Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
John Follain, Death in Perugia.
Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 32
- Thread starter LondonJohn
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John Follain, Death in Perugia.
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
Vixen, when you make a claim of someone saying or doing something, please provide a link or at least a citation. It's not our job to track down whatever it is YOU are claiming.
I'm not the one who can't grasp chronology. Mignini signed Guede's arrest warrant on 16 November 2007.
On that same day, police interviewed Roger Guede and Rudy's friend Muhan Bajrami. On Nov. 17, Ivano Raffo interviewed Guede's former teacher, Ivana Tiberi, foster father Paolo Caporali, and Giacomo Benedetti.
The police also sequestered his apartment the same day. Gee...I wonder just how the news could have leaked out that Guede was a suspect? It's a mystery!
I can find no instance of Amanda asking Curt any such thing. This is their exchange on pgs. 24-25:
Note there is NO question mark after "Rudy, questo ragazzo detto anche Rudy ". It's a statement, not a question.
As far as he knew, it hadn't yet. As he told Amanda in the exchange above: "Do you think I can understand TV in Italian? ha ha ha. I couldn't even understand Luciano and Daniela."
Roger already knew something was up because the police interviewed him on Nov. 16 when they were looking for his son.
Yes, Vixen, that's when Roger saw it, not when it was first released.
Citation needed. Unless you can provide a citation for that, it's just your say-so.
I posted their exchange above. That is NOT what Curt or Amanda said.
The Int. search warrant was issued Nov. 19 stating that ANSA had already released Guede's name and photo to the media. What part of that do you not understand? Just because Curt hadn't heard it, does not change that fact.
Jesus Christ. The date and time an article was published does NOT change to another time. It's the time it was published. Those times don't even correlate to when I accessed them.
I just accessed the TRG article now at 1:46 my time. The date and TIME that article was published still says "19/11/2007 15:43". It didn't change.
I also just accessed this article and the date and time: "Last Updated: Wednesday, 21 November 2007, 13:44 GMT. It is 2:06 PDT my time, NOT 13:44 GMT.
Since your highlighted premise is absolute rubbish, the rest of your comment is also rubbish.
Gee, I dunno, Vixen. Let's see if we can figure out why she might remember and use the name "Rudy" and not the African name of "Guede". Which is easier for an English speaker to remember after hearing it on TV?
Then why didn't the time change from 15:43 when I accessed it a few minutes ago?
NO, you did not. Nowhere did you mention Naseer Ahmad/Ergon or link to the quote.
As soon as I started reading that load of rubbish, I suspected it came from someone associated with TJMK or TMofMK due to it's absurdity. It didn't take long to find it.
By the way, 'Guede' is a French name. They do not speak African in Côte d'Ivoire, they speak French.
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gabeygoat
Master Poster
I don't see it.
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Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
Stacyhs, Thanks!
Several bits of information are contained in your cited sources (I haven't tried to translate all the Italian):
1. The Perugia and Scientific police received copies of Guede's fingerprints and palm prints from the Ministry of the Interior that were taken on 16 June 2005 (for non-criminal identity purposes) at the Perugia police station and of fingerprints only taken at the Milan police station on 27 October 2007 (for criminal identification). The packet of fingerprints & palm prints was dated 16 November 2007.
2. The police set up an interview with Giacomo Benedetti on 17 November 2007. From my quick and possibly imperfect translation of the Italian, the police got Benedetti's name from Paolo Caporali, of Guede's "foster" family, as being a school-mate and friend of Guede.
Here's one or two bits of information from another source that is relevant to the current discussion about when Guede's identity as a suspect was made public:
Source: https://famous-trials.com/amanda-knox/2635-guede-s-taped-skype-conversation
Conclusion: the police (and prosecutor Mignini) were searching publicly for Guede by photo and name by 18 November 2007. Of course, this would lead to public media notice and TV presentations.
Note that the police had called on Roger Guede, Rudy's natural father, on 16 November 2007, so that would be the first time Roger Guede would have learned that the police were looking for his son and possibly why they were seeking him. This is from your second source, the police summary.
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
Then link to it.
THIS is all you wrote: "About the Republic of Dominica, RS and the mafiosi, which a poster claimed meant nothing:" The quote is not linked to anything.
LOL! There is no question mark because it wasn't in the court transcript.
None of the statements had periods but question marks and exclamation marks were used. I suggest you take a look.
How does this change anything? It negates nothing I've said. As repeatedly provided, the news the police were looking for a fourth suspect was released the day before per the Mignini's own statement.
LOL! I haven't rewritten anything. You just refuse to believe what Mignini wrote in his own cancelling of the news blackout and the fact that a lot of people already knew the police were looking for Guede days before his arrest. You have a weird belief that the publication times of articles naming Guede on Nov. 19 change to my time!
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
According to John Follain transcripts, Guede was only referred to as 'the fourth person' until his arrest was confirmed. Ghirga was referring to him as a fourth person, too.
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Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
I didn't say anyone spoke African. That's your twist. They speak French in Côte d'Ivoire, but that doesn't mean surnames are French. The most common surnames in Cote d'Ivoire are:
- Kone (852694)
- Ouattara (774209)
- Kouassi (736416)
- Koffi (709367)
- Kouadio (653384)
- Kouame (642007)
- Yao (628973)
- Coulibaly (612471)
- Kouakou (586866)
- Konan (517173)
- N'guessan (407996)
- Traore (372695)
- Soro (324041)
- Bamba (294388)
Guede (16083) Do any of those appear French to you?
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
Oh dear. YOU added "Naseer Ahmad" yourself in #3537. How do I know? Because his original post is here and he does NOT sign it "Naseer Ahmad". He posted under the name "manfromatlan".
I was not responding to #3537, but to #3541 which you signed "NA". That is not naming the author nor do you provide a link to it in either post.
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
But court records, already provided, prove that isn't true. As I previously showed, several people were already asked by the police about Guede BY NAME starting on Nov. 16. ANSA had published his name and photo on Nov. 19 per Mignini's notice and the article itself which I previously quoted and cited.
Further proof that the info about Guede was already public on Nov. 19:
Note the date: Nov. 19 at 10:10* AM Eastern Time** which is 4:10 pm in Italy on Nov. 19.
* It's 4:49 pm my time which is 8:49 Eastern Time so the time didn't "change" to my time.
** ABC News is headquartered in NYC.
Note that it says the press had been speculating for days on a fourth suspect and ANSA and other publications had already published his name and some details STILL ON NOV. 19! Am I 'backdating' this, too?
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That's an absurd statement, although French is the official language, there are 78 indigenous languages. Also, there is no single African language. Here's Wikipedia on languages in the Ivory Coast:
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivory_Coast#Geography
Stacyhs, Thanks for this link. But this is what I get for the headline and time stamp:
Perugia and Italy are 6 hours ahead of New York time (excluding differences in the start dates of daylight saving time, not relevant in November).
So the news would have been out in Perugia and Italy by 6 pm at the latest. It probably took some time from the police announcement to the ABC reporter to send the story to New York. Here's the news:
So this news would have been available for publication by Italian media before 6 pm (18:00 on a 24-hour clock) their time, and would certainly have made the evening and morning TV news programs.
ETA: If the time stamp self-adjusts for local zone time, New York time would have been 1:10 pm (13:10) and therefore the time in Perugia and Italy when the news was released would have been no later than about 7 pm (19:00). The conclusion would not be changed.
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Also see: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15000651
As of 19 November 2007, an order for Rudy Guede to be taken into precautionary custody in prison was issued by Prosecutor Mignini as authorized by the Judge of Preliminary Investigations on 16 November 2007, in the case of the murder/rape of Meredith Kercher. (Source: Letter from Mignini to the Italian Minister of Justice and the Minister for InterPol; document copy on the MurderofMeredithKercher.net.)
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Here's one more article of interest; this one is from Italy, in Italian, and shows that the Italian media had the name of Rudy Guede on 19 November 2007; the article also includes a claim that investigators were circulating in public places with Guede's photo:
Google translation:
Source: https://www.quotidiano.net/cronaca/2007/11/20/47946-rudy_guede_ecco_quarto_uomo.shtml
Google translation:
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However, I forgot that there's another correction, assuming that the time stamp on the article is the local zone time of the computer accessing the article equivalent to the time as stamped in New York. My computer is on our zone's Daylight savings time now, while in November it would be on Standard time. The same is true for New York. This suggests that the original New York time stamp and mine would each gain an hour for the equivalent Standard times. So, if the original New York time stamp for the article was 12:10 pm Standard time in November, because of Daylight Savings Time it would now (in May) be 1:10 pm. Thus, my DST correction would make my November Standard zone time read 11:10 am. The time in Perugia and Italy for the release of Rudy Guede's name and photo to the public through the media would then be no later than about 6 pm (18:00 on the 24-hour clock).
SpitfireIX
Philosopher
I've expressed no such thing. That's just your usual dishonest attempt to mischaracterize criticism of your conspiracy theories as evidence of discomfort or fear on the part of your critics. As I (and others elsewhere) have mentioned repeatedly, and you've ignored as always, this is basic Conspiracism 101, and most of us have seen it many times before.
He drowned, but your "logical, mathematical, and objective mindset" is apparently incapable of accepting that the confused initial reports and conspiracy-mongering stating that he had survived were simply mistaken. That's not due to curiosity, any more than Anders Björkman's denial of the existence of nuclear weapons and the possibility of human space flight are due to curiosity, despite your attempts to spin them as such because you don't want to admit that he's a raving lunatic conspiracy theorist. And because of your well-known penchant for twisting people's words, I suppose I need to add that, no, I did not just call you a raving lunatic, or imply that you are one.
See above.
Because it is. You are theorizing that the CIA and the Swedish government conspired to "disappear" him and other senior officers of the Estonia, who somehow survived the sinking.
I should probably just leave the damned thing unplugged.
You're projecting again.
Understand all the lies fed to the Italian press by the police and parroted by the British tabloids?
Straw man (for about the 100th time).
Which never makes mistakes, except when they rule in favor of Amanda Knox, in which case they're always mistaken or corrupt.
Irrelevant. And in any case, the US legal system is an outgrowth of the English legal system, which is roughly as old.
So tell us, Vixen, why has Italy had an order of magnitude more cases accepted by the ECHR than either the UK, France, Germany, or Spain?
No. As has been explained to you repeatedly, and you have continued to ignore, in an inquisitorial system, this is simply not the case. The paramount objective is to get at the "truth," not to be fair to the defendant(s).
No one accepts you as an authority on criminal law, Italian or otherwise.
Which worked in this case. You just refuse to accept it because you don't like the outcome, so you have to invent conspiracy theories to explain why things happened the way they did.
And again, this is a straw man, but you just won't let go of it.
Again, you are not an authority on any legal system, Italian or otherwise.
"Ah, this is obviously some strange use of the word insight that I wasn't previously aware of."
Why? Because he has the same last name as a couple of members of the Canadian Mafia who happen to have been born in the same medium-sized city in Italy??
Who were never prosecuted.
The problems with the DNA evidence have been covered ad nauseam.
Giulio Andreotti was an Italian prime minister. Mario Andretti is an American retired race car driver. And it wasn't a political opponent, it was (allegedly) a journalist. That's some real top-notch insight you've got there, Vixen.
Information seems to indicate that early in his career, when the Mafia in his home region was relatively benign, Andreotti did in fact associate with them. However, after a far more violent Mafia faction took over, he "went straight," and became rather anti-Mafia, although he may still have been somewhat corrupt. But in any case, that proves exactly nothing about Bongiorno.
The "insufficient evidence" canard with respect to Knox and Sollecito has been discussed extensively.
With respect to Andreotti, the "insufficient evidence" acquittal was on charges of Mafia association. He was definitively acquitted on the murder charge, which even his political opponents agreed was completely bogus.
[citation needed]
Also, Vixen, kindly explain, if you would, how Vanessa Sollecito managed to become a lieutenant in the Carabinieri when she was a member of a "well-known Italian crime family."
Assumes facts not in evidence.
The truth: The Canadian Mafia decided to set up a legitimate-looking company to bid on the project, rig the bid, subcontract out the work to actual contractors, and pocket the difference, while also laundering several billion Euros in illicit cash through the enterprise. The front company was run by a real engineer with no criminal history. Dalla Vedova was engaged to do the legal work for the front company. There is zero evidence that he knew what was actually going on, and he was never charged when the scheme was discovered. Oh, and BTW, this all happened before Kercher was murdered. See here.
Assumes facts not in evidence.
The first is a blatant lie. Vanessa was fired from the Carabinieri partly because she wouldn't denounce her brother, and partly due to blatant discrimination because he was accused of a heinous crime.
As for the second, I couldn't find any information that Raffaele even has an aunt.
[citation needed]
Granting, arguendo, that that's true, there are several conditions upon which the US will decline to extradite someone. One of those is when the person would face double jeopardy. From the (US) Congressional Research Service:
Double Jeopardy
Depending on the treaty, extradition may also be denied on the basis of a number of procedural considerations. Although the U.S. Constitution's prohibition against successive prosecutions for the same offense does not extend to prosecutions by different sovereigns, it is common for extradition treaties to contain clauses proscribing extradition when the transferee would face double punishment and/or double jeopardy (also known as non bis in idem). The more historic clauses are likely to bar extradition for a second prosecution of the "same acts" or the "same event" rather than the more narrowly drawn "same offenses." The new model limits the exemption to fugitives who have been convicted or acquitted of the same offense and specifically denies the exemption where an initial prosecution has simply been abandoned.
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
Oh dear. YOU added "Naseer Ahmad" yourself in #3537. How do I know? Because his original post is here and he does NOT sign it "Naseer Ahmad". He posted under the name "manfromatlan".
I was not responding to #3537, but to #3541 which you signed "NA". That is not naming the author nor do you provide a link to it in either post.
And was it misquoted in any way? Naseer Ahmad is his real name - 'ManFromAtlan' is merely his blog site title in which he provides his identity - so there was no wrongdoing on my part whatsoever.
I can see you are judging other people by your own standards. Some of us have higher ones.
BTW I always put my citation after the quote so there was no anomaly there either.
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Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
No, sorry, on my screen it shows as:
ByABC News
November 19, 2007, 8:10 PM
Let's say that is New York time, five hours behind Greenwich Mean Time GMT, which itself is one hour behind Central European Time (Italy) so that puts it as 20 November 2007 02:00am in Italy.
This is how time zones work. In the early days of history people fixed time according to where the sun was in the sky. Thus, in England, it could be say, 5:20pm in one part of the country and 6:00pm elsewhere. So the system of Time Zone was born, with GMT - as its name 'Mean' infers - being the midpoint, whereby the regions to its east is ahead of it, measured in round hours and those to the west behind. So, when a newspaper prints its story there may well be a date difference because of this. For example, when Melbourne celebrates News Year's Day, whilst it is 1 January in Melbourne, UK papers will still show the date as being 31 December.
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SpitfireIX
Philosopher
Note: Because I've discussed this case in other threads, I've been in the habit of referring to Amanda, Raffaele, etc., by their last names. But as most people here don't do that, I'm going to attempt to break that habit.
Question, Vixen: Why did Amanda call Filomena?
Question, Vixen: Why did Amanda call Filomena?
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
The absurdity comes from a poster claiming the use of the Christian name, Rudy, was because AK couldn't pronounce 'the African' one.
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