiri and I am saying, this would be a productive debate.

Of course, if YOU were willing to give an inch and open your mind, this might be a productive debate. You're the one holding on to dogma and idealism.

 

[Kashyapa]

Look back a little, cowboy. I've readily retracted statements, apologized for my errors, rectified mistakes. I've even gone back from my original position of total pacifism to a more reasoned retaliator position. You've been unwilling to give anything away, and you've been and continue to be hostile and unreasonable- just like a fanatic to any other dogma. This is not a dogma to me- it has been proven in multiple ways by some of the greatest political and spiritual minds of our planet (founding fathers, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Jesus, Buddha, and many others) as well as supported by the statistics of ecology and game theory. I've taken a long, hard look at all of this and accepted it as the most workable idea for our species and planet.

I no longer wish to converse with you, Tony, jimmygun, and sceptic. RandFan, DrBenway, and the others who are capable of having a reasoned conversation have been so much more rewarding and thought-provoking to discuss this with than you. And, frankly, I find you to have a piss-poor attitude and a toxic personality and argument style, but that's personal. In any case, I will only be replying to remarks from those of either side who can conduct themselves as civil, respectful adults in a forum of ideas. Read RandFan's exemplary post if you don't understand what I mean. Good day. I wouldn't bother replying, as you won't get a reply back.

Look in a mirror lately? This is the perfect picture of what you and your childish ilk are.

Guys, if you were willing to give an inch, or even open your minds at all to what Victor and Kiri and I am saying, this would be a productive debate.

Of course, if YOU were willing to give an inch and open your mind, this might be a productive debate. You're the one holding on to dogma and idealism.

 

[Tony]

Look back a little, cowboy.

Nice job, bigot. I guess everyone from Texas in your narrow mind is a cowboy.

I no longer wish to converse with you, Tony, jimmygun, and sceptic.

Thats fine, I no longer wish to talk to a pussy like yourself. See you in hell fag.

 

[Kashyapa]

Ah, Tony's true colors shine gloriously though in his last sentences. Should have known that "fag" would come into it sometime. And he wonders why I no longer want to play his little game, and why I respect neither him nor his opinions. Ooo, and pussy, too. And I'll see him in hell. How nice. And he has the temerity, the sheer audacity, to call me a bigot.

I actually didn't know you were from Texas, Tony, until you mentioned it...and it looks like you mention it in your profile too. Honestly, I had no idea where you were from. Cowboy referred to your attitude- but it's truly ironic and delicious that you're from Texas too. Thanks for the belly laugh.

Let that be the note we end our discussion on. I truly have nothing further to say to you or about you.

Nice job, bigot. I guess everyone from Texas in your narrow mind is a cowboy.

I no longer wish to converse with you, Tony, jimmygun, and sceptic.

Thats fine, I no longer wish to talk to a pussy like yourself. See you in hell fag.

 

[Tony]

Ah, Tony's true colors shine gloriously though in his last sentences. Should have known that "fag" would come into it sometime. And he wonders why I no longer want to play his little game, and why I respect neither him nor his opinions. Ooo, and pussy, too. And I'll see him in hell. How nice. And he has the temerity, the sheer audacity, to call me a bigot.

I actually didn't know you were from Texas, Tony, until you mentioned it...and it looks like you mention it in your profile too. Honestly, I had no idea where you were from. Cowboy referred to your attitude- but it's truly ironic and delicious that you're from Texas too. Thanks for the belly laugh.

I thought you no longer wished to talk to me?

 

[egslim]

Ah, Tony's true colors shine gloriously though in his last sentences. Should have known that "fag" would come into it sometime. And he wonders why I no longer want to play his little game, and why I respect neither him nor his opinions. Ooo, and pussy, too. And I'll see him in hell. How nice. And he has the temerity, the sheer audacity, to call me a bigot.

I actually didn't know you were from Texas, Tony, until you mentioned it...and it looks like you mention it in your profile too. Honestly, I had no idea where you were from. Cowboy referred to your attitude- but it's truly ironic and delicious that you're from Texas too. Thanks for the belly laugh.

Let that be the note we end our discussion on. I truly have nothing further to say to you or about you.

You yourself are a very good example of why world peace is impossible to attain your way. First, your skin isn't thick enough. To achieve world peace you should be able to shrug off every attack without doing anything that could even remotely be considered provocation.
Second, you give up way too easily. We've been at this for a couple of days and a few pages of posts. Yet you already want to give up. If you give up that fast in the face of a little opposition (no death threats, for example), how can you ever hope to achieve world peace?
You are full of hot air, claiming to know what's best for everyone, but already failing miserably on a small forum like this.

 

[Kashyapa]

I have made it abundantly clear that I would be willing to continue the discussion with reasonable debaters. Somebody who resorts to calling me a "pussy fag" is not somebody interested in an exchange of ideas or an intellectual discussion of politics. I have long made it a policy to refrain from talking evolution with creationists, and I cut off conversations with them as soon as possible. Not because I lack conviction in my evolutionist position or will to fight for them. Rather, any conversation with one of them is totally futile because they're fanatics who will never admit any lapse in logic or false information in their quest to be right; they're not interested in dialogue or debate, they're interested in slugging it out for Jesus. Different ideology, but Tony and his buddies are exactly the same. No flexibility, not particularly intellectual and rude and abrasive. Discussing this matter with them was entirely futile. And, as I mentioned, I will gladly take arguments and criticism from those posters who are 1) not fanatics, 2) express themselves respectfully and politely, and 3) can engage in a discussion rather than an argument. Originality and thoughtful delivery a plus. So bring it on- but be adults and intellectuals about it.

 

[Kashyapa]

An interesting document for your perusal: the articles of impeachment drawn up against Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Ashcroft by Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney General.
http://www.votetoimpeach.org/articles_rc.htm

 

[Skeptical Greg]

From page one...

This will be my last post. My only real objective in this thread was to vent, and I got to do that. I'm sick of arguing. I just want something better for the world- call me a naive idealist- and I think we should be actively working towards that rather than perpetuating the angst. But whatever. I'm tired of arguing politics and philosophy. The best possible wishes to you all. Live, love and be happy

And here we are, one week and two pages later....

P.S.
Just how long did you watch that squirrel suffer, before you put it out of it's misery? Or did you?

Have you learned anything, since then, about finishing a task once you have started it?

 

[Kashyapa]

Yep. I've learned that if it's not a worthy task, it shouldn't be undertaken at all.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Yep. I've learned that if it's not a worthy task, it shouldn't be undertaken at all.

And the squirrel?

 

[Kashyapa]

Lasted only a few seconds. 10 or 15 at the most.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Kashyapa, is an interesting moniker you have chosen.

You don't strike me as someone who would be mocking a Buddhist deity. But I would also find it curious that you might envision yourself as one.

 

[BobK]

I'd still like to know what you did with the pellet gun.

 

[Kashyapa]

Kashyapa was the monk who, when the Buddha wordlessly held up a lotus flower instead of teaching verbally, was the only one who got it. He attained enlightenment as he saw the flower, and smiled. The story is meaningful on a number of levels; it's my Zen koan, the paradoxical and mysterious story whose contemplation drives meditation. He was the first one, too, to understand that the truth is everywhere and in everything, not in scriptures or holy men, but that everything contains truth and falsehood. He percieved that the lotus flower contained all the truth he would ever need; that truth lay not in one dogma but that the entirety of the universe was truth, dharma. I can only imagine what he saw in that lotus; when I can see it and understand it, that will be my enlightenment. I view him- whether or not he was a historical person- as my teacher and guide; I name myself after him on these boards as a homage, not out of arrogance. He saw the universal truth as just that; universal, without boundaries or borders.

As for the pellet gun: it gathered dust in the garage for a number of years. For all I know it might still be there. I used it every once in a while, to zing some cans, but never without the bitter memory.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Kashyapa was the monk who, when the Buddha wordlessly held up a lotus flower instead of teaching verbally, was the only one who got it. He attained enlightenment as he saw the flower, and smiled. The story is meaningful on a number of levels; it's my Zen koan, the paradoxical and mysterious story whose contemplation drives meditation. He was the first one, too, to understand that the truth is everywhere and in everything, not in scriptures or holy men, but that everything contains truth and falsehood. He percieved that the lotus flower contained all the truth he would ever need; that truth lay not in one dogma but that the entirety of the universe was truth, dharma. I can only imagine what he saw in that lotus; when I can see it and understand it, that will be my enlightenment. I view him- whether or not he was a historical person- as my teacher and guide; I name myself after him on these boards as a homage, not out of arrogance. He saw the universal truth as just that; universal, without boundaries or borders.

Guess I learned about a different Kashyapa.. Thanks for taking the time to explain yours.

The name I have chosen alludes to the search for truth also, but I'm sort of a " can't tell you what it is, but I'll know it when I see it ", kind of seeker.. The lotus doesn't do it for me..

 

[Kashyapa]

Well, actually, the lotus is sort of a metaphor. Who knows what your lotus or mine might end up being. As you say, you'll know it when you see it. The lotus did it for Kashyapa. There's a very amusing Zen story about a master who became enlightened when taking his morning dump. I don't think it's anything but a parable, but I actually wouldn't rule anything out.

Good luck in your search.

Guess I learned about a different Kashyapa.. Thanks for taking the time to explain yours.

The name I have chosen alludes to the search for truth also, but I'm sort of a " can't tell you what it is, but I'll know it when I see it ", kind of seeker.. The lotus doesn't do it for me..