• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

Status
Not open for further replies.
Vixen said:
Quote from Mark Corrigan: "It was a deportation."

Issue closed.
Click to expand...

zooterkin said:
Indeed it is. You have failed to show he called it an ordinary deportation.
Click to expand...


Indeed. And in the posts Vixen linked to he variously called it "against Sweden's own rules", "illegal", "reprehensible and illegal", and "a totally different crime, that of enforced deportation". Of the remaining three, one said that he had "never once claimed they were ordinary deportations" and the other two didn't use the term "deportation" at all.

As usual, Vixen has provided sources that fail to support her claim.
 
Mojo said:
Indeed. And in the posts Vixen linked to he variously called it "against Sweden's own rules", "illegal", "reprehensible and illegal", and "a totally different crime, that of enforced deportation". Of the remaining three, one said that he had "never once claimed they were ordinary deportations" and the other two didn't use the term "deportation" at all.

As usual, Vixen has provided sources that fail to support her claim.
Click to expand...

He only modified his claim when confronted with evidence it was no way a 'asylum denied' issue wherein overzealous officials somehow failed in their duties here and there.
 
Vixen said:
If you prefer to remain in ignorance, that is of course, your prerogative. But truth is not dependent on your personal approval.
Click to expand...

So they have disappeared?

How come we know what happened to them and where they are?
 
Andy_Ross said:
So they have disappeared?

How come we know what happened to them and where they are?
Click to expand...

disappear
/ˌdɪsəˈpɪə/
verb
past tense: disappeared; past participle: disappeared
cease to be visible.
"he disappeared into the trees"
Similar:
vanish
pass from sight
cease to be visible
vanish from sight
recede from view
be lost to view/sight
fade
fade/melt away
withdraw

Doesn't say anything about dying or execution.
 
Vixen said:
If you prefer to remain in ignorance, that is of course, your prerogative. But truth is not dependent on your personal approval.
Click to expand...

Enforced disappearance has a precise definition in international law. You've been told this multiple times, but at this point it's clear you simply don't care. You seem to think you can just will facts by imagining them.
 
Vixen said:
disappear
/ˌdɪsəˈpɪə/
verb
past tense: disappeared; past participle: disappeared
cease to be visible.
"he disappeared into the trees"
Similar:
vanish
pass from sight
cease to be visible
vanish from sight
recede from view
be lost to view/sight
fade
fade/melt away
withdraw

Doesn't say anything about dying or execution.
Click to expand...

If we see them and know where they went they didn't disappear
 
Andy_Ross said:
What does it have to do with the Estonia anyway, apart from being one of your usual squirrels?
Click to expand...

These two US aircrafts which were paid for by the US Embassy in Stockholm left Arlanda Airport 30 Sept 1994 with nine people on board. The same number as the Estonian crew who were listed as survivors but then mysteriously disappeared. (I think one did die in the interim.)

53165448532_462605c982.jpg


53166520848_c21255f0a5.jpg



Plus in the case of the second captain, Arvo Piht, also listed as a survivor, he was last seen in Helsinki, and as reported by Helsingin Sanomat and the Evening Standard. This was the Interpol notice put out for him, so he was obviously considered to be alive.

53166489830_ac7b8921d7_c.jpg
 
Vixen said:
Why are these two guys included in the Rendition Project, then?
Click to expand...

Are they included in the Disappearance Project? No. Finis.

To remind everyone of the particular drain this conversation is circling, you wish to establish that Sweden has a history of secretly disappearing people, to support the conspiracy theory that they (quite incredibly) managed to do that to the officers of the Estonia.

You failed to show Sweden has any such history of secretly disappearing people despite your desperate attempts to elide this into covering non-secret but unlawful deportation.
 
Vixen said:
It also reads:



The general convention is that military personnel are left to lie with their ship. These were civilians. The Baltic is relatively extremely shallow. It would have been feasible and viable to rescue the strickened drowned and recoup the captain, who was witnessed as being dead, for a forensic pathology examination as to what could have caused his forfeiting control of the vessel (you recall it was the third and fourth mates left to send out the Mayday).

As for concrete, that is normally used for suspected radioactivity, no?
Click to expand...

Quickly changing the subject I see. You called the change "sudden". I just showed the amount of work and the number of people involved in making the decision, and the time it took from when they started looking into it, until they made the decision.

Of course there are some that are unhappy. There is a very vocal group of people that argue for that the ship should have been salvaged, and all found bodies should have been recovered. (It would of course be impossible to recover all bodies, something I'm not sure that all understand). There are also family members to passengers that argue for the opposite - namely that it should be a grave site, and not touched at all. They are not as vocal, and in fact have been threatened by the first group to silence them. (Ref: https://www.dn.se/varlden/estoniaanhorig-forsvarar-haveriutredningens-resultat/ in Swedish)

The point about covering the wreck was of course to minimize the risk that people would disobey the law prohibiting diving at the ship. As we know the laws were not enough since we've had unlawful visits to the wreck site.

Now, I don't claim to know what is the right decision, nor do I claim to defend the decisions and communications that were made by the Swedish government. I just point out that although they where very quick to say it should be salvaged, they did spend quite some time, and consulted with relevant resources before they took the next decision.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Are they included in the Disappearance Project? No. Finis.

To remind everyone of the particular drain this conversation is circling, you wish to establish that Sweden has a history of secretly disappearing people, to support the conspiracy theory that they (quite incredibly) managed to do that to the officers of the Estonia.

You failed to show Sweden has any such history of secretly disappearing people despite your desperate attempts to elide this into covering non-secret but unlawful deportation.
Click to expand...

It is not secret. They had to admit it with these two Egyptian guys because it went to a human rights tribunal.

However, Sweden has declined to provide transparency on any other renditions, unlike other countries. It is a democratic, liberal society so one is justified in asking what information is being concealed. If it is the fact of the missing Estonian 'survivors' then that would explain it. If classified, which it most certainly would be, given Sweden, Finland and Estonia believe in an open court of justice, then it is quite likely it will not be declassified until the 75 standard years are up.
 
Vixen said:
It is not secret.
Click to expand...

That is the point. Being disappeared has a legal definition.

Expressing the facts in a hundred new ways will not result in its being factual that Sweden disappeared those two men. If you know of a different case of Sweden actually disappearing anyone perhaps you should start again with that case because this one is never going to make the point you want to make.
 
Vixen said:
These two US aircrafts which were paid for by the US Embassy in Stockholm left Arlanda Airport 30 Sept 1994 with nine people on board. The same number as the Estonian crew who were listed as survivors but then mysteriously disappeared. (I think one did die in the interim.)

[qimg]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53165448532_462605c982.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53166520848_c21255f0a5.jpg[/qimg]


Plus in the case of the second captain, Arvo Piht, also listed as a survivor, he was last seen in Helsinki, and as reported by Helsingin Sanomat and the Evening Standard. This was the Interpol notice put out for him, so he was obviously considered to be alive.

[qimg]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53166489830_ac7b8921d7_c.jpg[/qimg]
Click to expand...
And you have the cheek to ask why this thread is in Conspiracy Theories?
 
Vixen said:
I get that you don't understand the concept but it would have been easy enough for you to appraise yourself as to what the rendition programme was about.
Click to expand...

Vixen said:
You have this quaintly charming but rather immature belief that if you deny something then it ain't so.
Click to expand...

Vixen said:
If you prefer to remain in ignorance, that is of course, your prerogative. But truth is not dependent on your personal approval.
Click to expand...

:id:
 
Last edited:
Vixen said:
Stop trying to be clever. A person can disappear for hours, days, months or even years.
Click to expand...

That doesn't constitute enforced disappearance as defined in international law. According to the relevant case law, someone must be held incommunicado for at least 7 days in order to satisfy that element of the statute. The Egyptians were incommunicado for only 2 days.

You don't get to apply your private definitions when accusing others of crimes.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom