Regarding Franko...

[Max560]

Why wouldn't an omnipotent being be necessary? Did humans create the universe?

JK

No direct answer here either then.

Have you found someone claiming that humans created the universe? If so please provide a link to their quote.

Why wouldn't an omnipotent being be necessary? Sounds to me like you're asking me to prove a negative. Sorry, no dice.

 

[Franko]

A-Theist Fool: (Imbecile)

No Jedi, as far as I know humans did not create the universe. If I don't know what did it... I say "I don't know what did It" I also don't assume it was ever "created" It may have always been......

For a person who “doesn’t know” the answer you seem awfully certain that “God didn’t do it” you religious fruitcake.

In your case, the lack of knowledge of what happened leads you to create an explanation.

Kind of like you create “free will” so you can pretend that there is no “god”?

Its nothing new, Different people generate different creation stories.

Yeah, explain to us again how “Universes magically appear” is a more “Scientific” answer???

Thats why there are so many gods hanging around. Your creation myth is no better or worse than any of the others....

Yeah … speaking of which hypocritical moron, why don’t you tell us all some more fairy tales about your magic “free willy” powers?

 

[Jedi Knight]

No Jedi, as far as I know humans did not create the universe. If I don't know what did it... I say "I don't know what did It" I also don't assume it was ever "created" It may have always been...... In your case, the lack of knowledge of what happened leads you to create an explanation. Its nothing new, Different people generate different creation stories. Thats why there are so many gods hanging around. Your creation myth is no better or worse than any of the others....

My only "claim" is that humans did not create the universe. Humans are governed against their will by TLOP--they have no free will.

Now, it is fully acceptable to speculate (be skeptical) about the origins of the universe. Since no one has the answer, [insert the reason here] and it is just as comparable as any other [insert reason here] as long as it doesn't defy common sense logic.

JK

 

[wraith]

Humans created "tlop" to explain how things in this universe work. It was just giving a name and definition to something like we do with everything.

No one fell from a building until an equation was formed?

 

[wraith]

Has anyone argued this to be the point? If so, please provide a link to their quote.

Remember this exchange?

Jedi says: No, you are restricted by TLOP.

Max: No, TLOP simply describe the nature of the universe.

Are you saying that youre not controlled by TLOP?

I am argueing for free will, and I say that the present is based on the past. I also claim that my past decisions shaped my present status. You are implying that free will means the ability to do absolutely anything one can imagine. Again, provide some links which show that anyone holds this belief.

If youre saying that the present is based on the past, then just where is your free-will?

Nope. TROM do nothing but describe the Monopoly universe in all aspects.

Then you will have to exclude everything that TLOP controls. Youre pretty much left with nothing then...

Virtual dice would suffice. You may supply the source code for the random dice and the hardware to run it. That should simplify your task.

The TROM should control the virtual dice?
That doesnt solve the problem at all...youre just assigning TLOP to TROM

I dont think you can answer my question either.

what question was that??

 

[Franko]

J3K: (he crazy)
Humans created "tlop" to explain how things in this universe work. It was just giving a name and definition to something like we do with everything.

The Wraith:
No one fell from a building until an equation was formed?

Yeah, I guess the Earth was actually Flat and Motionless until Galileo and Copernicus worked their “magic” and made in a Sphere which started orbiting the Sun?

Of course since the present isn’t actually based on the past (according to the Religion of A-Theism anyway) maybe there never really was a Galileo or Copernicus to begin with?

Maybe they were all just figments of your imagination?

 

[Max560]

Remember this exchange?

Jedi says: No, you are restricted by TLOP.

Max: No, TLOP simply describe the nature of the universe.

Are you saying that youre not controlled by TLOP?



If youre saying that the present is based on the past, then just where is your free-will?



Then you will have to exclude everything that TLOP controls. Youre pretty much left with nothing then...



The TROM should control the virtual dice?
That doesnt solve the problem at all...youre just assigning TLOP to TROM



what question was that??

Fatalism means no choice right? You are claiming that the rules that govern the universe are the mechanism through which fatalism works right?

If this is so, and if there is no such thing as free will, then the future can be predicted, provided that you know enough about the past, present, and TLOP right?

I am willing to accept accurate prediction of the future as serious evidence in the favor of Fatalism.

I am trying to make this easy for you by proposing a simple experiment:

Tell me how I will fare in the next 10 games of monopoly that I play. Tell me what place I finish, and what square I occupy at the end of each game.

I have tried to simplify things for predicting the future by limiting the experimental universe to a board game with rules that govern all aspects of the game-TROM: the grand unification theory of monopoly. I have limited this little thought experiment to a universe which is much simpler than the one described by TLOP. I have given you sole control over the dice.

Armed with this, are you able to tell me how I will fare in those next 10 games? If not, why not? What extra resources do you require?

Really, all I want to know is if you can predict my fate. I am trying to make it easy for you.

 

[wraith]

Fatalism means no choice right? You are claiming that the rules that govern the universe are the mechanism through which fatalism works right?

If this is so, and if there is no such thing as free will, then the future can be predicted, provided that you know enough about the past, present, and TLOP right?

I am willing to accept accurate prediction of the future as serious evidence in the favor of Fatalism.

I am trying to make this easy for you by proposing a simple experiment:

Tell me how I will fare in the next 10 games of monopoly that I play. Tell me what place I finish, and what square I occupy at the end of each game.

I have tried to simplify things for predicting the future by limiting the experimental universe to a board game with rules that govern all aspects of the game-TROM: the grand unification theory of monopoly. I have limited this little thought experiment to a universe which is much simpler than the one described by TLOP. I have given you sole control over the dice.

Really, all I want to know is if you can predict my fate. I am trying to make it easy for you.

Are you saying that you want me to predict the outcome of a monopoly game? You know, I could if I had ALL the info. Do you want me to control TLOP?
Maybe if my Fate is "strong" enough, I may control you muhaha

besides, if you want human players to play, then only TROM will not suffice.

 

[Max560]

Are you saying that you want me to predict the outcome of a monopoly game? You know, I could if I had ALL the info. Do you want me to control TLOP?
Maybe if my Fate is "strong" enough, I may control you muhaha

besides, if you want human players to play, then only TROM will not suffice.

Ok so you need more information.

What I am trying to determine is what that extra information might be. I belive that the outcomes of the games are derived from a combination of TROM, the roll of the die, and the decisions that each player makes. I say those decisions are a result of free will, you say they are a result of fate.

Compelling evidence of fate would be specific, accurate predictions as I have outlined, as opposed to predictions like "I predict that money will change hands", or "I predict that all of the players will pass go, and collect $200", and so on.

I think we can agree that the choices that each player can make at each turn are limited to either a few (buy 1 house or 2?), or none (pay $14).

Can you suggest any other changes to simplify this little thought experiment such that the future can be predicted?

 

[wraith]

If I blind fold you, I can pretty much guarantee that I will win

 

[Franko]

What I am trying to determine is what that extra information might be. I belive that the outcomes of the games are derived from a combination of TROM, the roll of the die, and the decisions that each player makes. I say those decisions are a result of free will, you say they are a result of fate.

Compelling evidence of fate would be specific, accurate predictions as I have outlined, as opposed to predictions like "I predict that money will change hands", or "I predict that all of the players will pass go, and collect $200", and so on.

Apparently you don't understand the difference between Fatalism and Omniscience. Fatalism simply means that ALL things happen as part of a logical sequence (a chain of cause and event) based on a consistent set of logical rules.

Omniscience on the other hand is the ability to perceive the future outcome of an event prior to the event actually occuring. Only a "God" has the power of Omniscience, so unless you believe that the Wraith is a "God", then I very seriously doubt he will be able to demonstrate Omniscience for you.

Instead why don't you just demonstrate your magic "free will" powers for us. That will prove Fatalism is False.

 

[Max560]

Apparently you don't understand the difference between Fatalism and Omniscience. Fatalism simply means that ALL things happen as part of a logical sequence (a chain of cause and event) based on a consistent set of logical rules.

So If you have all the rules, and all the info, is this enough to predict the future? Not necessarily by yourself or W. IE, could you feed all the Info, rules, etc into a computer of sufficient power to actually generate future outcomes?

 

[LW]

So If you have all the rules, and all the info, is this enough to predict the future? Not necessarily by yourself or W. IE, could you feed all the Info, rules, etc into a computer of sufficient power to actually generate future outcomes?

If we suppose that knowing everything about the universe allows us to predict the future with 100% accuracy, there's still one problem left on our way to omniscience:

Where would you store that data?

 

[Franko]

Max560:
So If you have all the rules, and all the info, is this enough to predict the future?

If you know all of the numbers, and the rules of addition and subtraction, can you add or subtract ANY two numbers for me?

Not necessarily by yourself or W. IE, could you feed all the Info, rules, etc into a computer of sufficient power to actually generate future outcomes?

We (consciousnesses) are the “computers” of “sufficient power”. The more self-aware you become the more “sufficient power” you accumulate.

 

[hammegk]

We (consciousnesses) are the “computers” of “sufficient power”. The more self-aware you become the more “sufficient power” you accumulate.

Didn't you once warn me about statements like those?

 

[Franko]

Did I Hand?

You'll have to refresh my memory.

 

[hammegk]

Yeah, it's been awhile.

Hypothetical: Would there be more atheists in a Dumbness, or in an Egotism?

 

[Franko]

Man, that's a tough call Mr. Hand ...

But I'm gonna go with ... Egotism.

 

[c4ts]

Humans didn't create TLOP. You can't be serious. If you are, that is careless thought.

Since humans did not create TLOP, what did?

JK

Humans created TLOP, and they did so through discovery and pattern recognition. That is why there are sometimes things that break the laws of physics, and why the laws are subject to revision when that happens. Wasn't that what the quantum physics revolution did?

 

[hammegk]

Humans created TLOP...

"Map" not equal "Territory".