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Thoughts on how to really defeat terrorism- an essay from the heart

  • Thread starter Thread starter Kashyapa
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Victor Danilchenko said:
We should be retaliators; but the key to being a retaliator is not initiating aggression.
What happens if we introduce a new strategy in addition to the dove, hawk, and retaliator strategies: the strategy of the suicidal killer.

The suicidal killer negates the advantage of the retaliator, unless the retaliator can target the place which generates the suicidal killers before they act. But then the retaliator isn't a retaliator. He's a pre-emptive striker.
 
Hmm..... ◊◊◊◊. Good question, and I haven't the foggiest how to answer that. I don't think that's a long term adaptive strategy, though. Victory is a little meaningless if you're not around to enjoy it, but that hasn't stopped Hamas. It's also not usually independent- suicide killers in the real world are almost always naive tools of a hawkish ruling system. I would still think it's possible to retaliate against them, even if you take damage from a suicide killer. I've noticed that not a single Hamas leader has volunteered for the martyrdom operations. It would seem to be a sort of sub-strategy of Hawk, rather than an independent one.

This is getting good! A nice, intellectual debate, just what I was shooting for. Keep the ideas coming, and thanks. Also, by the way, I've been reminded of an interesting book called "Forever Peace" by Joe Haldeman. It's a little fluffy, but it deals with the dawn of a new world of peace, and the conspiracy that brings it about. Quite interesting, and raises some moral points. It's a Sci-Fi, set in the future, and while not overwhelming is good.
 
DrBenway

What happens if we introduce a new strategy in addition to the dove, hawk, and retaliator strategies: the strategy of the suicidal killer.
there is actually another one Dawkins described, which I didn't mention -- bully; one who acts as a hawk to doves, and as a dove to hawks. However, it's a very unstable strategy in a society where there are anything but doves and hawks, as both other bullies and retaliators screw the bully's action strategy up.

The suicidal killer negates the advantage of the retaliator, unless the retaliator can target the place which generates the suicidal killers before they act. But then the retaliator isn't a retaliator. He's a pre-emptive striker.
true, at its core; but converting retaliators to pre-emptive strikers will also negate the advantage of the retaliator society.

Now note that suicidal killers are usually individuals rather than nations; and it was mostly about nations that I was speaking about -- or at least nation-grade organizations. Groups like Al Qaeda do throw a wrench in the equation, you are right; but Iraq certainly doesn't.
 
1. Right. But cooperation is a better way to get what you want. There's a process called reciprocal altruism that holds true in this case. You give something to someone else, that person reciprocates (maybe not immediately, or maybe indirectly), everyone comes out even.
If you are strong enough to just take what you want - all - then that's much faster, easier and it pays off better. Even hawks don't attack unless they feel they can win. So they'll wait, therefor a retalliator will per definition fight in a suboptimal situation.

My prediction is that if you could make every country a retalliator, more and more countries would turn and become aggressors, simply waiting for the right moment. Meanwhile they would provoke a little, but not attack. When they feel the circumstances are right you would have a world war at your hands. It is *somewhat* comparable to the situation which led to WWI.

2. The squirrel was a good competitor. It's hard for a species to foresee the possibility of a chunk of lead flying out from left field and hitting it.
Humans have been killing animals for a long time, only the methods have changed. By now those animals should know to stay out of our way, or run the risk.

3. Your thought that people would stop appreciating peace was interesting. I think it would be analogous to child labor in the US- your average ten year old doesn't thank God every day that he doesn't have to work in a coal mine.
The difference being that child labor still exists in other countries, and we are reminded of that by television. You only started to appreciate life after you saw the squirrel die. If they never see any war images and only read about them in boring history books, people will stop appreciating peace. History is boring to most people, and just something to forget.
Also remember that war has a certain glorious, honorable and adventurous component.
And war between nations by it's definition can't be controlled by law.

4. People recognized Hitler as a bad guy pretty early on.
This is not generally true. Many Europeans during the '30's were somewhat antisemitistic and agreed to some extent with Hitlers jew-policy. This was before the concentration camps.
In Britain after München, practically the whole nation strongly supported Chamberlain when he declared "peace in our time" Churchill was one of the very few exceptions.
During the war, the dutch Minister-President de Greer actually defected to German occupied Holland.
Both Belgium and Holland played the Neutral card, expecting that would stop Hitler from invading.
In France, antisemitism was pretty strong as well. The Dreyfuss affaire showed that.
Many people admired Hitler because he managed to turn the German economy around, creating Autobahns and a car for every family. Remember that this was during the crisis.

It'd be hard to do anything with somebody until they did something
That's the big problem, especially because they won't do anything untill they feel the time is right. With the rest of the world not having many weapons, it would only take a few aggressive countries to build armed forces. Since a pre-emptive strike is out of the question, you'd just be waiting untill the aggressors feel they are strong enough.
Ask any military analist and they'll tell you fighting a war on someone else's terms is a very bad idea.

You've raised some good points. I think they can be adjusted for, if peace is really a priority in the world.
If human kind were to evolve the way you would like, aggressors would also evolve to adapt to this new situation. Since perfection doesn't exists, stopping every aggressor every time would be impossible.
And remember that for many people peace just isn't an important goal. In China for example, human life is worth much less.
 
Now note that suicidal killers are usually individuals rather than nations; and it was mostly about nations that I was speaking about -- or at least nation-grade organizations. Groups like Al Qaeda do throw a wrench in the equation, you are right; but Iraq certainly doesn't.
However this thread is about attaining peace on Earth, and nations do have to deal with individuals and terrorists.
Darwins model breaks down in another way as well, not all birds are the same size. Almost nobody will start a fight if he/she doesn't feel it is is possible to win.
 
Perhaps, but the hawk strategy is not sustainable. Eventually, you're going to run into another hawk, and sustain damage. It's not in a nation's best interest to be an aggressor, because sooner or later it's going to be smacked down. Retaliator has been proven, statistically, to be the most stable and sustainable strategy- this is not opinion, it's simple statistics. Try it out for yourself:
http://www.spectacle.org/995/ethic.html

Basically, a tit-for-tat (retaliator) strategy is best. I'll assume that you're not going to screw me; but if you do screw me, I'll screw you. This stable strategy precludes preemption and aggression, but does not preclude defense. As long as everyone cooperates, life is good; as soon as someone steps out of line, they get smacked.

It's not this clean-cut in the real world, obviously, since the birds are of different sizes and degrees of power. I believe that it still stands that cooperation and peace as the baseline state is the most sustainable- because history has been shown, time and time again, that expansionistic and aggressive states eventually degrade and dissolve. The British empire, the Roman empire, the Spanish empire- all states with expansionist agendas who invaded and manipulated the affairs of other states, and eventually were destroyed. Even a powerful hawk eventually takes such a toll in the process of destroying the others that eventually the other, smaller hawks finish it off. Again, if every state follows the tit-for-tat strategy, an equilibrium of cooperation eventually occurs. If nobody attacks anybody, but with the ready threat against a cheater, there may be a few wars, but justifiable ones that are infrequent. Switzerland has long been neutral but ready to defend itself- and see how well it's survived and prospered. Imagine that on an international scale. The nations that are still cooperating with each other can team up to neutralize the threat. Eventually, aggressors (and the assosciated memes) are simply outcompeted and become extinct.

Conclusion- between multiple players, a strategy of cooperative tit-for-tat is the most sustainable. This means that the players respond as one to an attack against one, and do not attack unless attacked.
 
Another thing to think about is how to reduce the chances that you'll be taken advantage of. Cooperation, again, is the key, and this is where we have gone wrong. Instead of defending ourselves on a reactive basis, we have undergone manipulations and all manner of Machiavellian attempts to get the world to cooperate with us by subversion. This has naturally incited much resentment and a desire to retaliate- precisely in line with game theory. Hitler would not have found fertile ground to sprout if we had not brutally ran Germany into the ground after WWI; when we rehabilitated Europe with the Marshall Plan, the country became one of the most respected and advanced countries on Earth. A pure spirit of cooperation, egalitarianism, and goodwill will prevent the likelihood of national leaders bent on aggression finding populations receptive to aggression. The only reason China went communist was because of Western manipulation in the Opium Wars, which destabilized China and paved the way for corrupt rulers who bled China dry, which the precipitated the rise to power of the Maoists. Cooperation and egalitarianism would have prevented all of it.
A forum for the resolving of greivances (perhaps a very empowered UN) would be necessary to legislate disputes, of course, and a mechanism for enforcing the rules would also be necessary, perhaps in the form of a unified UN military command. A world organization much like the European Union could oversee things, too. Power would not be centralized or tilted in any nation's favor. Ultimately, if this strategy were taken to its full conclusion, individual countries would become more like states in the US, and there would really be only one dominant government. If you can't beat them, join them.
This will horrify the nationalists out there, but I truly think that this is the way to do it. This in no way advocates the destruction of cultures- anything but; following the doctrine of cooperation and mutual respect would ensure that each would in fact be strengthened and bettered. Italy is still Italy, France is still France in the EU- they just cooperate better than ever before, and despite the bumps that the EU has gone through, it is a generally workable plan.
And I think it's possible, too. We could do it, if we put enough effort into it. If we put the same effort into unifying and practicing tit-for-tat as we do making war, it could be done in a century or less. The mistakes of the past have to be rectified, and pride has to be put on the back burner. It would require governments to put a lot on the line. But it's being done in the EU. It could be done everywhere. The US would accept a voluntary reduction in power- but so what? We're doing a ◊◊◊◊-awful job in charge now.
And if we don't do it, we're looking at nothing less than the collapse of our civilization, economy, and everything we hold dear.
 
Kashyapa...
And you have the lunacy, the raving mad dog irrational double think insanity to tell me that this is the best way to go about things?"

You claim that I attacked you for daring to disagee with you. You opened this topic did you not? I replied to you did I not?

I am a skeptic and I don't believe you are all the wonderful things you say you are, simply on your word. Just look at the quote I mentioned to see if you even sound like a Buddhist.

But even if you are completely truthful I still think you are naive and immature. There may be millions of you out there that share your beliefs but that leaves the other 6+ billion of us here that do not. You can and do hide your head in the sand (or other places) and try to ignore what is really happening in the world. You can plead victimhood, sainthood, whatever hood you wish but the real world will continue to operate as it has always done. There is no peace without strength.

If some get emotional about your and your childlike opinions it is because we realize the sacrifices that have to be made to insure your right to criticise, to bury your head, to stay in a dream world. You remind me of BigFig who says she is not going to vaccinate her children because there are no diseases out there.

I remember the Buddhist monks that burned themselves to death to protest the regime in South Vietnam. They felt the horrible death of a human being was worth the cause. That it was their own death does not make it any less horrible. With the same conviction, other young men have offered their lives as ransom for our freedom and way of life. I never for a minute forget their sacrifice. I never for a minute try to trivialize it by saying it was unnecessary.

I have a son old enough to fight. That he was lucky enough to live in Canada means he does not have to go, but he must remain ever aware that men his age and younger in the States did go.

You say I pre-judge you? You seem to do the same for me. You know nothing about me other than I disagree with you, yet you spend paragraphs telling me what I am like and how I think. I know exactly what I am and don't need to parade it here to bolster my opinion.

I asked if your eyes were brown. You said no. I assumed you are full of s--t, I am corrected, you are down a quart.
 
It's not in a nation's best interest to be an aggressor, because sooner or later it's going to be smacked down.Retaliator has been proven, statistically, to be the most stable and sustainable strategy- this is not opinion, it's simple statistics.

As was pointed out earlier, these statistics ignore suicide bombers and terrorists. They are therefore not reliable and furthermore, proven false by the existance of many aggressors everywhere.

As long as everyone cooperates, life is good; as soon as someone steps out of line, they get smacked.
What happens if there are a number of entities who work together and do preparations to step out of line? Something similar like the Central Powers in WWI and the Axis in WWII.

I believe that it still stands that cooperation and peace as the baseline state is the most sustainable- because history has been shown, time and time again, that expansionistic and aggressive states eventually degrade and dissolve.
History has also shown that policies which rely on neutrality - effectively being a retalliator - usually aren't sustainable, unless their independance offers something to the aggressor. An example was the US before WWI and WWII. After practically running your experiment it was plain that the idea just didn't work. Like Marxism, nice in theory, but worthless in practice.

The British empire, the Roman empire, the Spanish empire- all states with expansionist agendas who invaded and manipulated the affairs of other states, and eventually were destroyed.
Belgium was conquered in both WWI and WWII, Holland in WWII, even though their neutrality policy made them retalliators. Same was for Norway and Denmark.

Even a powerful hawk eventually takes such a toll in the process of destroying the others that eventually the other, smaller hawks finish it off.
Sure, but in the meantime he has much offspring, of whom some will become large hawks themselves and pass on their genes further. It should be clear to you that survival of the individual is irrelevant in evolution, what matters is the offspring.

Again, if every state follows the tit-for-tat strategy, an equilibrium of cooperation eventually occurs. If nobody attacks anybody, but with the ready threat against a cheater, there may be a few wars, but justifiable ones that are infrequent.
No, aggressors will arise and work together and prepare for a war they think they can win. There will be a WW size conflict and with modern weapons that would cause much more destruction than any small-scale conflict ever would.

Switzerland has long been neutral but ready to defend itself- and see how well it's survived and prospered.
Switzerland is an example of a country that is worth much more to an aggressor when it is neutral. It's banking and political connections are worth more to an aggressor than a few square miles of mountains, which are also easy to defend.
Holland tried the same tactic in WWI, but not having those advantages and being of much more strategic importance it didn't work.

Hitler would not have found fertile ground to sprout if we had not brutally ran Germany into the ground after WWI; when we rehabilitated Europe with the Marshall Plan, the country became one of the most respected and advanced countries on Earth.
You ignore the crash of '29, Hitler only gained traction when the crises started. A similar event did not happen after WWII and Hitler did poorly before '29.

The only reason China went communist was because of Western manipulation in the Opium Wars, which destabilized China and paved the way for corrupt rulers who bled China dry, which the precipitated the rise to power of the Maoists.
Right and wrong at the same time. Without any foreign intervention both China and Japan would still be ruled by an Emperor and Shogun respectively. Technologically and scientifically they would be some 500 years backwards.
Without competition from other countries there is no reason to do anything about corruption, anyway.

It was the constant competition and subsequent wars that brought the small European countries their economical, scientifical and political superiority, which explains why they were able to conquer most of the world.
It can be argued that the loss of life in these wars was more than made up for by the lives saved because the advances in medicine, made possible by the same competition that resulted in those wars.

A forum for the resolving of greivances (perhaps a very empowered UN) would be necessary to legislate disputes, of course, and a mechanism for enforcing the rules would also be necessary, perhaps in the form of a unified UN military command.
In any system you, or anyone can think of, other people will find weaknesses they can exploit.

A world organization much like the European Union could oversee things, too.
One thing learned from the EU is that every participating country tries to manipulate it for it's own good, very much neglecting the other members.

This will horrify the nationalists out there, but I truly think that this is the way to do it.
Risking the safety and stability of almost every country on earth - except those who already are a mess - and risking the advance of scientific/medical progress all for something that has very little gains for many people, why would anyone be horrified?
So far, you have done a quite poor job of showing that a peaceful world would be in equilibrium, never mind showing a possible way to accomplish this state.

This in no way advocates the destruction of cultures- anything but; following the doctrine of cooperation and mutual respect would ensure that each would in fact be strengthened and bettered. Italy is still Italy, France is still France in the EU- they just cooperate better than ever before, and despite the bumps that the EU has gone through, it is a generally workable plan.
This is where you are very naïve. After 50 years we have a single currency and some common legal and economical systems.
When it comes to taxes, anything judicial and most of the government all countries are still independent.
This extremely slow speed is despite the fact that all European countries have very similar cultures, we have a common history. It is obvious that larger cultural differences would slow the process down further. There are much larger differences between Europe and the US, nerver mind African and Aziatic countries.

And I think it's possible, too. We could do it, if we put enough effort into it.
You think it's possible? I would suggest slightly more evidence is needed before we want to start running a world wide experiment. So far you've only shown a simple model, that breaks down when just a little more realism is added.
Besides, what you are proposing is much more of a hassle than world peace is worth to most people. You're making the mistake of thinking that peace is an end-goal, which it isn't. Peace is just one of many tools to accomplish the end-goal, which has always been passing on our genes.

And if we don't do it, we're looking at nothing less than the collapse of our civilization, economy, and everything we hold dear.
Nonsense. Though many great empires have fallen in history, the offspring from their people is still alive. The Roman Empire has been long gone, but their culture is part of the foundation of current western civilization. Their people spread across Europe at the expense of the locals, and those peoples' genes still exist across Europe.
The evolutionary succes of a species is independent of the individuals' survival. In case of nations, most people usually stay alive even if their country is conquered, but their genes are mixed with those of the conquerors. Even if the conquering nation is eventually destroyed, their genes are still planted in other countries and in their own country the people survive.
You could argue that the loss of life accompanying war counters this effect, but most victims are usually men and they are not the limiting factor for reproduction.
 
Peace will beget peace. Good intentions will beget good intentions.

Thanks for sharing Kashyapa. But I must differ as well. Like you said in your article, we are all animals. The squirrel's life, at one point in our history, was not much different than ours.

We had no guns or bombs, but never the less, we have them now.

Even in our pastoral days, strife made us what we are. Competition for resources, breeding, space, it all folds into the human psyche.

I am not saying that killing innocents is the best or is unavoidable. It is a sad, sad side-effect of human nature. There is a peace somewhere in our lives. Sometimes we must fight for it. Some would hold children like Ali hostage to force thier peace.

The cold reality is that, when it comes down to it, you are typing on a computer about memories of a relatively stable upbringing where you wer given the freedom to explore your world a little bit.

Your reality came from strife. You wander on the graves of countless dead. Are you goign to be worthy of their deaths? What does it mean to be worthy of their deaths? To live on? To reproduce? To make damn sure that your children do not suffer the fate of Ali?
 
I do not argue peace without strength. I argue that peace can be maintained without strength, and without wantonly interfering in other nations affairs and starting messy wars without evidence. What is really happening in the world is steady decline into anarchy. War is not working, and I don't think it's childlike to think that a species capable of all we're capable of is not able to maintain a steady peace for longer than a decade or so. The world hates us because we can't keep our money-grubbing hands to ourselves. Think we're not? We are. We're viewed around the world as greedy, interfering, crude swine. I think we're better than that, and I reject a status quo that requires that I simply shrug my shoulders and accept more of something that will never solve our problems!

Why must young men and monks die for freedom? If we actively promoted and respected it, all over the world and for everyone, that would be a whole hell of a lot less necessary. Yeah, it might be necessary sometimes. The kids dying in Iraq now aren't dying to protect freedom, they're dying to clean up our old foreign policy messes, and incidentally to start a few new ones. War and killing is being used as the first tool of statecraft these days, not the last possible resort. If they were dying to protect my way of life, as they did in WWII, you're damn right I'd be behind the war all the way. If they were putting down a madman slaughtering an entire ethnic group, like Kosovo, I'd be behind them. We're sending kids to die now for profit, for the interests of the pro-Israel lobby and the corporations. I don't think that war will ever become completely obsolete, but I sure think that we can reduce the conditions that lead to it. Just look at the constitution, the bill of rights, the writings and doctrines of the founding fathers- they disagree with nothing of what I'm saying!

Game theory has proven that a cooperation-based, tit-for-tat strategy is the only one that results in high scores for all the players. Everyone ends up coming out mostly even, and conflict is low. Why is that impossible to realize, if not all over the world, at least in our own foreign policy? I admit that speculations that it could be implemented all over the world are probably a bit unrealistic (although it could be done if enough people got fed up with it enough). Even playing against a hawk, this strategy works amazingly well. I'll get a link later today to a simulator; play it for yourselves and see what you think. I'll concede that these stats don't factor in terrorism, but if we had been acting in accordance with our constitution and the basic standards of conduct and morality, that wouldn't be an issue. You don't kill yourself to fight a country that is even-handed, fair, and egalitarian.

I concede that war will never die out. But right now, as the world stands, we're not doing anything even to reduce it. Defense of peace, security, human rights is necessary; the perpetuation of continual war is not. The West has been waging a war of cultural domination, exploitation, and subjugation for the past 700 years. Rome did it before them, the Mongols before them. We know what happened to the Romans and the Mongols- they eventually fell, because their survival strategy was not stable. So will we, as ours matches theirs, if we don't change it. If occasionally we have to stop some egregious monster, so be it. But we need, absolutely need, to encourage cooperation. I can accept a bit of strife- as c0rbin points out, it may be necessary on some level. But we must take the steps that we are not taking now to reduce it to the lowest possible level. Cooperation, compassion, and altruism is also part of our psyche as social beings, and those are the tendencies we need to emphasize now. Just like rape, cheating, dishonesty, stealing are traits that most of us suppress, we need to suppress our appetite for war and imposing our will on out-groups by force. We can get what we need without grinding our heels into the others to do it. There's enough land and resources on Earth for everyone on it if we take only what we need.

Your comments have made me realize that a lasting, universal peace is probably not possible. My "EU" idea is indeed full of ◊◊◊◊. Everyone will indeed fight for their own best interest above all else. But I think that the United States, with its amazingly strong constitution and egalitarian values, needs to live up to its potential. Total peace may be impossible, but total war is not sustainable. You get into the world what you put into it. War may be a solution to some problems- but I feel that that much of the world lacks the foresight to realize that it is not the solution to all problems, and it is not the first option that should be pursued. (Bush had no intention of letting diplomacy work with Iraq- a month after election, he was overheard saying "F--k Saddam. We're taking him out.", to three senators. War all the way.) If we can't create total peace, we can at least reduce our compulsive and meaningless exertion of power, and stop fighting useless and ill-advised wars like Vietnam and the Gulf Wars. We need to find the balance between my pie-in-the-sky peacenik crap and Bush's kiss-our-ass-or-we-shoot cowboy aggression. How do we do that? Start heeding the words of our Constitution in letter and in spirit.
 
Jimygun-
"Pull your head out of your rectum and look around." From your very first post. "Did you lock your door before you went out to throw rocks at your dog? Didja punk?" From your second post.

These are not the words of intellectual disagreement. These are not the words of someone willing to have an open discussion of ethics and values. These are the words of someone furious that someone holds a point of view different from theirs. You have contributed little besides insults to this thread. There are others who disagree with me who have expressed their views with a modicum of good taste, civility, and without using the word "rectum" anywhere.

You say you're a skeptic and don't believe me. That's not skepticism, it's distrust without much to back it up. Given that my entire argument rests on Buddhist ethics, and I'm fighting this tenaciously for it, I think it might follow that I'm a Buddhist who cares about what he does. Besides, your approach never denoted any sort of intellectual skepticism at all- you insulted and slandered me for no particular reason other than that I disagreed with you. If you want to be skeptical, probe my ideas like DrBenway, for example, did.

Incidentally, your mention of the Buddhist monks was not correct. They killed themselves to protest the fact that the war was being fought, period, not taking sides. I personally don't see what good it did, either.

I apologize for calling your position insane. I admitted freely in the last post that some war, and true defense of the peace, is necessary. However, you seem to reject the idea that the US should reach out in trust and peace as the general principle of foreign affairs, and only use war as the last possible resort. Never mind my Buddhist ethics, that's what the Constitution, which gives all of those rights and freedoms that we're willing do battle and die for, dictates. I think it's hypocritical to enjoy those freedoms while we trash the rest of it in the name of more power or more oil or more democracy or whatever the hell it is we're fighting for. I don't think you'll disagree too much with that.
 
Just one observation:

Without high ideals to inspire us, there's little reason to change anything.
 
Sometimes, you could wish...

Let me put this discussion in a slightly different light:

Not long after we moved into our home in North Highlands, CA, (which is one of the rattier suburbs of Sacramento), my wife and sons were in our home office dinking around with our shabby little 486 computer which my older son, Jon, managed to put together with some help with his aunt. (If memory serves, they were playing MYST, and still working around the planetarium.) I was in another part of the house, trying to figure out why our damn toilets weren't flushing or something like that, when our rather hefty puppy, Rosie, started going berzerk.

About the same time, my younger son, Matt, heard someone yelp, "Oh, sh**! They have a DOG!" followed by several people running off and jumping into a car.

In other words, we were about to be targeted for a home invasion robbery.

Now, our puppy is about 90 lbs., and she's protected us from any number of thugs here in NH. Where Rosie is of no help, I have my "Thumper," which is an old axe handle. (I use it as a "persuader" when someone gets lippy and decides they want to threaten me or my wife and kids. I usually only need to bring it out and people shut up and leave. I've rarely, if ever, had to apply it to the side of someone's head.) I'm thinking about picking up a 9mm, since they're talking about cutbacks in the County Sheriff's office.

It's a funny thing: most of the thugs in this neighborhood drive nicer cars than me. They know I've been off on disability for a while because of an industrial accident, and that my right arm is still not quite up to snuff. Many of these characters, I'm learning, have pretty good jobs. In other words, it's not as if they need to try to steal from my family in order to feed theirs. They are simply looking for a thrill or something. They're trying to steal from folks in this neighborhood simply because they can.

One neighbor put a stop to the theft in his property: when the thugs tried to break into his home, he whipped out a .45, and put a shot into the wall right where they were trying to enter. End of discussion: self-preservation was the rule, even for creeps like that. They've been gone for some time, hopefully, for good.

I'd like to think that we could really build first rate hospitals, schools, libraries, and what have you, around the world, and people would use them, and that would in turn bring an end to war. I really believe we should do that, simply because it's the right thing to do, and that has a beneficial effect for everyone around the world.

Unfortunately, we're learning, now that Hussein is out of power, that he simply sold the food we were providing for the Iraqi people, the food he purchased with his "Oil for food and medicines" money from the oil he was selling. With that, he went out and bought AK-47s, AKMs, AK-74s, T-72s, and MIGs. Either that, or he warehoused it. He didn't need to be a knuckle dragger; he chose to be one.

That's the sad reality. There are simply people out there, (and we can play all kinds of games with this one), who, regardless of the why, decide they would rather be ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊. I don't care why they're ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊, I just don't want them coming to my home and trying to take the little bit I own, or infinitely worse, threatening those people I love. And, if what it takes to prevent that is the firm application of Thumper to the side of someone's skull with terminal force, so be it. I value my wife and sons far more than I do peace.

As to the squirrel: I had a friend who did something like that to a sparrow. His father made him eat that bird. He learned the same lesson you did, without the illusions.
 
You're not disagreeing with me. I've repeatedly said that occasionally violence is necessary. If I had been starving and needed to eat the squirrel, it would have been justified. It was a moral wrong to
But you don't go out and find all the people who might have stolen in the past, or look like they might threaten you and your family, and get to thumping, now do you? Because that's a crime. You reserve the right to pop them if they threaten you, but you don't go out like a vigilante and bash punk heads because they might do it sometime, or sell a gun to other thieves who might come after you. Because, let's face it, not only is it against the law, you're fundamentally a pretty good person, and if you're going to hurt someone, there better be a damn pressing reason.
 
Kashyapa...my words are my words. I firmly believe you and others like you do have your head buried in the sand or up your ass. You are out of touch with the real world but such is your right to espouse your point of view.

If you re-read my post I said I am a skeptic and therefore do not take what you say about yourself on your say so alone. That is healthy skepticism. Any one can write anything they want about themselves here. I myself have been to Jupiter. Do you take that on face value?

You say it is mistrust without anything to back it up. You made the statements, you back them up or do not expect me to believe such outrageous claims.

It is my understanding that the monks that set fire to themselves in Vietnam were protesting the corruption of the South Vietnamese government and their policy to Christianize. I will look up that part of history that I have not visited for many years to check it out.

Do you not see that the terrorists of the world are a threat to the US? When Ossama vows the distruction of the US economy, its society, its people and its resources do you not take them seriously? When Saddam expresses his promise to push the Israelis into the sea, with total distruction and disappearance of the nation of Israel, do you not conceive of that as a threat?

You cannot extend the hand of peace to a mad dog. You will get bitten everytime.

You apologize for calling my position insane? What about the other vial words you used? Raving mad dog irrational double think? Doesn't sound very Buddhistic to me.
 
My point was that if we had adhered faithfully to the precepts of our constitution, there would be far fewer mad dogs out there, and that unless we start doing so, the mad dogs will never go away. Security is not bludgeoning your enemies into submission; security is not having enemies. I can't think of a single threat to world security in the world today that would still be in power if the Western world posessed some sort of nuanced perspective on humanity and morality and peace. Our excess and our megalomania and our skewed sense of Christian elitism and our White Man's Burden and our greed is what has twisted the world to its present condition. It's not too late, and the world isn't beyond repair. Peace is harder than war- it takes little self control and dignity and strength to live a life of peace than it takes to lash and bludgeon and hate. We'd have to work very hard at it, and I'm not sure that you and others like you would be willing to put in the effort. I think, based on your posts, that you would rather just keep myopically lashing out in our endless little game of wack-a-mole. I think it's those who think that more war and hate is the only way to be safe are the ones hiding in their delusion. It's a grave disservice to humanity, not to mention morally weak and simplistic, to think that this is the only option possible, this endless fighting of wars clandestine and overt. We are called- by the Constitution, by the greatest thinkers of all time, by the basic standards of human morality and logic- to live in peace. Ever read the Constitution, the Monroe Doctrine, the writings of the incredibly intelligent men who started our country? I have. Those are the true American ideals. We're hypocrites or worse if we enjoy the freedoms those documents grant while ignoring the ideas they embody.

I think the difference between you and I is that you see the world as being composed mostly of mad dogs, whereas I do not. I do not believe that you have been to Jupiter because it's not possible; perhaps you don't realize it, but living a life characterized by goodwill and social responsibility and peace IS possible. Believe whatever you want about my life; I don't know what I have to do to for you to believe what I say. I'm not sure that I care in any case.

You're never going to change your mind. I almost wonder why I bother arguing with you. If it were up to you, we'd just continue running our country into the ground, our economy slowly crumbling away, endlessly pouring money and resources into myopically whacking the moles, creating new ones with every swipe of the mallet. We'd never see the end of it, never see peace- you admitted to that yourself. Eventually, a terrorist might set off a few nukes, or some anthrax, or some smallpox, and this country, with the freedoms you profess to love, would come tumbling down into economic depression, fear, anger, panic. Or we might just keep blundering along, reviled and despised, the world's biggest and most powerful rogue nation, imposing its will from the barrel of a gun.

Or we can marshall the strength to change our ways, run the country wisely and with compassion and strength. We would regain our place in the world as the land of opportunity, acceptance, and peace, a place for all nations and creeds, prosperous and free. Stop installing puppet rulers, stop bombing residential neighborhoods and weddings, stop perpetuating the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, withdraw our army from abroad, stop using foreign aid as a tool of domination and blackmail. Weed out the corruption of our politicians, end the tyrrany of the special-interest lobbies, make the government truly of, by and for the people. And, in short, run our nation as the founding fathers would, instead of denegrating their names and legacy by perpetuating polict that they would find repugnant.

Easy, no. Instantly gratifying, no. Permanent? Yes. Americans want to see their enemies disappear in the flash of a bomb inside of three weeks; we want immediate results, right here right now on CNN. We bay for the blood of those who are our enemies, ignorant of the fact that we created all of them. As Pogo said: I have seen the enemy, gentlemen, and he is us. Looking within with brutal self honesty is difficult; blaming the outside world for our problems is not. Make no mistake; there's a lot of work to do, and we'd need to take a long hard look at the state of our nation and our souls. But Pax Americana will not come from the barrel of a gun, as easy and gratifying as it is to think so.

I apologize for my insults. When confronted with personal hostility I tend to respond in kind. But I am still of the opinon that you do not represent the best interests of the world or humanity with your opinions. Do you- does everyone who thinks like you, including the president- have the strength to take the moral high road in our national affairs?
 
Excellent Thread,

Thanks to all who have contributed. It has been very enlightening.

The bit on Dawkins' "The Selfish gene" was great as was the Prisoner Dilemma.

I haven't the time or the desire to engage in debate but I would like to get some additional information.

Kashyapa said:
My point was that if we had adhered faithfully to the precepts of our constitution, there would be far fewer mad dogs out there, and that unless we start doing so, the mad dogs will never go away.
Would have been far fewer or might have been far fewer? If you say "it 'WOULD' have been far fewer", can you justify why this is not just speculation.

Security is not bludgeoning your enemies into submission; security is not having enemies.
Since the goals of America are often in direct opposition to many other regimes throughout the world, how can we ensure that we don't have enemies? The notion of simply not having enemies seems to be naive could you expand on the idea.

I can't think of a single threat to world security in the world today that would still be in power if the Western world posessed some sort of nuanced perspective on humanity and morality and peace.
"Some"? Are you arguing that the United States is void of any perspective on humanity and morality and peace?

This seems extreme and demonstrably wrong. I can think of many examples that would counter such an extreme position. This is not to say that we have not made numerous mistakes, in truth we have, less than many perhaps more than some.

Our excess and our megalomania...
Could you give an example of our (American) "megalomania"? I can think of some pretty good examples of poor decisions and bad foreign policy but none that are representative of "megalomania".

...and our skewed sense of Christian elitism and our White Man's Burden and our greed is what has twisted the world to its present condition.
Are you saying that the problems of the world rest solely with the United States?

It's not too late, and the world isn't beyond repair.
Agreed, is someone making the argument that it is beyond repair?

We bay for the blood of those who are our enemies,...
The desires, motivations and passions of millions of Americans are complex. Can you justify your blanket indictment of the common American?

...ignorant of the fact that we created all of them.
We created ALL of them?

Looking within with brutal self honesty is difficult; blaming the outside world for our problems is not. Make no mistake; there's a lot of work to do, and we'd need to take a long hard look at the state of our nation and our souls. But Pax Americana will not come from the barrel of a gun, as easy and gratifying as it is to think so.
I'm not sure that war with Iraq proves that anyone believes that world peace will only come by way of war. Do you have something to the contrary?
 
You're wasting your time RandFan, this guy doesnt respond to logic or rational thought.
 
RandFan-

1. Read anything any of the founding fathers wrote. You'll find nothing that advocates rampant interference in the politics of other sovreign nations we're not officially at war with. We either support(ed) or undemocratically sleazed into power a large number of the world's dictators- Idi Amin, Saddam, the Shah of Iran and the sheiks of Saudi Arabia, Musharraf of Pakistan, the regime in Tajikstan, to name a few. We also had a bunch of fun adventures like the Bay of Pigs, the whole drug/ gun running biz that Air America ran in Thailand and Laos, Grenada, Panama, recruiting half the Nazi rocket scientists, the war on drugs in Colombia, and all the other dirty secret wars and operations, most of which we'll never hear about. And let's not even touch how we've handled the Israel/Palestine thing. I'm not picking a side on that (as both sides are equally tainted), but there is the matter of the $3 billion we shell out to Israel, turning a blind eye to their state-sponsored terrorism/security operations and well-developed nuclear weapons program. There are a few other regimes out there that aren't our fault, I'll grant you, North Korea for example. But we've been doing this for the last 50 years, in clear violation of the founding precepts of our country.

2. Given that many of the regimes on our current ◊◊◊◊ list were originally funded, armed, and installed by the US, it seems likely that our enemy list would be a good deal shorter if we'd had the sense to mind our business.

3. Yes, my comment was indeed extreme. I apologize. That comment only applies to the elements of the American ruling clique and the segment of the population that goes along with them. There are certainly many people who that doesn't apply to.

4. Perhaps not megalomania. But it does seem like those who are in power are motivated by two things: the desire to prevent another 9/11, and the desire to extend US influence into the Middle East for both political and industrial interests. The first is admirable, but they're going about it entirely wrong. As for the second, I can't really prove it. But given that a large number of firms with direct connections to the White House (Halliburton, Carlyle Group, Kellogg Brown & Root) stand to benefit greatly from this war, as well as the oil companies that Bush is deeply financially involved in, my suspicions are not allayed. Given also that a threat to Israel has been destroyed (don't underestimate the pro-Israel lobbies), and that we're now in the process of installing an influential pro-American government in a region that's very short of them, it's not looking good.

5. Not just the United States. We're also still dealing with the legacy of the British and Spanish empires. The phrase White Man's Burden was coined by a British empire-builder. I would say this applies to the West in general and Russia, as well.

6. Jimygun said that war would never end. I take that to be a state beyond repair, or something very close to it. I don't think we're at that point yet.

7. Again, I generalized. Sorry. Again, the ones doing the baying are largely the policy makers and those who agree with them. Given that they're in control at the moment, I meant more that they represent all of us.

8. Geez, another generalization. Not my best post. No, not ALL of them, just most.

9. I think that a lot of people assume that this continual war against terrorism is the only way to secure our country. That's the stated goal of the administration, as detailed in an article I read lately that interviewed some of the president's close friends on what he was going through now. As I've explained in some detail, I think this is entirely the wrong way to stop terrorism.

Reporter: "What do you think about Western civilization, Mr. Gandhi?"
Gandhi, chuckling softly: "I think that it would be a good idea."
 

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