Ritual abuse convictions in the UK... real, or another hoax?

[Charlie Wilkes]

I concur - thanks for your input, Orphia.

Here's another interesting accusation of ritual abuse, validated by none other than Valerie Sinason.

To put it mildly, I find Valerie Sinason's claims highly suspect. I don't understand how she remains licensed.

Also, I hope this isn't viewed as a derail but i think it's relevant to the topic of false memories and confabulation. This article (really a video segment) discusses false memories that occur naturally as a result of critical illness. In my opinion, this is an amazing phenomena and perhaps yet another nail in the "repressed memory" coffin because it looks like the very same phenomena, just with a different origin.

How interesting. The Savile case has become an SRA case. This is good. If Valerie Sinason can leverage the notoriety of Savile to advance her views, skeptics can do likewise, backed by three decades of research and investigation. I will definitely keep an eye on this.

 

[sophia8]

While it does seem easy for someone to fraudulently claim to have been abused many years ago and gain a small amount of money this way in the UK, I am content with no time limit on sexual abuse cases and would oppose any movement to change this. Neither do I begrudge compensation to abuse victims, even if it's the case that some frauds may take advantage of the system.

As it stands I'm not entirely convinced that the motivation behind the claims being dealt with here is financial, assuming they're fraudulent.

You're forgetting something. Where there's a false claim of abuse, there's somebody who is falsely accused.
In the Bryn Estyn case, it seems reasonably clear that some of the complaints to police were fueled by expectations of financial reward, resulting in the conviction and imprisonment of at least one person who may well have been totally innocent.

 

[fitzgibbon]

Ya wanna make an omelette? Ya gotta break some eggs

Fitz

 

[Ellen Travis]

"Ritual abuse," however, involves a cluster of myths:

- Multiple personality disorder (which has lately been repackaged as dissociative identity disorder)

- Recovered memory

- Bizarre ceremonies with sexual overtones, involving multiple offenders and multiple child victims

Ritual abuse is similar to alien abductions, in that it involves extraordinary claims for which there is never any physical proof or independent corroboration.
.

I think that you are describing the indicators of false claims of ritual / satanic abuse in your post.

I fear that you may be throwing out the baby with the bathwater by deducing that the existence of the satanic panic and associated activities indicates that real ritual abuses never occur.

Sex and labour traffickers frequently use threats of black magic / juju / voodoo to terrify victims into complicity. Victims typically endure abusive rituals (often including violent and sexual assaults) as part of the grooming, recruitment and retention process.

Here is another example for you to consider.

A former member of a cult called Universal Medicine, describes the activities of the cult leader who claims to be able to heal women of various illnesses and emotional traumas (including rape) by massaging their breasts and genitals.

http://universalmedicineaccountabil...e-one-and-any-other-cult-member-who-feels-to/

http://universalmedicineaccountabil...front-for-deception-manipulation-and-control/

I am just wondering whether the activities of this particular cult leader qualify as "ritual abuse". While I cannot claim to know his intentions or motivations I think it unlikely that he is abusing the women in order to please a deity.

He is not acting alone in practising this kind of "healing". Vulnerable people all over the world including desperate people with terminal illnesses are visiting quacks who claim to heal them via intimate massage. The massages "burn bad karma", "awaken the kundalini", "activate the chakras" , whatever.

Here is another practitioner of this kind of abusive quackery, Wayne Clayton (apparently an expert in anal and vaginal reflexology). He claims that, via intimate tantric massage, he helped a cancer patient's breast grow back following a mastectomy.

*best have a sick bag at the ready before watching*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8eajlwJ_vA

IMO we need to clarify what we mean by ritual abuse, not least of all because some of the people who are promoting the myth of widespread SRA are also involved in exactly the kinds of practises I have posted about here.

Other posters have mentioned the unusual new age religious groups that a lot of IFS therapists (for example) and other therapists promoting the SRA myth belong to. If you dig a little deeper you will find some extremely disturbing facts about these religious groups.


If digitally manipulating the genital, rectal or breast area of a vulnerable person having convinced them that by doing so they will be cured from rape trauma / cancer/ MS / PTSD, via burning bad karma, cleaning chakras or some other BS is ritual abuse (and I believe that it is) then we have a very interesting situation in which some of the very same people who are screaming "ritual abuse" and pointing the finger at others are themselves perpetrators of ritual abuse.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I think that you are describing the indicators of false claims of ritual / satanic abuse in your post.

I fear that you may be throwing out the baby with the bathwater by deducing that the existence of the satanic panic and associated activities indicates that real ritual abuses never occur.

Sex and labour traffickers frequently use threats of black magic / juju / voodoo to terrify victims into complicity. Victims typically endure abusive rituals (often including violent and sexual assaults) as part of the grooming, recruitment and retention process.

Here is another example for you to consider.

A former member of a cult called Universal Medicine, describes the activities of the cult leader who claims to be able to heal women of various illnesses and emotional traumas (including rape) by massaging their breasts and genitals.

http://universalmedicineaccountabil...e-one-and-any-other-cult-member-who-feels-to/

http://universalmedicineaccountabil...front-for-deception-manipulation-and-control/

I am just wondering whether the activities of this particular cult leader qualify as "ritual abuse". While I cannot claim to know his intentions or motivations I think it unlikely that he is abusing the women in order to please a deity.

He is not acting alone in practising this kind of "healing". Vulnerable people all over the world including desperate people with terminal illnesses are visiting quacks who claim to heal them via intimate massage. The massages "burn bad karma", "awaken the kundalini", "activate the chakras" , whatever.

Here is another practitioner of this kind of abusive quackery, Wayne Clayton (apparently an expert in anal and vaginal reflexology). He claims that, via intimate tantric massage, he helped a cancer patient's breast grow back following a mastectomy.

*best have a sick bag at the ready before watching*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8eajlwJ_vA

IMO we need to clarify what we mean by ritual abuse, not least of all because some of the people who are promoting the myth of widespread SRA are also involved in exactly the kinds of practises I have posted about here.

Other posters have mentioned the unusual new age religious groups that a lot of IFS therapists (for example) and other therapists promoting the SRA myth belong to. If you dig a little deeper you will find some extremely disturbing facts about these religious groups.


If digitally manipulating the genital, rectal or breast area of a vulnerable person having convinced them that by doing so they will be cured from rape trauma / cancer/ MS / PTSD, via burning bad karma, cleaning chakras or some other BS is ritual abuse (and I believe that it is) then we have a very interesting situation in which some of the very same people who are screaming "ritual abuse" and pointing the finger at others are themselves perpetrators of ritual abuse.

Lots of kooks set themselves up as spiritual healers, with glib doctrines and glowing promises. They follow procedures that can fairly be described as rituals, and they end up exploiting troubled people.

Some of these charlatans are peddling variants of the SRA/MPD-DID/recovered memory mythology.

Significantly, however, these people document their beliefs and practices. What goes on behind closed doors may be radically different from what they tell the public, but nobody has to wonder who they are, or if they really exist. Nobody comes out of the woodwork after a couple of decades, claiming they have suddenly remembered, through hypnosis, that one of these fraudulent therapists abused them. We don't hear stories of a dozen unnamed children who somehow end up in a mysterious house where people are chanting and performing bizarre, quasi-sexual or overtly sexual rites.

"Ritual abuse," as it is being discussed in various threads on JREF, involves a specific pattern of claims that are not supported by any credible evidence. It is distinct from the vast range of spiritual and therapeutic practices through which vulnerable people are subjected to abuse.

 

[Ellen Travis]

Lots of kooks set themselves up as spiritual healers, with glib doctrines and glowing promises. They follow procedures that can fairly be described as rituals, and they end up exploiting troubled people.

yes

Some of these charlatans are peddling variants of the SRA/MPD-DID/recovered memory mythology.

A significant number of them are. Also a significant number of them claim that the body "remembers" trauma and that it is only by "energy medicine" (usually in the form of intimate / sexual massage) that the memories can be recovered.

Significantly, however, these people document their beliefs and practices. What goes on behind closed doors may be radically different from what they tell the public, but nobody has to wonder who they are, or if they really exist. Nobody comes out of the woodwork after a couple of decades, claiming they have suddenly remembered, through hypnosis, that one of these fraudulent therapists abused them.

IME most people are completely unaware of what is happening.


Why should victims recover memories of being abused by quacks? The whole point of the quacks' activities are to molest and brainwash (don't like the word but it will have to do until something better turns up) victims and to isolate them from their families in order to exploit them in various ways. Typically victims experience "body memories" during these sessions, sometimes of SRA, sometimes just of parental and / or sibling sexual abuse. The victim believes that the "memories" are real and gets drawn into isolation and exploitation. You do understand that this is how this works don't you?

We don't hear stories of a dozen unnamed children who somehow end up in a mysterious house where people are chanting and performing bizarre, quasi-sexual or overtly sexual rites.

not sure what point you are trying to make here. The SRA "memories" are of exactly that.

"Ritual abuse," as it is being discussed in various threads on JREF, involves a specific pattern of claims that are not supported by any credible evidence. It is distinct from the vast range of spiritual and therapeutic practices through which vulnerable people are subjected to abuse.

This is where I think you are getting it all wrong.

You are claiming that the indicators of "ritual abuse" are that there is no evidence for it. When provided with examples of ritual abuse you seem to say that yes they are rituals, yes they are abusive, but that they cannot be described as ritual abuse as there is evidence of them happening.

So your definition of "ritual abuse" is that it is "false ritual abuse" only and can never be real. Once there is evidence then it stops being ritual abuse and instead becomes something else.

I have no problem with your critical position towards Sinason, Ross, Lacter et al and I share your concerns about some of the recent UK trials and convictions.

I just think that we need to agree on a definition of ritual abuse and also to have clear terminology to describe the hysterical, fake stuff - I would have thought that something like "widespread organised satanic abuse" would be clearer.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

You are claiming that the indicators of "ritual abuse" are that there is no evidence for it. When provided with examples of ritual abuse you seem to say that yes they are rituals, yes they are abusive, but that they cannot be described as ritual abuse as there is evidence of them happening.

I don't dispute that some of what goes on in cults, fringe therapies and criminal enterprise could fairly be described as ritual abuse.

I'm merely stating that these activities are not what we have been discussing in this thread. We are discussing a class of unfounded allegations that conform to a specific narrative, with a couple of variations depending on circumstances.

In the US satanic panic of the 1980s, the narrative involved the ritual abuse of children by men and women who were not known to hold occult beliefs. Many of the accused worked in the day care industry. They were alleged to have orchestrated bizarre orgies, without ever arousing suspicion until the children "disclosed" the abuse to therapists or social workers acting at the behest of public authorities.

In the recent UK cases, the protagonists of the narrative are women who claim they were abused in secret rituals involving adults of both sexes, whom nobody suspected of such activity at the time.

Human sacrifice, especially of children and infants, is one element that pervades these stories. Mysterious, chanting people wearing hooded robes are another element. Secret rooms and locations constitute a third element.

This is the genre of mythology to which I am referring when I use the term "satanic ritual abuse."

 

[Ellen Travis]

I don't dispute that some of what goes on in cults, fringe therapies and criminal enterprise could fairly be described as ritual abuse.

ok, so we agree that ritual abuse exists in reality

I'm merely stating that these activities are not what we have been discussing in this thread. We are discussing a class of unfounded allegations that conform to a specific narrative, with a couple of variations depending on circumstances.

But we are not though are we? You mentioned the Colin Batley case, a trial that I have concerns about. FWIW it is very clear that very real and terrible abuses did take place. Even the people at SAFF acknowledge this. http://www.saff.ukhq.co.uk/kidwelly.htm The allegations of the victims were not even remotely unfounded so please be careful about what you write here. It can be devastating for survivors of sexual abuse to read that their allegations were "unfounded" and it is also just unhelpful for the debate that we are now engaged in for the issues to be presented falsely.

The problem that I have with the reporting of the case (much of the details of the investigation have not been published so I cannot comment on them) is the fact that real ritual abuses were presented as "satanic" and that some cases of sexual abuses were reported as "ritual" when there was no supporting evidence of this being the case. This not only does a disservice to the victims but it raises the possibility that the perpetrators could have evaded justice at the time or during some future appeal simply because of the gross misrepresentations of the case in the press - which presumably reflected the lack of knowledge and prejudices of the investigating bodies themselves.

The reporting of "black masses" was, as far as I could determine, completely unsubstantiated and extremely unhelpful to the case.

The report of a sexual "initiation" by Bately of a 15 year old was fairly consistent with victim reports of sexual initiations by various cult leaders with which I am depressingly familiar, as was the coerced prostitution of one of the victims.

This is the problem with the Kidwelly case, it seems that a small group of predatory and perverted individuals were involved in extremely serious criminal activities but that the investigation and reporting of such activities was coloured by sensationalism and inaccuracy.

We have to ensure that our discussion here remains fact based and accurate as to drift off into the land of assumptions, which is what you are doing IMO, is equally unhelpful.

In the US satanic panic of the 1980s, the narrative involved the ritual abuse of children by men and women who were not known to hold occult beliefs. Many of the accused worked in the day care industry. They were alleged to have orchestrated bizarre orgies, without ever arousing suspicion until the children "disclosed" the abuse to therapists or social workers acting at the behest of public authorities.

In the recent UK cases, the protagonists of the narrative are women who claim they were abused in secret rituals involving adults of both sexes, whom nobody suspected of such activity at the time.

Human sacrifice, especially of children and infants, is one element that pervades these stories. Mysterious, chanting people wearing hooded robes are another element. Secret rooms and locations constitute a third element.

This is the genre of mythology to which I am referring when I use the term "satanic ritual abuse."

I am very familiar with the satanic panic cases here in the UK, in the US and in other territories including New Zealand. I am well acquainted with the indicators of mass hysteria and false claims in relation to SRA.

The problem with the UK cases is that there is clearly evidence of serious abuses taking place, however the reporting of the cases has featured some of the features of false claims of SRA.

This has allowed the SRA/DID fanatics to claim that these cases were clear examples of organised satanic ritual abuse when the truth is a lot less clear cut.

IMO we should be extremely careful not to fall into the same type of discourse as the SRA/DID fanatics by misrepresenting the facts, which I feel is what you are doing, albeit with the best of intentions.

Working from a starting point that the victims claims were unsubstantiated, when this is not the case for all of the victims, is unhelpful IMO.

What is needed here is to carefully examine all aspects of these recent UK cases - at least as much as we are able given our limited resources, so that we can separate the wheat from the chaff.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

You mentioned the Colin Batley case, a trial that I have concerns about. FWIW it is very clear that very real and terrible abuses did take place.

It is not at all clear to me. The media coverage is vague. The only evidence seems to consist of accusations made by a number of women years after the crimes are alleged to have occurred. At least one apparently told of being forced to wear an upside-down crucifix, and people wearing robes, chanting "let all chaste women be despised" in front of a candle-lit altar.

That doesn't sound like the real world of sexual abuse. That sounds like the make-believe world of SRA.

Even the people at SAFF acknowledge this. http://www.saff.ukhq.co.uk/kidwelly.htm The allegations of the victims were not even remotely unfounded so please be careful about what you write here. It can be devastating for survivors of sexual abuse to read that their allegations were "unfounded" and it is also just unhelpful for the debate that we are now engaged in for the issues to be presented falsely.

The problem that I have with the reporting of the case (much of the details of the investigation have not been published so I cannot comment on them) is the fact that real ritual abuses were presented as "satanic" and that some cases of sexual abuses were reported as "ritual" when there was no supporting evidence of this being the case.

One of these women gave an interview to the Mirror, which quoted her describing what sounds very much like a classic SRA fable. Was she entirely misquoted in this regard?

This not only does a disservice to the victims but it raises the possibility that the perpetrators could have evaded justice at the time or during some future appeal simply because of the gross misrepresentations of the case in the press - which presumably reflected the lack of knowledge and prejudices of the investigating bodies themselves.

The reporting of "black masses" was, as far as I could determine, completely unsubstantiated and extremely unhelpful to the case.

Why then did the media report this? Did they fabricate the SRA angle entirely, even though it did not constitute any part of the prosecution's case?

The report of a sexual "initiation" by Bately of a 15 year old was fairly consistent with victim reports of sexual initiations by various cult leaders with which I am depressingly familiar, as was the coerced prostitution of one of the victims.

This is the problem with the Kidwelly case, it seems that a small group of predatory and perverted individuals were involved in extremely serious criminal activities but that the investigation and reporting of such activities was coloured by sensationalism and inaccuracy.

We have to ensure that our discussion here remains fact based and accurate as to drift off into the land of assumptions, which is what you are doing IMO, is equally unhelpful.

If I'm making false assumptions, please set me straight. Tell me what really happened, and describe the evidence that proves it.

I am very familiar with the satanic panic cases here in the UK, in the US and in other territories including New Zealand. I am well acquainted with the indicators of mass hysteria and false claims in relation to SRA.

The problem with the UK cases is that there is clearly evidence of serious abuses taking place, however the reporting of the cases has featured some of the features of false claims of SRA.

This has allowed the SRA/DID fanatics to claim that these cases were clear examples of organised satanic ritual abuse when the truth is a lot less clear cut.

IMO we should be extremely careful not to fall into the same type of discourse as the SRA/DID fanatics by misrepresenting the facts, which I feel is what you are doing, albeit with the best of intentions.

Working from a starting point that the victims claims were unsubstantiated, when this is not the case for all of the victims, is unhelpful IMO.

What is needed here is to carefully examine all aspects of these recent UK cases - at least as much as we are able given our limited resources, so that we can separate the wheat from the chaff.

Indeed.

 

[Ellen Travis]

It is not at all clear to me. The media coverage is vague. The only evidence seems to consist of accusations made by a number of women years after the crimes are alleged to have occurred. At least one apparently told of being forced to wear an upside-down crucifix, and people wearing robes, chanting "let all chaste women be despised" in front of a candle-lit altar.

That doesn't sound like the real world of sexual abuse. That sounds like the make-believe world of SRA.

Now this is an interesting response from you IMO. You start to doubt the accounts of a victim because of some of the features of this story resonate with some aspects of the satanic panic. However there are many reports of young women being indoctrinated into various cults and sects where chanting is a feature (chanting is as common as muck in abusive cults) as is the promotion of the idea that "chaste" behaviour is bad and sexual promiscuity is good is widely reports among victims of convicted cult leaders as well as victims of cult leaders who are wanted by the police for sexual crimes. It is extremely common in fact.

Just because victims report abuses with some features of the satanic panic does not mean that they are lying or deluded.

It is, IMO, unhelpful to have prejudices one way or the other.

One of these women gave an interview to the Mirror, which quoted her describing what sounds very much like a classic SRA fable. Was she entirely misquoted in this regard?

Why does it have to be a matter of the victim being misquoted?

It seems to me that the possibilities are

a) her allegations were false, for whatever reason, and the trail was a miscarriage of justice

b) her allegations were all completely true and the convictions were just

c) The victims allegations were true but the press reports were sensationalist and exaggerated the ritual abuse elements of the story

d) the allegations were for the most part true but some elements were exaggerated / amplified in the telling or by "therapeutic" influences.

e) some combination of the above


I feel that is helpful to examine the victims' accounts and the press reports in as much detail as possible to establish what might have happened. However I feel it is unhelpful to assume that just because some aspects of the story resonate with the satanic panic that the victims' accounts are false in some way.

The chanting thing is an obvious example. Allegations of SRA include reports of chanting but so do many credible reports of victims of cults and sects. The presence of chanting does not indicate a false report of SRA, neither is it proof of ritual abuse. It is simply a report of an activity that features prominently in both real and false allegations of ritual abuse.

Why then did the media report this? Did they fabricate the SRA angle entirely, even though it did not constitute any part of the prosecution's case?



If I'm making false assumptions, please set me straight. Tell me what really happened, and describe the evidence that proves it.

I suggest that we proceed as follows:

Here is a link to the Mirror report that you say indicates false allegations of SRA

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/teenager-forced-into-a-satanic-sex-cult-904455

Please be specific about which elements of the report indicate that the victim account is false / deluded / indicative of the satanic panic.

Here is another news report from the Daily Mail

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ty-running-cul-sac-sex-cult-seaside-home.html

Please read this carefully and also specify what elements of the report indicate that the victim account is false / deluded / indicative of the satanic panic.

If there are elements in either story that you believe indicate that the victim accounts are credible and true I would be interested to hear your opinion.

I think that this would be a good place to start and let us proceed with an intention of sceptical curiosity and see where we get to.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I suggest that we proceed as follows:

Here is a link to the Mirror report that you say indicates false allegations of SRA

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/teenager-forced-into-a-satanic-sex-cult-904455

Please be specific about which elements of the report indicate that the victim account is false / deluded / indicative of the satanic panic.

This:

“I realised he wasn’t just Uncle Colin any more. He was a leader of a cult and I had to obey his every command.”

A few days later, Catrina was abused by both her aunt and uncle.

After that strangers visited the house every Sunday for cult meetings and rituals.

They would dress in purple silk robes and read from The Book of The Law, written by occultist Aleister Crowley, known as “The Great Beast”.

“They would stand before an altar covered with burning candles and a tarantula in a tank and then Auntie Elaine would preach from the book chanting things like, ‘Let all chaste women be despised’. It was really bizarre.”

On Halloween, their holiest day, Catrina was given a black tunic to wear. Worshippers swayed as Batley, the high priest, held court.

Here is another news report from the Daily Mail

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ty-running-cul-sac-sex-cult-seaside-home.html

Please read this carefully and also specify what elements of the report indicate that the victim account is false / deluded / indicative of the satanic panic.

Here:

In the lounge, a white cloth would be draped over a table to form an altar with candles and burning incense; nearby were tanks full of snakes and Satanic symbols. Those present would put on hooded robes and wear upside-down crucifixes.

There would be chanting, which would always end in group sex.

Children, boys and girls as young as 11, were also ‘initiated’ – repeatedly sexually abused in other words – during ‘Black Masses’ at Batley’s home. There were at least five victims that we know of, but police believe there could have been many more.

Yet these vile activities did not disturb the neighbours. Why? Because they were involved too.

If there are elements in either story that you believe indicate that the victim accounts are credible and true I would be interested to hear your opinion.

I think that this would be a good place to start and let us proceed with an intention of sceptical curiosity and see where we get to.

We won't proceed far unless you know more than I do about this case. All I know is that the descriptions I have excerpted are similar to what has been alleged in many US criminal cases, every single one of which, to the best of my knowledge, has been discredited upon close examination. Entire neighborhoods do not gather on Sunday to worship Satan and molest children in a room with a snake tank.

HOWEVER, I do not question the existence of bizarre cults whose members do things that are flat-out crazy and very much against their own best interests. Jonestown and Heaven's Gate come to mind. In every case I know of, the cult has been in the hands of one leader who has the requisite charisma to control his followers. Maybe Batley was like that. You tell me.

 

[Ellen Travis]

This:

“I realised he wasn’t just Uncle Colin any more. He was a leader of a cult and I had to obey his every command.”

A few days later, Catrina was abused by both her aunt and uncle.

After that strangers visited the house every Sunday for cult meetings and rituals.

They would dress in purple silk robes and read from The Book of The Law, written by occultist Aleister Crowley, known as “The Great Beast”.

“They would stand before an altar covered with burning candles and a tarantula in a tank and then Auntie Elaine would preach from the book chanting things like, ‘Let all chaste women be despised’. It was really bizarre.”

On Halloween, their holiest day, Catrina was given a black tunic to wear. Worshippers swayed as Batley, the high priest, held court.



Here:

In the lounge, a white cloth would be draped over a table to form an altar with candles and burning incense; nearby were tanks full of snakes and Satanic symbols. Those present would put on hooded robes and wear upside-down crucifixes.

There would be chanting, which would always end in group sex.

Children, boys and girls as young as 11, were also ‘initiated’ – repeatedly sexually abused in other words – during ‘Black Masses’ at Batley’s home. There were at least five victims that we know of, but police believe there could have been many more.

Yet these vile activities did not disturb the neighbours. Why? Because they were involved too.

So, just to be really specific about this, are you claiming that all of the material that you have quoted indicates false claims of SRA or just some aspects?

Please be specific as I would like to consider and address each element at a time.

We won't proceed far unless you know more than I do about this case. All I know is that the descriptions I have excerpted are similar to what has been alleged in many US criminal cases, every single one of which, to the best of my knowledge, has been discredited upon close examination. Entire neighborhoods do not gather on Sunday to worship Satan and molest children in a room with a snake tank.

HOWEVER, I do not question the existence of bizarre cults whose members do things that are flat-out crazy and very much against their own best interests. Jonestown and Heaven's Gate come to mind. In every case I know of, the cult has been in the hands of one leader who has the requisite charisma to control his followers. Maybe Batley was like that. You tell me.

I do not know more about this case than you, however I do no more about criminal cults than you do, so I may be able to add something interesting into the mix.

Are you saying that you were unable to find any indicators that real abuses happened from the news reports quoted? If so I suggest that you read them again carefully before replying.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

So, just to be really specific about this, are you claiming that all of the material that you have quoted indicates false claims of SRA or just some aspects?

Please be specific as I would like to consider and address each element at a time.

I do not know more about this case than you, however I do no more about criminal cults than you do, so I may be able to add something interesting into the mix.

Are you saying that you were unable to find any indicators that real abuses happened from the news reports quoted? If so I suggest that you read them again carefully before replying.

That's not what I have said. My position is this: I don't know any more about the Batley case than what I have read in the tabloid media. I'm not in a position to say whether it's true, partly true, or false. What I do know is that a lot of US cases involving similar stories, although they were accepted by juries, turned out to be completely false when they were carefully investigated.

So, I am skeptical, but that does not mean my mind is made up. I'm open to new information showing that the story reported in the Daily Mail and the Mirror has a sound basis in fact. But if you don't know any more than I do about this case, we're at an impasse.

 

[Ellen Travis]

Just to put my cards on the table re this

My interest and experience is in criminal cults, especially cults involved in health care frauds / quackery, child abuse and organised trafficking in human beings. I am also interested in the satanic panic as a manifestation of collective hysteria.

One of the reasons that I am so enraged with all of the "therapists" working with MPD/DID and SRA/ recovered memories is because their BS has created such a high level of incredulity around claims of ritual abuse that many sceptical people dismiss the very idea of ritual abuse as if it was merely a collective hysterical fantasy.

This could not be further from the truth unfortunately.

With the Colin Batley case I am appalled by the media coverage which was sensationalist and lacked important details. However, just as some elements of the case brought up doubts and concerns about similarities to the satanic panic, other reported elements of Bately's MO were very familiar to me from my knowledge of other abusive cults.

I am not claiming that I know anything one way or another. I am not attempting to convince anyone that the convictions were just or unjust.

My main interest in this thread relates to the impact of the constant stream of SRA and MPD/DID related nonsense has on the collective minds of rational people to the extent that survivors of real ritual abuses may find their claims dismissed by people who think that they know better.

I am also extremely concerned about the challenges facing people who survive ritual abuses. As it stands it seems to me that they will probably be faced with the bleak choice between unbelieving rationalists and extremely dangerous therapists who claim to be "experts" on ritual abuse and who are most likely to abuse them all over again.

Now, getting back to Colin Bately and his associates.

Here is another news account, I would be interested to hear from you whether this account changes your perception of the case.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/3500970/Satanic-sex-beast-brainwashed-me.html

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Now, getting back to Colin Bately and his associates.

Here is another news account, I would be interested to hear from you whether this account changes your perception of the case.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/3500970/Satanic-sex-beast-brainwashed-me.html

Yes, it does change my perception. It doesn't cite any corroborating evidence, but it suggests a believable scenario. Batley may have created a minor-league personality cult to manipulate women and girls so he could have sex with them. That has lots of precedents. People use a religious or political framework to present themselves as having unique powers and insights, or they promote a miraculous therapy that only they understand. Batley may have used occult symbols and rituals.

I live in the US Pacific Northwest, a woodsy region that is ideal for gurus to isolate their followers and run amok. We have had lots of them. Brother XII in British Columbia relieved his disciples of their money before bedding the women and working the men half to death. Linda Hazzard promoted a starvation cure through which she killed herself and many other people.

So, yes, bad cults exist. But the worst of them tend to be centered around one individual. Most do not involve a horizontal network with clandestine operatives in many places, as described by SRA proponents.

One question that occurred to me... is Batley really the father of this child? That is something that can be conclusively established one way or the other. Do you know if it has been established?

 

[Ellen Travis]

Yes, it does change my perception. It doesn't cite any corroborating evidence, but it suggests a believable scenario. Batley may have created a minor-league personality cult to manipulate women and girls so he could have sex with them.

boys too according to the reports, although from what I could make out the boys were abused by the females or coerced into having sexual contact with other victims.

That has lots of precedents. People use a religious or political framework to present themselves as having unique powers and insights, or they promote a miraculous therapy that only they understand. Batley may have used occult symbols and rituals.

I live in the US Pacific Northwest, a woodsy region that is ideal for gurus to isolate their followers and run amok. We have had lots of them. Brother XII in British Columbia relieved his disciples of their money before bedding the women and working the men half to death. Linda Hazzard promoted a starvation cure through which she killed herself and many other people.

So, yes, bad cults exist. But the worst of them tend to be centered around one individual. Most do not involve a horizontal network with clandestine operatives in many places, as described by SRA proponents.

IME, while cults do tend to centre around one or sometimes a few powerful individuals, it is not uncommon for them to have clandestine agents and operatives in many territories internationally, especially in the cases where the cults are just one element in large transnational organised criminal networks, as is sometimes the case with cults involved in THB.

One recent example is the cult raided in Mexico recently Defensores de Cristo / Defenders of Christ. There are very serious allegations involving sex, labour and organ trafficking, rape and sexual assaults, torture, kidnapping and child abuse. The ringleaders are currently in jail awaiting trial and it will be interesting to see how it develops. From what I could ascertain from google the cult leaders used a veneer of Christianity combined with various esoteric / occult scams to con people out of money over the internet but also to pimp out and otherwise abuse female followers.

Another predatory guru, Konstantin Rudnev, a cat torturing, woman beating, child raping, drug trafficking pimp was recently sentenced to 11 years in a Siberian penal colony for raping and otherwise sexually abusing his followers.
Rudnev's cult "Ashram Shambala" still has all of its websites open for business and IMO the trial demonstrated that Rudnev was just one visible pimple on the body of a much larger criminal enterprise that will continue to operate without him. The cult trains young females in "arts of the goddess" - basically sexual skills, lap dancing, pole dancing, belly dancing, seduction skills and everything young women need to learn in order to become highly successful sex workers. "Initiations" feature prominently within the cult and according to the Russian press are sexual in nature and sometimes involved child abuse and / or bestiality.

The point that I am trying to make is that Batley's "cult" (for want of a better word) exhibited many typical features of criminal cults involved in trafficking of human beings.

This does not of course mean that it was a trafficking cult, or even any kind of cult, but what it seems to me to be is a criminal enterprise with cultic window dressing.

I do not believe that Batley was in charge of a "satanic cult". I think it more likely that he, like many other predators and criminals, terrified his victims with threats of "black magic" in order to better manipulate and control them.

One question that occurred to me... is Batley really the father of this child? That is something that can be conclusively established one way or the other. Do you know if it has been established?

I cannot answer your question as I do not know the answer, however it seems to me that the paternity of the child could fairly easily be proven and I cannot imagine that the police would not have taken the necessary steps to prove paternity given the prominence and seriousness of the case.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

boys too according to the reports, although from what I could make out the boys were abused by the females or coerced into having sexual contact with other victims.

IME, while cults do tend to centre around one or sometimes a few powerful individuals, it is not uncommon for them to have clandestine agents and operatives in many territories internationally, especially in the cases where the cults are just one element in large transnational organised criminal networks, as is sometimes the case with cults involved in THB.

One recent example is the cult raided in Mexico recently Defensores de Cristo / Defenders of Christ. There are very serious allegations involving sex, labour and organ trafficking, rape and sexual assaults, torture, kidnapping and child abuse. The ringleaders are currently in jail awaiting trial and it will be interesting to see how it develops. From what I could ascertain from google the cult leaders used a veneer of Christianity combined with various esoteric / occult scams to con people out of money over the internet but also to pimp out and otherwise abuse female followers.

Another predatory guru, Konstantin Rudnev, a cat torturing, woman beating, child raping, drug trafficking pimp was recently sentenced to 11 years in a Siberian penal colony for raping and otherwise sexually abusing his followers.
Rudnev's cult "Ashram Shambala" still has all of its websites open for business and IMO the trial demonstrated that Rudnev was just one visible pimple on the body of a much larger criminal enterprise that will continue to operate without him. The cult trains young females in "arts of the goddess" - basically sexual skills, lap dancing, pole dancing, belly dancing, seduction skills and everything young women need to learn in order to become highly successful sex workers. "Initiations" feature prominently within the cult and according to the Russian press are sexual in nature and sometimes involved child abuse and / or bestiality.

The point that I am trying to make is that Batley's "cult" (for want of a better word) exhibited many typical features of criminal cults involved in trafficking of human beings.

This does not of course mean that it was a trafficking cult, or even any kind of cult, but what it seems to me to be is a criminal enterprise with cultic window dressing.

I do not believe that Batley was in charge of a "satanic cult". I think it more likely that he, like many other predators and criminals, terrified his victims with threats of "black magic" in order to better manipulate and control them.

A number of groups in Latin America claim to operate in the service of an ideology or populist cause, but they also engage in criminal enterprise for profit. It sounds like that may be the case with the Defenders of Christ. I'll pay attention to the story.

Urban gangs in the US reinforce a group identity with symbols and rituals, and many of their members are involved in some kind of criminal enterprise.

I suppose all organized crime involves rituals. So where is the dividing line between criminal enterprise and cults? It's murky.

If this is your area of interest, I can see why you find the DID/MPD/SRA stories to be a problem. There is plenty of real evil in the world. People don't need to invent imaginary crimes and imaginary evil. But they do.

 

[Ellen Travis]

A number of groups in Latin America claim to operate in the service of an ideology or populist cause, but they also engage in criminal enterprise for profit. It sounds like that may be the case with the Defenders of Christ. I'll pay attention to the story.

This is an extremely common MO for OC networks involved in THB, health care fraud and real estate fraud.

These OC networks are especially active in Mexico and South American territories, Russia, the Ukraine and Eastern Europe but are also highly active in countless territories internationally including the UK and the US.

Unsurprisingly they seem to have origins in former communist countries and there are many indicators that when communism ended powerful people in the secret and security services who lost their jobs and income simply moved into organised crime by forming religious cults and sects.

Thus it is unsurprising that the real people behind these networks understand how to influence and manipulate people at a deep level. The skills from one profession are simply transferred to another.

This also explains why the long overdue conviction of Konstantin Rudnev for appalling sexual crimes has had no impact whatsoever on Ashram Shambala's criminal activities in Russia or any other territory. Russian websites that have been exposed in the Russian media as being recruitment fronts for Ashram Shambala are still open and offering to teach women and girls the "arts of the goddess". It is business as usual for the many actors who carry on their disgusting and cruel activities with apparent impunity and possible / probable complicity of state officials.

Of course communist countries had an interesting relationship with psychiatry. Political dissidents and other people considered a nuisance to the state would frequently find themselves with a diagnosis of serious mental illness and confined to mental institutions.

So it interests me that these criminal networks have recruited so many psychotherapists internationally and that some of the very psychotherapists that promote the SRA/MPD/DID stuff also belong to unorthodox spiritual movements that appear to be involved in serious criminal activities.

Part of the problem IME, at least here in the UK, is that we have a very vocal and powerful movement within the UKCP and in the psychotherapy professions generally who resist mandatory state regulation / HPC registration for psychotherapists. Many of the prominent people involved in the anti-state regulation movement have a background in experimental theatre, the human potential movement, EST, Esalen, Osho / the Rajneeshees, sexual encounter groups and other hippy stuff. Many are involved in ridiculous fake shamanism and treat their patients to such treatments as astrological therapy, past life memory recovery, ayahuasca retreats and other similarly unconventional and potentially damaging interventions.

It is a horrible, horrible mess.

Urban gangs in the US reinforce a group identity with symbols and rituals, and many of their members are involved in some kind of criminal enterprise.

I suppose all organized crime involves rituals. So where is the dividing line between criminal enterprise and cults? It's murky.

I agree that the lines can be murky and that definitions and categorisations can be difficult.

There is still much work to be done in this respect.

If this is your area of interest, I can see why you find the DID/MPD/SRA stories to be a problem. There is plenty of real evil in the world. People don't need to invent imaginary crimes and imaginary evil. But they do.

IME the SRA circus is not quite what it seems. Not only does it muddy the waters for researchers who encounter people falsely believing themselves to have been abused by Satanists but the connections between the SRA promoters and the OC networks involved in cultic crimes is too close for comfort. There is much more going on than meets the eye.