Franko:
Why should I believe your "superior" metaphsical belief system based on absolutely no evidence?
MRC:
Why, you shouldnt. First of all, my belief system is not metaphysical, secondly, one of the few dogmas of my belief system is that nobody should believe in anything without evidence.
So what if your evidence for believing you have “free will”? And if you do not have any evidence for “free will”, then how can you claim that there is no evidence for “God”?
Franko:
What about Fatalism and Determinism. They seem like direct evidence for God to me? How do you refute this? Why do you believe that there is more evidence for "free will" then there is for "God"? If you honestly believe this then why have you repeatedly refused to provide a side by side comparsion of the evidence?
MRC: (Bug in the code)
I quite agree, Fatalism and Determinism don't make sense at all without a god. However, Fatalism and Determinism have some difficulties in the face of empirical evidence (you have still ignored my challenge to explain a simple phenomenon like phosphorescense in a deterministic way).
Actually I did explain it. But why are you trying to shift the burden onto me? If you are claiming that phosphorescence is evidence of Indeterminism, then please explain what you mean? Why am I required to read your mind?
Just for the record though … are you seriously contending that phosphorescence is not controlled/governed by the Laws of Physics? Once AGAIN you are confusing Determinism with OMNISCIENCE! Why don’t you go and check one of your inerrant Dictionaries for the well documented Differences in the meaning of those two terms!
Franko:
I don't see any evidence that YOU have "free will'. I don't see ANY evidence that Indeterminism is True. I don't see any evidence that there is a "YOU" to even make decisions, "YOU" are nothing but a physical brain made up of atoms (chemicals) and obeying the natural laws of chemistry (TLOP).
MRC:
If you dont see an evidence of a "ME" why do you keep trying to communicate with me? If you dont believe I can make decisions, why do you keep telling me what I should do?
Actually I ask you a lot of questions about what You think, and
why you think it. Probably exactly what you would have programmed me to do if you got stuck in this algorithm for too long.
Franko:
Besides if your decisons are not made algorithmically (deterministically, like a computer), then how exactly are they being made? That makes no sense what-so-ever, and you have repeatedly refused to address this point? Why are you so embarassed to posts your beliefs?!?!
MRC:
I dont know, Frank. All I know is that observations show that the world is not Deterministic.
Congratulations MRC, You manage to contradict yourself in only Two sentences. If you “don’t know”, then you “DON’T KNOW” that the world is NOT Deterministic.
Besides, ALL of the evidence shows that the world is clearly Deterministic.
You explain it too me MRC. Explain the traffic light. How does it work in your universe. You approach the red traffic light. You
clearly perceive and recognize that it is red.
Now, I say that based on your previous experiences you quickly extrapolate:
1) STOP = Good
2) GO = Bad
But you seem to be saying that even in situations when You
clearly perceive and recognize that the traffic light is red, that occasionally you will not base your decision on the past, and “randomly” run the red light because of the magic of Quantum mechanics?
MRC, you are looking more and more like a dancing monkey.
Franko:
MRC, why would the Universe make us, and then force us to watch a show? It is not like we can actually change anything that is going to happen, because it is all cause and event as decreed by TLOP and the Initial State.
MRC:
Thats your cosmology, not mine. Do try not to mix our beliefs up, it makes you seem insincere.
Okay, so the only difference I see in our cosmologies at this level of detail is that I believe the “giant sky program” is completely deterministic based on a fixed initial dataset, whereas you believe that some of the variables in the program are randomly generated.
You know a little programming MRC – don’t you? Are you telling me that it is impossible to write a computer program with random variables? That would give you your magic “Indeterminancy” … unfortunately for you it would still make you an Algorithm, and there would still be a bigger more conscious Algorithm controlling You.
Franko:
What’s the YOU making the decisions Han-job?
MRC:
I dont know.
Well how can you claim to have “free will” then? The atoms in your physical brain obey TLOP exactly the same as the atoms in the ham sandwich you ate for lunch. Ergo your brain has just as much “free will” as a (toasted) ham sandwich.
Franko:
You never could explain that? Aren't YOU just atoms obeying TLOP?
MRC:
I dont know.
Yet Christians and Theists everywhere are idiots for thinking similarly?
Franko:
How can TLOP control your brain and be less conscious then YOU?
MRC:
The same way as a wall can control me and be less conscious than me.
What makes you think that wall would even exist if the Dungeonmaster hadn’t told you where it was? Besides TLOP controls you regardless of the presence of Walls.
Franko:
How can TLOP control your brain and be less conscious then YOU?
MRC:
The same way as the rules of baseball can control the players and be less conscious than them.
Ohhh, so now you are claiming that the “rules of baseball” magically appeared out of the void JUST LIKE TLOP? Because I always thought that “the rules of baseball” were created by a CONSCIOUSNESS!?!? I thought you were going to give us an example of a non-conscious creation controlling you?
Were you ever emotionally moved by a film, or a book? You do realize that when a book, or film communicates an idea (a meme) to you, it is really just communicating by proxy for the original consciousness who transmitted the meme. Take this post for example … it’s not me talking to you directly … it’s TLOP relaying to you what I have transmitted.
Franko:
I guess the same way that YOU control CAR while being less conscious then CAR? Or is it more like your BRAIN controls your LEGs, ergo LEGS are more conscious then your BRAIN (for you that's prabably True).
MRC:
I think not.
I don’t know MRC … I think your legs put up a much stronger argument.
