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Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

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Vixen said:
The word 'disappeared' is slang.
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No it isn't. We already went around this, disappeared is a very specific legal term, it is not slang. Unless you are USING it as slang.
Vixen said:
The term is 'rendition' and of course, this has not been established because none of the missing Estonians have been accounted for. Think about t. The disaster happened in 1994 and the Estonia government bodies are still referring to them as 'missing' in 2006.
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Because the bodies haven't been recovered. That's neither unusual nor is it nefarious.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
No it isn't. We already went around this, disappeared is a very specific legal term, it is not slang. Unless you are USING it as slang.

Because the bodies haven't been recovered. That's neither unusual nor is it nefarious.
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Do you think clever semantics makes a thing go away?

Remember how you said the rendition of the two Egyptian guys by Sweden acting for the CIA was 'just an ordinary deportation'? You thought that your saying it made it so.

But it is official. The two Egyptian guys were renditioned.

http://hrlibrary.umn.edu/undocs/1416-2005.html

https://www.therenditionproject.org.uk/prisoners/agiza_elzery.html

Before trying to explain a serious issue away with a meaningless platitude or euphemism, such as 'oh it was just an ordinary deportation' or it's 'Because the bodies haven't been recovered', think about whether your statements are based in truth or just handwaving away things you do not wish to think about.
 
Vixen said:
The word 'disappeared' is slang. The term is 'rendition' and of course, this has not been established because none of the missing Estonians have been accounted for. Think about t. The disaster happened in 1994 and the Estonia government bodies are still referring to them as 'missing' in 2006.
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So no evidence that anyone was 'disappeared'?

We went through this at great length, you don't appear to have anything new to bring to it so I have no further interest until you do
 
Vixen said:
That is what the CIA were doing. Of a human rights project, countries from all over the world provided information on disappeared persons (albeit many only disappeared temporarily). Only three countries globally refused transparency. One of them was Sweden. And Sweden was involved in a rendition exercise in the case of two Egyptians. Confirmed. You think this is science-fiction.
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We went through this at length already.

Come back when you have something new otherwise I am not interested
 
Vixen said:
Presumably the then Swedish government. You recall, having vowed to bring up the loved ones' bodies suddenly to was decided to bury the wreck in concrete instead.
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KDLarsen said:
Hardly the first time someone, government or private, under a wave of emotion, have promised to repatriate a body from an extreme environment, given it a go, realised how impractical or expensive it would be, and then abandoned the plan.
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Indeed, as can be seen in the Estonia Archive: https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?infosida=bargning-skydd

The Swedish Maritime Administration (Sjöfartsverket) was tasked by the government to assess the technical and legal possibilities for a salvage operation. They delivered a first report on oct 11th.

They got a new task to dig into the details, including how this might affect the rescue personel when retrieving this amount of bodies. They delivered their report on dec 14th, saying that it was possible, but complicated.

In paralell, an ethics commiteee was appointed. They gave their report also on the 14th, recommending the site to be turned into a grave site, and not to be touched.

The Swedish government had talks with the governments of Finland and Estonia, as well as the party chairs for all parties represented in the Swedish parliament.

On the 15th, the government announced that Estonia would not be salvaged but rather to be turned into a protected grave site.

So that was how they "suddenly" changed their mind.
 
Vixen said:
It is factual news.
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All conspiracy theories start with a nugget of fact and then go on to try to explain that fact with a lot of speculative nonsense. Pointing to the nugget doesn't suddenly make the mountain of conspiratorial thinking go away.

Everyone except for you seems to pretty clearly understand the difference between a fact and a conspiracy theory. You're the one desperately trying to blur the lines and pretend you're just reporting the news.
 
JayUtah said:
Oh, geez, here we go again. Another 400 pages of ignorant twaddle from you.
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I was off work this morning, and waiting for Mrs Mojo to get ready to go out, so I had a look through the previous iterations of this thread. I found much twaddle that was ignorant, but also much that was clearly dishonest.
 
Vixen said:
Do you think clever semantics makes a thing go away?
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No, but nobody you're talking to thinks that. You are the one who thinks "clever" semantics can make two Egyptians enforcedly disappear. And the only reason you think that is because of something Christopher Bollyn wrote.
 
They haven't 'disappeared'anyway
We went through this at length already.
 
Vixen said:
Do you think clever semantics makes a thing go away?

Remember how you said the rendition of the two Egyptian guys by Sweden acting for the CIA was 'just an ordinary deportation'? You thought that your saying it made it so.
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I never said that. You kept claiming I said that, but I never did.

Quote me saying it. Quote me saying it was an ordinary deportation.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
I never said that. You kept claiming I said that, but I never did.

Quote me saying it. Quote me saying it was an ordinary deportation.
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Do you confirm or deny being the author of the following posts?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13685867#post13685867

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13686630#post13686630

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13686616#post13686616

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13685909#post13685909


http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13724304#post13724304

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13724693#post13724693

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=14082493#post14082493

The clear thrust of your posts is that the two Egyptian guys were not disappeared (or, renditioned to use the correct term). You even employed the logical fallacy #103 of arguing from emotion by claiming I called you 'a racist', when I did no such thing.
 
Reformed Offlian said:
No, but nobody you're talking to thinks that. You are the one who thinks "clever" semantics can make two Egyptians enforcedly disappear. And the only reason you think that is because of something Christopher Bollyn wrote.
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Please see the findings of the following:

Ahmed Hussein Mustafa Kamil Agiza v. Sweden, CAT/C/34/D/233/2003, UN Committee Against Torture (CAT), 24 May 2005, available at: https://www.refworld.org/cases,CAT,42ce734a2.html [accessed 5 January 2022]

14. The Committee against Torture, acting under article 22, paragraph 7, of the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, decides that the facts before it constitute breaches by the State party of articles 3 and 22 of the Convention.

UNHCR
https://www.refworld.org/cases,CAT,42ce734a2.html
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Do you confirm or deny that Sweden caused the rendition (= 'disappearance') of these two guys on behalf of the CIA. A simple yes or no will suffice.

Before you answer, may I suggest you read over the following webpage:

https://www.therenditionproject.org.uk/prisoners/agiza_elzery.html

Whilst you are busy, perhaps consider why Sweden is one of the only three countries to refuse to disclose their rendition activities, given the 9/11 issue is long over. What remaining information is still classified, do you think?
 
Vixen said:
Do you think clever semantics makes a thing go away?

Remember how you said the rendition of the two Egyptian guys by Sweden acting for the CIA was 'just an ordinary deportation'? You thought that your saying it made it so.
Click to expand...

MarkCorrigan said:
I never said that. You kept claiming I said that, but I never did.

Quote me saying it. Quote me saying it was an ordinary deportation.
Click to expand...

Vixen said:
Do you confirm or deny being the author of the following posts?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13685867#post13685867

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13686630#post13686630

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13686616#post13686616

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13685909#post13685909


http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13724304#post13724304

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13724693#post13724693

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=14082493#post14082493
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Can you quote Mark calling it an ordinary deportation? He doesn't in any of the posts you linked to there.
 
Vixen said:
Please see the findings of the following:



Do you confirm or deny that Sweden caused the rendition (= 'disappearance') of these two guys on behalf of the CIA. A simple yes or no will suffice.

Before you answer, may I suggest you read over the following webpage:

https://www.therenditionproject.org.uk/prisoners/agiza_elzery.html

Whilst you are busy, perhaps consider why Sweden is one of the only three countries to refuse to disclose their rendition activities, given the 9/11 issue is long over. What remaining information is still classified, do you think?
Click to expand...

How could they be disappeared when we know where they are?
 
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