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The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 30

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Stacyhs said:
The fact that James Raper specifically claimed she is buried next to Meredith and the cemetery personnel said clearly she is not buried at Croyden disproves Raper's claim. The fact that there is ZERO corroborating evidence of Arline's death is pretty strong evidence in itself that she is not dead. Come on, LJ, do you really think the tabloids would not have reported if she had died? This case was huge news in the UK and some reporter would have made a few bucks dredging it up again. No way would this have flown under the radar.
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I agree with this.

John Kercher's death was apparently reported widely in the UK. But the articles about his death were not so much about his life, it seems from a brief survey, but rather about the murder of Meredith Kercher and the Knox - Sollecito case.

This holds true even for relatively sober and responsible media such as the BBC. Here's an example from a BBC report on his death, where the part discussing Meredith Kercher's relationship to him, her death and the murder/rape case are discussed:

Meredith Kercher's dad John 'died from fall' in Croydon

The father of murdered British exchange student Meredith Kercher died from "a fall", police have said.

John Kercher, 77, was found collapsed on Windmill Road in Croydon, south London, on 13 January and died from his injuries in hospital on 1 February.
The Met said no-one was wanted over Mr Kercher's death and a file was being prepared for the coroner.

His daughter Miss Kercher, 21, was stabbed to death on a student exchange trip to Perugia, Italy, in 2007. Mr Kercher was found with a broken leg and arm and Det Supt Steve Andrews said police were treating his death as "unexplained".

"We are keeping an open mind as to the circumstances of his death, including whether he may have been involved in a collision," he said at the time.
The Met said a post-mortem was carried out on 11 February and found Mr Kercher's injuries "were consistent with a fall".

In 2009, Amanda Knox and her then boyfriend Rafaele Sollecito were convicted of Miss Kercher's murder after it was claimed they had all been involved in a sex game that had gone wrong. Prosecutors later alleged the murder resulted from a heated argument over cleanliness in the Perugia apartment. Two years later, both Ms Knox and Italian Mr Sollecito were cleared of Miss Kercher's murder after doubts were raised over procedures used to gather DNA evidence. A retrial was ordered in 2013 after an appeal by prosecutors, who argued that important DNA evidence had been disregarded, and in 2014 the original guilty verdicts were reinstated. But in a final ruling in the long-running case in March 2015, Italy's top appeals court overturned the convictions again. Rudy Guede was also jailed for Miss Kercher's murder and he was sentenced to 16 years in prison.
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About one-half of the article is about the murder/rape case. The article includes one photo of John Kercher with his daughter Stephanie, one of Meredith, and one of Amanda Knox (with Colin Sutherland).

So if Arline Kercher had died, I suspect that at least the tabloids would have used that sad event as an opportunity to replay the events of the crimes against Meredith and the murder/rape case.
 
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John Kercher's death absolutely was NOT widely reported in the British media. In fact, from memory, I think only the Mail (with which John Kercher had strong ties and many contacts/friends), the BBC and (IIRC) The Independent had anything at all about it. And bear in mind that there was an immediate clickbait on the John Kercher death story, since this stupid hit-and-run theory was being considered by the poiice as a possible cause of death.

I also strongly disagree on two other factors:

1) That had Arline Kercher really died, there would have had to be fairly extensive media coverage of it. This is nonsense. Nobody outside our commentary community would have had any idea of who Arline was, to start with. Secondly, how would they have found out? Do you think they have reporters scanning hospital and coroners' records regularly?

If Arline Kercher died as the result of a known illness (which I'd suggest is probable), then there wouldn't even have been a coroner's inquest. The only way the press would even find out is if someone told them. The Kercher family's direct conduit into the British press, John Kercher, was dead. It would have had to be one of the surviving children. And what possible motivation would they have had to contact a media outlet to let them know about their mother's death?

I'd further suggest that even if a British media outlet HAD found out about her death, they would only have reported it (if at all) in a very minor way indeed. As I said, John Kercher's death, what with all his friends in the press and all, and what with the "whodunit" mystery BS hanging over his death at the time, only got extremely minor coverage in a small handful of news titles (giving those titles an excuse for setting out the details of the murder and the trials once again, into the bargain...)


2) I just don't think that the cemetery staff at Croydon Cemetery can automatically be counted as reliable and accurate. Croydon Cemetery is HUGE. And I might be wrong, but I'm going to doubt that they have the highest calibre of people working in cemetery admin. I hold that the only way to ensure accurate verification on this matter is to visit the cemetery personally and to see whether or not there's a grave for Arline alongside that of Meredith.


But there you go. I'm genuinely uninterested in this story (and whether or not it's true) - but I'm still concerned about trying to analyse it sceptically. And on that front, I'm certainly prepared to accept at this point that there seem to be big question marks about the veracity of the story reported in TJMK. But I absolutely do not think that the claim can be entirely rejected yet.
 
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I would disagree that John Kercher's death wasn't widely covered in the UK. This is just some of the UK based media coverage:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-51784191#:~:text=The father of murdered British,in%2

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...chers-father-John-dies-suspected-hit-run.html

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...dith-kercher-dies-after-suspected-hit-and-run

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10911089/meredith-kercher-dad-dead-hit-run/

https://news.sky.com/story/father-o...ercher-dies-in-suspected-hit-and-run-11928080

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/cri...ter-suspected-hitandrun-croydon-a4355931.html

https://metro.co.uk/2020/02/07/meredith-kerchers-father-killed-suspected-hit-run-12197828/

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/meredith-kerchers-dad-killed-after-21447452

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/02/07/meredith-kerchers-father-dead-hit-run/
 
As for the Croyden Cemetery staff member not knowing if Arline is buried there, they do have burial records so I don't think they'd tell my friend she wasn't buried there without looking it up.

"That had Arline Kercher really died, there would have had to be fairly extensive media coverage of it. This is nonsense. Nobody outside our commentary community would have had any idea of who Arline was, to start with."

Now, that is just not true, LJ. This trial was extensively covered in England. Many people knew who Meredith's parents were which is why John's death was extensively covered as I showed in my post above, including by the BBC. Hell, the SUN had a Knox story as recently as last April 29th.

ETA: I sent a PM to my friend and just heard back. She said the cemetery employee checked the burial records on the computer. Since the supposed death was June 1, there was plenty of time for the burial to be recorded.
 
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Sergei Walankov said:
Monica Napoleoni gets three-and-a-half years, if I'm reading this correctly. Also featured in the report as somebody's lawyer is Francesco Maresca.

http://www.umbria24.it/cronaca/perugia-condannata-lex-capo-della-omicidi-napoleoni-e-altri-cinque
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Thanks for posting this.

Here's a Google translation:

Perugia, former homicide boss {provisionally convicted and} sentenced:
Napoleoni and five others

Three years and three months {sentence} for the super policewoman for unauthorized access to the computer system. The defense announces an appeal

The former head of the homicide section of the Perugia mobile squad sentenced to three years and three months. This is the sentence issued, after five hours {deliberation} in the court chamber, by the criminal section of the court of Perugia (court president Roberti, on the side Cavedoni and Sconocchia) against the deputy commissioner Monica Napoleoni for unauthorized access to the computer system dating back to the end of 2012 when the State police investigator allegedly used her power as a public official to initiate arbitrary investigations on a psychologist.

Former homicide boss sentenced
The lawyer Nicola Di Mario, who defends her in the trial, is waiting to read the reasons for the sentence, but has already announced an appeal. The lawyer also represents Lorena Zugarini, colleague of Napoleoni, who was also sentenced to three years and two months for unauthorized access to the inter-force computer system, while a lighter sentence, i.e. one year, for another policewoman Stefania Squarta defended by lawyer Francesco Maresca: "Lower penalties were applied than those requested by the prosecutor (Giuseppe Petrazzini, ed.), but we will challenge the ruling". In the sentence, the judges sentenced three other people, with suspended sentences ranging from one year and three months to 6 months and 15 days, while three others were acquitted.

The civil party, namely the psychologist, represented by the lawyer Valeriano Tascini, was awarded a provisional amount of 10,000 and 5,000 euros for one of the two daughters.
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LondonJohn said:
John Kercher's death absolutely was NOT widely reported in the British media. In fact, from memory, I think only the Mail (with which John Kercher had strong ties and many contacts/friends), the BBC and (IIRC) The Independent had anything at all about it. And bear in mind that there was an immediate clickbait on the John Kercher death story, since this stupid hit-and-run theory was being considered by the poiice as a possible cause of death.

I also strongly disagree on two other factors:

1) That had Arline Kercher really died, there would have had to be fairly extensive media coverage of it. This is nonsense. Nobody outside our commentary community would have had any idea of who Arline was, to start with. Secondly, how would they have found out? Do you think they have reporters scanning hospital and coroners' records regularly?

If Arline Kercher died as the result of a known illness (which I'd suggest is probable), then there wouldn't even have been a coroner's inquest. The only way the press would even find out is if someone told them. The Kercher family's direct conduit into the British press, John Kercher, was dead. It would have had to be one of the surviving children. And what possible motivation would they have had to contact a media outlet to let them know about their mother's death?

I'd further suggest that even if a British media outlet HAD found out about her death, they would only have reported it (if at all) in a very minor way indeed. As I said, John Kercher's death, what with all his friends in the press and all, and what with the "whodunit" mystery BS hanging over his death at the time, only got extremely minor coverage in a small handful of news titles (giving those titles an excuse for setting out the details of the murder and the trials once again, into the bargain...)


2) I just don't think that the cemetery staff at Croydon Cemetery can automatically be counted as reliable and accurate. Croydon Cemetery is HUGE. And I might be wrong, but I'm going to doubt that they have the highest calibre of people working in cemetery admin. I hold that the only way to ensure accurate verification on this matter is to visit the cemetery personally and to see whether or not there's a grave for Arline alongside that of Meredith.


But there you go. I'm genuinely uninterested in this story (and whether or not it's true) - but I'm still concerned about trying to analyse it sceptically. And on that front, I'm certainly prepared to accept at this point that there seem to be big question marks about the veracity of the story reported in TJMK. But I absolutely do not think that the claim can be entirely rejected yet.
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Stacyhs said:
I would disagree that John Kercher's death wasn't widely covered in the UK. This is just some of the UK based media coverage:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-51784191#:~:text=The father of murdered British,in%2

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...chers-father-John-dies-suspected-hit-run.html

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...dith-kercher-dies-after-suspected-hit-and-run

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10911089/meredith-kercher-dad-dead-hit-run/

https://news.sky.com/story/father-o...ercher-dies-in-suspected-hit-and-run-11928080

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/cri...ter-suspected-hitandrun-croydon-a4355931.html

https://metro.co.uk/2020/02/07/meredith-kerchers-father-killed-suspected-hit-run-12197828/

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/meredith-kerchers-dad-killed-after-21447452

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/02/07/meredith-kerchers-father-dead-hit-run/
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LJ, I think that Arline Kercher has received considerable coverage in the world media, including UK media, specifically related to the murder of Meredith and the trials following, including those of Knox and Sollecito. A Google search will provide many hits on her name.

In this one, Arline Kercher's occupation is given as "Meredith's Mother":

https://thestickyfacts.com/arline-kercher-facts/
 
Here's the Google translation of another article from Italy on Napoleoni's provisional conviction:

Abusive investigation of the psychiatrist appointed by the judge for the divorce {of Napoleoni and her husband}, the policewoman of the investigation into the Kercher crime sentenced

Two other members of the police convicted: they would have exploited their position for personal interests.

Three years and three months of imprisonment for the former head of the homicide section of the Perugia Flying Squad Monica Napoleoni, accused of having used her position to initiate arbitrary investigations on a psychologist appointed by the Court in the context of a dispute between her and the ex-husband.
Her colleague Lorena Zugarini was also sentenced to three years and two months for unauthorized access to the inter-force IT system, and one year for the policewoman Stefania Squarta.

The judges sentenced three other people who allegedly helped Napoleoni in various capacities, with sentences ranging from one year and three months to 6 months and 15 days, with the benefit of suspension. Three other defendants acquitted.

The psychologist who had filed a civil action, through the lawyer Valeriano Tascini, was awarded a provisional amount of 10 thousand euros, while 5 thousand went to both daughters of the professional.

The defendants were defended by lawyers Nicola Di Mario, Francesco Maresca, Alessandro Bacchi, Gloria Isidori, Guido Rondoni, Alessandro Di Baio and Bruno Naso.
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Source: https://www.perugiatoday.it/cronaca...bLeAbzeYQNmi_TNvuWJjE830DGJePncWzUu-_xM0roS40

ETA: Note that the crime charged was committed by a group of police (apparently under Napoleoni's direction) in what in the US would be termed a criminal conspiracy.
 
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Numbers said:
LJ, I think that Arline Kercher has received considerable coverage in the world media, including UK media, specifically related to the murder of Meredith and the trials following, including those of Knox and Sollecito. A Google search will provide many hits on her name.

In this one, Arline Kercher's occupation is given as "Meredith's Mother":

https://thestickyfacts.com/arline-kercher-facts/
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Of course her name featured regularly - when either the murder itself or the various trials (especially, obviously, when the Kercher family gave press conferences.....) were live news.

Not now though.

And I go right back to pointing out: how on earth would the media even have known that Arline Kercher had died - especially if she'd died (as I deem likely) from a long-term health condition, in home or a hospital/hospice? As I said, in those sorts of circumstances, it would have required one of her children (or a friend who knew that she'd died) to contact the media themselves. And as I also said: why would they want to do that?

Lastly, I go back to my belief that the report of her death was extremely specific - giving the exact date of her death, and the precise location of her grave. I'd have expected someone who was either lying or mistaken in claiming her death to have instead written something perhaps like this: "I understand that Arline Kercher died a few months or so ago"

Maybe someone over at the cesspit will eventually post - either with verification (perhaps including a photo of the grave), or with a refutation of the claim. Or maybe someone else will feel compelled to make the effort to visit the cemetery to check it out. Maybe time will tell, either way.
 
Numbers said:
Here's the Google translation of another article from Italy on Napoleoni's provisional conviction:



Source: https://www.perugiatoday.it/cronaca...bLeAbzeYQNmi_TNvuWJjE830DGJePncWzUu-_xM0roS40

ETA: Note that the crime charged was committed by a group of police (apparently under Napoleoni's direction) in what in the US would be termed a criminal conspiracy.
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I mean, we don't want to say we t...... hold on, yes of course we DO want to say it:

We Told You So


(I suppose it'll be *interesting* to see how the nutters try to spin this - or whether they try to ignore it completely...)
 
Statement from Amanda Knox:

In his memoir, Raffaele Sollecito describes the threats & abuse Monica Napoleoni, head of the Perugia homicide squad, subjected us to. She, & two other officers, have now been convicted of similar abuses of power in a separate case. Ve l'abbiamo detto.

If you haven't read Honor Bound, I recommend it. Raffaele was subjected to incredible injustice simply b/c he was my alibi. His refusal to compromise his honesty & integrity for a girl he knew for only 5 days is both heroic & underappreciated.

Meanwhile, Raffaele & I continue to be held accountable for statements we were coerced into signing during interrogations orchestrated & conducted by this corrupt cop. Fun fact: I'm still wrongfully convicted of slander, & Raffaele was denied compensation, because of that.
 
LondonJohn said:
Of course her name featured regularly - when either the murder itself or the various trials (especially, obviously, when the Kercher family gave press conferences.....) were live news.

Not now though.
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That doesn't mean that people have forgotten who she is though.

And I go right back to pointing out: how on earth would the media even have known that Arline Kercher had died - especially if she'd died (as I deem likely) from a long-term health condition, in home or a hospital/hospice? As I said, in those sorts of circumstances, it would have required one of her children (or a friend who knew that she'd died) to contact the media themselves. And as I also said: why would they want to do that?
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Come on, LJ. Do you think this wouldn't have gotten out through someone? A friend of a friend of a friend of the family? People have big mouths. They talk. A grave digger? A headstone maker? An employee of the hospital/hospice down at the pub? People call tabloids and sell stories.

Lastly, I go back to my belief that the report of her death was extremely specific - giving the exact date of her death, and the precise location of her grave.
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Exactly. The precise location J Raper gave was wrong according to Croyden Cemetery itself.

I'd have expected someone who was either lying or mistaken in claiming her death to have instead written something perhaps like this: "I understand that Arline Kercher died a few months or so ago"
Click to expand...

Why? How would that change anything? If he was concerned with accuracy, he'd have given some evidence of how he knew this.


Maybe someone over at the cesspit will eventually post - either with verification (perhaps including a photo of the grave), or with a refutation of the claim. Or maybe someone else will feel compelled to make the effort to visit the cemetery to check it out. Maybe time will tell, either way.
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Do you remember when Quennell claimed that Mignini only dropped his lawsuit against Sollecito and Gumbel because they agreed to publicly admit they lied in their book and would publicly apologize to him? None of that was true. In the current "Arline has died" Front Page article they state that John Kercher was killed in a 'hit and run' accident which is untrue. TJMK is not known for its accuracy in reporting. Clearly TJMK isn't interested in verifying what James Raper claimed.
 
LondonJohn said:
Of course her name featured regularly - when either the murder itself or the various trials (especially, obviously, when the Kercher family gave press conferences.....) were live news.

Not now though.

And I go right back to pointing out: how on earth would the media even have known that Arline Kercher had died - especially if she'd died (as I deem likely) from a long-term health condition, in home or a hospital/hospice? As I said, in those sorts of circumstances, it would have required one of her children (or a friend who knew that she'd died) to contact the media themselves. And as I also said: why would they want to do that?

Lastly, I go back to my belief that the report of her death was extremely specific - giving the exact date of her death, and the precise location of her grave. I'd have expected someone who was either lying or mistaken in claiming her death to have instead written something perhaps like this: "I understand that Arline Kercher died a few months or so ago"

Maybe someone over at the cesspit will eventually post - either with verification (perhaps including a photo of the grave), or with a refutation of the claim. Or maybe someone else will feel compelled to make the effort to visit the cemetery to check it out. Maybe time will tell, either way.
Click to expand...

Stacyhs said:
That doesn't mean that people have forgotten who she is though.



Come on, LJ. Do you think this wouldn't have gotten out through someone? A friend of a friend of a friend of the family? People have big mouths. They talk. A grave digger? A headstone maker? An employee of the hospital/hospice down at the pub? People call tabloids and sell stories.



Exactly. The precise location J Raper gave was wrong according to Croyden Cemetery itself.



Why? How would that change anything? If he was concerned with accuracy, he'd have given some evidence of how he knew this.




Do you remember when Quennell claimed that Mignini only dropped his lawsuit against Sollecito and Gumbel because they agreed to publicly admit they lied in their book and would publicly apologize to him? None of that was true. In the current "Arline has died" Front Page article they state that John Kercher was killed in a 'hit and run' accident which is untrue. TJMK is not known for its accuracy in reporting. Clearly TJMK isn't interested in verifying what James Raper claimed.
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It may be useful to look for some evidence.

Start with the images on this site:

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/25923687/meredith-susanna_cara-kercher

There are photos of Meredith Kercher's grave on the referenced web site. As of 16 Sep 2018, a photo shows that the grave site to the right of her gravestone marker was occupied, but the site to the left was open.

Is the grave site to the left now occupied? If so, who is buried there? If the site remains unoccupied, does that falsify the TJMK claim?

According to Stacyhs's informant, who spoke to staff at the Croydon cemetery, that cemetery has no record of a burial of Arline Kercher.
 
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Croydon Cemetery (in fact it's now called Mitcham Road Cemetery) is a council-run cemetery. It's got absolutely nothing to do with Croydon Minster/Croydon Parish Church. Indeed, it's under the umbrella of no religious institution whatsoever. It's a municipal facility.

And institutions such as Croydon Minster typically only carry death/remembrance notices for congregational parishioners in any case. I don't know what religion (if any) Arline Kercher observed, or if she was a member of the congregation of any place of worship.
 
Numbers said:
It may be useful to look for some evidence.

Is the grave site to the left now occupied? If so, who is buried there? If the site remains unoccupied, does that falsify the TJMK claim?
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If reliable evidence can be obtained that as of right now there's no grave of Arline Kercher alongside Meredith's grave, then of course it entirely falsifies the claim that the two are buried next to each other; it would also go a long way - but not all the way - to falsifying the claim that Arline Kercher had died.



According to Stacyhs's informant, who spoke to staff at the Croydon cemetery, that cemetery has no record of a burial of Arline Kercher.
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I know. And this is pretty good evidence. But I repeat my belief that one cannot necessarily assume that a council worker at a (very large) council cemetery will be 100% accurate, I'm afraid.
 
Sorry, I meant to say that Meredith's funeral was held in Croydon Minster/Croydon Parish Church and she's buried in Mitcham Rd. Cemetery. My allergies are flaring up so badly right now I can hardly see straight through the puffy eyes and the constant sneezing and sniffling is driving me nuts. The smoke in the air from the fires isn't helping any either. We've got the worst air pollution in the world right now.
 
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