Spanking children doesn't work.

[Jules Galen]

It sounds like you had a horrible experience. But not all schools are like that. Too many are, but quite a few have dedicated staff and administrators who know what they're doing.

I know there are some good people out there, but other than my fellow teachers I didn't see any (and I really thought a lot of my fellow teachers).

Anyways, there is always this "Shortage of Teachers" we keep hearing about. Baloney! I mean as a newly-minted teacher do you want to teach Chemistry of Physics at a middle-class High School? Good luck finding that Job!

However, there are no shortage of jobs teaching Mexican kids from poor neighborhoods...man, they just can't fill those jobs fast enough! And this is where we send out newest teachers...at least where I am from. These poor teachers are put in classes that can best be served by someone who is Bi-Lingual, and has a lot of experience - like 10-15+ years. Because teaching challenging kids like this is a lot tougher than teaching the whitebreads. And...it's going to take a lotmore administrative support.

And this is where the Administration let me down...utterly let me down. I had those SOBs review and buy into my Classroom Management Plan, and when it came time for them to do their part they stabbed me in the back. And because I was untenured, I couldn't even take that crap before a review board. Once this happened, I was pretty much out of control.

So...I got a bunch of kids that know - absolutely know - that there are ultimately no consequences to their actions - pretty much no matter how bad they get. The Admins have stabbed me in the back and the parents are....absent) As a result of this, I'm not afraid to say to any new teacher that Classroom Management Plans are the biggest loads of time-wasting BS ever conceived if the administration will not back you up.

And...why should the Admins care about backing up a new teacher - there's plenty more where that one came from!

 

[HTTR]

You're talking about spanking kids and beating dogs. That's not a fair comparison. This is obviously an emotional subject for some.

I don't beat dogs but I've swatted one on the butt to get its attention or to reinforce something important that I'm trying to teach it, like to stay out of the street or whatever. I'm talking about a light slap that wouldn't even hurt a small child. It gets their attention. This is extremely rare for me though.

I just had a discussion yesterday about hitting dogs. Someone thought I should beat my dog for this or that after it's over a year old. The guy who said that is not welcome in my home anymore (I'd just met him and didn't like him much anyways but that was a factor in my decision).

My Dad "spanked" me with his belt several times, mainly for lying. I don't think that's the right thing to do at all, it was his frustration that led to that. I would never resort to that type of thing with anyone or any animal.

Having said all that, I did not grow up with violent tendencies of any kind because of my spanking. I don't consider what he did as abuse, but I consider it wrong and would never ever do that.

I don't have a problem with parents swatting their kids on the butt now and then. Frankly, as long as they aren't abusing the child, that is none of my business.

Sometimes standing in line at the store (It's always in line at the store for me!) I come close to asking the parent of an overly obnoxious child if I can smack it a couple of times for them - but then I think, in this situation the person who really needs it is the parent.

I find the highlighted statements in conflict with each other.

One doesn't need to hit a dog to train it regardless of its age. It can work as a deterrence to certain behaviors, but it also teaches other things. Specifically, violence as a training tool teaches the recipient that violence is a tool to be used to get people to behave as we want them to.

I'm no pacifist. There are certainly times when violence is right course of action, which is typically when more or worse violence can be averted.

I haven't needed to strike my kids, not even the euphemistic slap on the diapered butt. As a parent or guardian of an infant/toddler, we have an obligation to keep them from harm. If that means picking them up or otherwise physically moving them, a tactic we wouldn't use on an adult, then so be it. Once they get older, physical restraint becomes a much more extreme measure. I wouldn't do anything physical that I wouldn't be comfortable with another adult doing in the same situation to my own kid.

Fear of physical punishment at best teaches someone to avoid doing something for fear of physical punishment. It doesn't teach them right from wrong. It doesn't teach empathy. A parent may also attempt to teach those lessons alongside of the physical punishment, but it's not inherent to the aversion technique.

More importantly, it's typically in conflict to the lesson being taught. Take a kid who is speaking disrespectfully to a parent. A slap in the face doesn't teach the kid anything about respect. It doesn't teach them how to address people in the proper tone. It tells the kid that parents can treat them like chattel. It teaches them that if they have power over someone, physical violence is a proper response to verbal aggression.

If the kid doesn't mouth off again, the parent assumes a lesson was learned. It wasn't. The kid is keeping his mouth shut because he doesn't want to get hit, not because he respects you. There's a big difference. If you haven't made the kid too fearful, just watch how that kid shows respect to other people.

Like most people on FB, I have a number who put out the typical memes about how spanking teaches respect and so forth. What's interesting is that a number of them, especially one very vocal one, are like little FB dictators when it comes to their walls. People who disagree with them, even in the most polite terms, get blocked followed by some public shaming.

Is that respect? No. They are behaving as they have been taught, which is "this is my house, and what I say goes or <smack> you're gonna get it."

I wonder how many of the verbally abusive trolls (the ones using vile language and hateful comments like how someone should be raped) were the ones raised with spanking and other physical violence. I would bet most are, because when faced with little chance for consequences, they behave horribly. I find it hard to imagine those whose parents used other techniques to teach them respect and empathy are posting rape threats.

On the other side of this coin the "slap in the face" technique doesn't teach kids how to stand up to themselves. I want and expect my kids to show me some disrespect from time to time, especially as they get older. It's only natural to rebel and to disagree with authority. My job is to teach them how to do it properly, which includes when to do it and the manner in which it is done.

If a child grows up fearful of showing any disrespect or otherwise challenging their parents, it will make it harder for them in many aspects of their lives. A couple of good smacks to the face as they are coming into their own can be enough to turn them into people who avoid conflict, like asking for a raise or telling a boss (better still, a boyfriend) "no" respectfully but forcefully.

 

[Meadmaker]

I didn't spank my kid. I don't think that spanking is a good idea.

That being said, I think it was pretty universal in America prior to about 1960, and extremely common for another decade or two after that. Was America a horrible place full of unhappy people who experienced all those negative outcomes cited by researchers? I vaguely recall from reading history books that our ancestors accomplished a great deal, if nothing else. It didn't seem to destroy them.

And then I have questions about some of the study's methods. I haven't read the study itself, but there are a few things I wonder about. For example, spanking is, apparently, correlated with increased aggression, which is a detrimental outcome. Oh yeah? Says who? When did aggression become an automatic negative? I suppose it depends on what sort of aggression we are talking about. I guess I would like to hear more about that portion of the study.

And then there is this quote from the linked article about the study: "Gershoff and Grogan-Kaylor tested for some long-term effects among adults who were spanked as children. The more they were spanked, the more likely they were to exhibit anti-social behavior and to experience mental health problems." Could it be that they are confusing cause and effect? Could it be that in a society where kids were customarily spanked for misbehavior, that the anti-social and those with a tendency toward mental illness were more likely to be spanked?

That's not an argument in support of spanking, by the way, because the premise of the argument is that behavior is associated with natural trends, and not strongly influenced by parenting or punishment. In other words, it says "nature" is more significant than "nurture". If that's the case, then it would make sense that those whose nature was not very nice would get a lot more spankings, but the study would say that those who received more spankings were not very nice. Once again, I'd like to see the data.

My overall opinion is that spanking kids is not a great idea, and not necessary, but it isn't the worst thing you could do. I think sometimes studies are skewed to show the desired results.

 

[bigred]

Again, it really depends on the child, the punishment, the situation. I don't think one can say that physical punishment works or doesn't work, full stop. It works sometimes, with some children.

Aversion to pain and punishment is one thing, but with moderation.

Would you please stop trying to combat gross oversimplifications and general stupidity with logic, rational thought, and (worst of all - gasp ) common sense?? Hypersensitive, self-righteous morons HATE that. As you're no doubt finding out. Props for effort to you and anyone else for trying I guess, but why spit into a hurricane?

 

[Ethan Thane Athen]

Because I have their kid in my class for about 8 hours a day, and I manage to keep them under control using my classroom management techniques.

That being said, after teaching for 16 years, you become pretty expert on effective non-corporal punishment, so it's expecting a lot out of parents to be as good at discipline as a teacher who's been doing it for a long time. I was spanked a couple of times, when I was doing something that could have got me killed. It didn't warp me.

Disclosure: I have smacked 2 of my four children, very occasionally so may be biased...

Your experience is with school age children it would seem ie already at an age where they can reason and be reasoned with. Isn't that a factor here?

For the parents I know (myself included) that have occasionally smacked, that tends to be at a young age, as a 'sharp tap' to the hand or 'padded behind' because with that particular child a sharp 'No' or repeated, gentle restraint has not worked to prevent them attempting something potentially dangerous (with two of the kids, those and other methods worked).

We're talking single figures across both kids, neither of whom remember the incidents.

I am happy to consider that I was wrong to do so - I'm far from a perfect parent and have admitted my bias, I just thought that the 'age' part of Argumemnon's earlier point had been lost with the focus on frequency and believe both may be a factor.

 

[Ethan Thane Athen]

There's an attitude reset button on a kid's ass and sometimes it needs pressing. Once. More than that and you un-reset their attitude. You can't just press it an odd number of times. And the more times you press the reset the less effective it becomes.

I love that

 

[angrysoba]

I'm not asking for every permutation, mind you. But comparing _occasional_ spankings would have been crucial, in my opinion.



I learned that there are consequences to your actions. Getting told "no" is one thing, but I had taken things too far, and that was the penalty. To be clear: the spanking didn't wound me physically, but it was humbling, which was the whole point.

Just out of interest, how old were you at the time, and who administered the spanking?

I just wonder because although you are not asking for every permutation it remains the case that any anecdote can be used to support something.

As an example, my dad was caned by the teacher of his school the day he started. According to him, he was sitting in his classroom, and the teacher read his name from the register and then asked if he was the brother of David. When he said he was he was told to report to the teacher's office at lunch where he was hit with a can six times and told not to turn out like his brother. A lot of people are horrified by the apparent unfairness of this action but he always maintained it stopped him becoming like his brother as did the teacher.

Are we to accept this testimony for the efficacy of caning? And if not, why not?

 

[angrysoba]

Disclosure: I have smacked 2 of my four children, very occasionally so may be biased...

Your experience is with school age children it would seem ie already at an age where they can reason and be reasoned with. Isn't that a factor here?

For the parents I know (myself included) that have occasionally smacked, that tends to be at a young age, as a 'sharp tap' to the hand or 'padded behind' because with that particular child a sharp 'No' or repeated, gentle restraint has not worked to prevent them attempting something potentially dangerous (with two of the kids, those and other methods worked).

We're talking single figures across both kids, neither of whom remember the incidents.

I am happy to consider that I was wrong to do so - I'm far from a perfect parent and have admitted my bias, I just thought that the 'age' part of Argumemnon's earlier point had been lost with the focus on frequency and believe both may be a factor.

Corporal punishment was routine in schools until very recently. Some busybodies put a stop to it but look at what caning in schools achieved. It built the British Empire.

 

[angrysoba]

Would you please stop trying to combat gross oversimplifications and general stupidity with logic, rational thought, and (worst of all - gasp ) common sense?? Hypersensitive, self-righteous morons HATE that. As you're no doubt finding out. Props for effort to you and anyone else for trying I guess, but why spit into a hurricane?

One man's "common sense" is another man's ignorant witterings. For example, it used to be common sense that black people were closer to monkeys than white people. But one man's dark ages are another man's Good Old Days.

 

[Darat]

Corporal punishment was routine in schools until very recently. Some busybodies put a stop to it but look at what caning in schools achieved. It built the British Empire.

Most of the people that actually built the British Empire never even went to school....

 

[Belz...]

Just out of interest, how old were you at the time, and who administered the spanking?

I don't remember that well what age I was. Seven maybe. And it was my father.

I just wonder because although you are not asking for every permutation it remains the case that any anecdote can be used to support something.

Indeed. I'm not using it as a support as if it's evidence of anything except a counter to the blanket statement "spanking doesn't work".

 

[angrysoba]

I don't remember that well what age I was. Seven maybe. And it was my father.



Indeed. I'm not using it as a support as if it's evidence of anything except a counter to the blanket statement "spanking doesn't work".

Okay, fine.

I think the best way to put this from a skeptical point of view, is "there is no good evidence that spanking works."

Would you agree with that statement?

 

[Ethan Thane Athen]

Corporal punishment was routine in schools until very recently. Some busybodies put a stop to it but look at what caning in schools achieved. It built the British Empire.

I assume you're being sarcastic but I'm not clear what point you're trying to make - especially as my point was specifically about preschool.

To be clear, I'm not an advocate for smacking kids. What evidence there is, whilst imperfect, would indicate other methods are more effective. I also don't think that a tap on the hand or across a padded behind of a preschooler is a significant issue - though I accept my own bias in this, having done it once or twice. Could I have used other methods successfully? Quite possibly, I certainly have done on the majority of other occasions, including patiently restraining my son who was throwing a tantrum, for over an hour before he calmed down enough to reason with.

On the particular occasions where I or my wife have decided a smack is required, other methods did not seem appropriate or had been tried and failed - such as when my not yet walking or talking son thought it was great fun to climb on the TV and throw himself off, relying on us to catch him. We tried explanations, firm verbal rebukes, distractions, restraint, removing him from the room, putting obstacles in the way etc and nothing deterred him. Conscious that one day our concentration would slip (and he was a remarkably quick mover) we finally gave him a slap on the hand the next time he did it, had a few tears (upset rather than hurt) and he never did it again. Would something other than the smack have worked? Quite possibly, and I'd be interested to hear suggestions. Do I think this makes me a bad parent, no but I'm certainly not a perfect one and am perfectly prepared to accept correction /guidance where I have it wrong. Do I think my children ( the two that have been smacked) are the worse for it? Well, they don't seem to be (one is now 17 and the other, my aforementioned son, is 10).

Hmm longer than I meant and comes across a bit defensive - not meant to be...

 

[angrysoba]

Corporal punishment was routine in schools until very recently. Some busybodies put a stop to it but look at what caning in schools achieved. It built the British Empire.

I assume you're being sarcastic but I'm not clear what point you're trying to make - especially as my point was specifically about preschool.

To be clear, I'm not an advocate for smacking kids. What evidence there is, whilst imperfect, would indicate other methods are more effective. I also don't think that a tap on the hand or across a padded behind of a preschooler is a significant issue - though I accept my own bias in this, having done it once or twice. Could I have used other methods successfully? Quite possibly, I certainly have done on the majority of other occasions, including patiently restraining my son who was throwing a tantrum, for over an hour before he calmed down enough to reason with.

On the particular occasions where I or my wife have decided a smack is required, other methods did not seem appropriate or had been tried and failed - such as when my not yet walking or talking son thought it was great fun to climb on the TV and throw himself off, relying on us to catch him. We tried explanations, firm verbal rebukes, distractions, restraint, removing him from the room, putting obstacles in the way etc and nothing deterred him. Conscious that one day our concentration would slip (and he was a remarkably quick mover) we finally gave him a slap on the hand the next time he did it, had a few tears (upset rather than hurt) and he never did it again. Would something other than the smack have worked? Quite possibly, and I'd be interested to hear suggestions. Do I think this makes me a bad parent, no but I'm certainly not a perfect one and am perfectly prepared to accept correction /guidance where I have it wrong. Do I think my children ( the two that have been smacked) are the worse for it? Well, they don't seem to be (one is now 17 and the other, my aforementioned son, is 10).

Hmm longer than I meant and comes across a bit defensive - not meant to be...

No problem. Yes, I was being a bit sarcastic.

As it happens, I am going through the beginnings of parenthood myself. My son is a year and three months. I don't doubt that difficult times are ahead and that I will be tempted to use some kind of violence against him.

I have also taught children from the ages of almost the same age my son is now all the way up to university and beyond. Again, I have often been tempted to use violence, but I think that whenever I have considered it my reasons for doing so have been emotional rather than rational.

Anyway, sorry for being an arse.

 

[Ethan Thane Athen]

No problem. Yes, I was being a bit sarcastic.

As it happens, I am going through the beginnings of parenthood myself. My son is a year and three months. I don't doubt that difficult times are ahead and that I will be tempted to use some kind of violence against him.

I have also taught children from the ages of almost the same age my son is now all the way up to university and beyond. Again, I have often been tempted to use violence, but I think that whenever I have considered it my reasons for doing so have been emotional rather than rational.

Anyway, sorry for being an arse.

Heh, no worries and good luck with your parenting.

 

[angrysoba]

Heh, no worries and good luck with your parenting.

Thanks. I appreciate it. And I realize I was being very flippant given that you were only giving an honest appraisal of your own experiences.

Cheers!

 

[Belz...]

Okay, fine.

I think the best way to put this from a skeptical point of view, is "there is no good evidence that spanking works."

Would you agree with that statement?

Yes, that would follow from the lack of studies. There is no scientific evidence for its efficacy.

 

[angrysoba]

Yes, that would follow from the lack of studies. There is no scientific evidence for its efficacy.

Well, there have been studies, and they show that there is no efficacy.

 

[Darat]

Okay, fine.

I think the best way to put this from a skeptical point of view, is "there is no good evidence that spanking works."

Would you agree with that statement?

I think you have to take a step back even from there and ask first of all what is the outcome you want to achieve with spanking?

This is because since spanking is simply the method chosen to inflict pain on the child (as apparently it is the pain that will have the required effect) perhaps other ways of inflicting pain could be even more effective at achieving the outcome they are after?

 

[angrysoba]

I think you have to take a step back even from there and ask first of all what is the outcome you want to achieve with spanking?

This is because since spanking is simply the method chosen to inflict pain on the child (as apparently it is the pain that will have the required effect) perhaps other ways of inflicting pain could be even more effective at achieving the outcome they are after?

No, that's a stupid interpretation.

I disagree with spanking, but for you to suggest that spanking is done purely for causing pain for its own sake shows that you are not even prepared to discuss this dispassionately.