Rape

[Mr.Kitchen]

I wish I had been mugged instead.

If i had been mugged then I wouldn't have panic attacks, I wouldn't hate myself, adn i wouldn't feel like I did something wrong. I would have graduated this semester instead of likely having to drop a class or two including senior project.

AS I can tell it has nevered happened to you, since you don't know what it is like. I hope it never happens to you, I wish noone else knew what this was like. Instead a shockingly large amount of the female friends I have it has happened too.

I have filed charges and I think the trial is set for then 28th.

 

[renata]

That's not an accurate assessment of my comments. This is what I said:

"I just wish a certain faction of feminists would stop being such manhaters." I was indeed referring to extremists. I did not label you or attempt to place yourself in that group. I was pre-empting anyone's calling me a misogynist, which is something I anticipated from my comments about lingering paternalism.

Apparently, my invocation of the term "feminist" set off bells within you as you self-indentify with the term. That's fine. That doesn't make you a member of that certain faction that I find to be man-haters. I am referring to extremists like Andrea Dworkin, a truly hateful person if there ever was one, and Catherine MacKinnnon, an equally hateful and truly twisted person whom does not deserve to teach law at a prestigious university. She holds despicable views about men.

It appeared to me you talked somewhat sarcastically about "frail women", and and precious "virtue", and need to defend their honor, and double standards in male/female rape, and "feminist BS". After my reply, you mentioned "feminist rhetoric we've been fed for the last 20 years". So it seemed to me there was a bit of a sore point about feminist rhetoric, or BS- not just extremists.

Please do. I must not have read that article. I do not remember it at all.

Posted in a prior post.

I agree only to the extent that true victims of violent rape must often experience a great deal of trauma which is unique in kind among the traumas suffered by the entire set of victims of violent crimes. It is not necessarily unique in degree. That is not what I intended to convey in my earlier remarks which you took as general agreement with your remarks.

I have known victims of date rape who suffer flashbacks, betrayel, and are unable to date or trust for lengthy periods of time. I dealt with a victim from a violent stranger rape, who was over it in weeks, she was happy it was someone she did not know, because it meant she never had to see him again, it was a fluke. Generalizations are very difficult here.

And if you did not agree with me, so be it. Not the first time, not the last

Victims of non-violent rapes (yes, there are such victims, despite what Dworkin and MacKinnon maintain, not all rape or sex is violent) does not necessarily experience any fear for their lives. Indeed, I suspect most do not. I think you exaggerate the fear many supposedly have about contracting AIDS or other serious STDs. Apparently, the alleged victim in my recent case never even got tested, as she never mentioned it at trial or in my pretrial interview with her. The victim in the television show who was "pissed off" never mentioned fear of STDs or AIDS or any kind of fear at all in her trial or in her private discussions with the DA on camera. I find those glaring omissions at odds with your claim that it is common to rape victims in general.

You take one victim, whose alleged assailant you defended, succesfully, and use her as an example of most victims of rape? Forgive me if I do not take that example as adequate generalization. In my training, and in my experience I found that STDs, pregnancy is one of the major fears. At least it was at the time I was doing the peer counseling. It may have changed, and I am afraid I do not have studies to back it up.

Again, in my opinion, this is proving Segnosaurus' point.

I will toss out a wild speculative theory I just thought of for the sake of argument here. I wonder how much of our culture's outrage about rape is due to its repressive attitudes about sex in general, about how precious a young woman's virginity supposedly is, and about our general shame and guilt about sex in general.

Most rape victims have nothing to do with virginity, as I am sure you know. And I am not sure how you think it has to prove Seismosauraus (not Segnosaurus!) point. I merely, again point out the different psychological and physiological effect the crime has on the victims of different crimes.

Imagine if in our culture sex were no more special than driving. If that were the case, then would we regard rapists as no more disdainful as another driver who deliberately cuts us off in heavy traffic?

It's an extreme comparison, to be sure. Nevertheless, my point is that perhaps rape is so traumatic because we build it up to be so. We teach our little girls that their virtue is the most precious and valuable thing they own. Boys, on the other hand, are taught that sexual conquest is the most manly pursuit, and that being sexually promiscuous is a sign of success as a man. Those mixed messages are in inherent conflict, especially in the teenage years when hormones are raging and curiosity is at its peak and boys and girls mix unlike at any other time in their lives.

The powerful emotions sex can evoke, including the powerful emotions evoked by the sexual act itself, can lead to intense feelings and profound confusion among its participants. It should come as no surprise that many young men will misunderstand signals, that some of them will let their hormones get the better of them and their senses of decency. It should come as no surprise that some of them will attempt to dominate in the implied competition for sexual conquest among their peers, and in so doing be callous or indifferent to the desires or feelings of their female targets of conquest.

It should come as no surprise that some girls will inevitably get hurt and/or abused by some of those boys. It should come as no surprise that some girls who may have given off plenty of "go" signals later regret getting caught up in the moment and rationalize it away as date-rape.

Does our sexually repressive culture breed some rapes under some of the circumstances I've described?

(This is not meant to ignore the fact that rape exists in nearly every human culture, and that it exists among many higher species of animals, including the other great apes).

Just some food for thought, if anyone cares to continue with this inflammatory subject.

I am thinking about this. How does this theory apply to homosexual rape, you think?

I also understand that some date rape is of course signal crossing, morning after regret. But it seems a little strange that the discussion is frequently steering that way. Why is it that sometimes when someone says rape, some people think- horror, violent rape, and some think- date rape, mixed signals, feminist rhetoric. I am just curious.

It seems, AS, that we are talking on two parallel tracks. My thoughts, based on my experience are on one, yours on the other. My questions, which you took as insults, although you know my high regard for you stemmed from a surprise about that. Can you tell me about that?

 

[renata]

Thanks, Renata. I like and respect you very much as well, as you know. I must admit that I was taken aback by what I felt were unwarranted attacks and insults directed at me. I was hurt by your lashing out at me.

I'm sorry if I overreacted, and if I insulted you. I accept your apology to me.

AS

Did you miss my prior apology, on page 2?

And I accept yours, as well. I guess, like I said before, I did not understand why we were talking past each other, and it is an emotional subject. But two friends can talk about even inflammatory subjects. Calmly. Slowly. Taking deep breaths. I guess those who wanted to see a fight between has have to make other plans

But Tricky and Impy...traitors...you I do not forgive! Siding with the guy in the Spiderman suit and not with the girl with the naked avatar. Short sighted, my friends, very short sighted.....

 

[Chareen]

What should be the punishment for a rapist? I am thinking death. What are your thoughts on the matter?

Death is an easy way out for them. The victim has to live with the horrid memory.

Here is my solution, Graphic but I think it would be effective. It would only work for men assilents though.

Convicted rapists and child molestors should have their testicles nailed to the floor of a vacant building, given a dull knife and the building should be then be lit on fire. Seems like an adequate punishment to me.

 

[AmateurScientist]

I wish I had been mugged instead.

If i had been mugged then I wouldn't have panic attacks, I wouldn't hate myself, adn i wouldn't feel like I did something wrong. I would have graduated this semester instead of likely having to drop a class or two including senior project.

AS I can tell it has nevered happened to you, since you don't know what it is like. I hope it never happens to you, I wish noone else knew what this was like. Instead a shockingly large amount of the female friends I have it has happened too.

I have filed charges and I think the trial is set for then 28th.

I do not wish to diminish your trauma or pain. I do not think it fair of you to assume what I know or not, however.

I could just as easily accuse you of not knowing what it is like to be locked in jail without bond for a year waiting trial for something you didn't do. I won't. I've lived that pain and anguish with many of my clients. It's agonizing.

I strongly dislike it when persons assume the moral high ground and an air of self-righteousness. I'm not accusing you of doing that, but you might be coming close. I just hope you recognize that accusations can be made easily sometimes, and defending one's self against them can sometimes be next to impossible, especially in cases of rape or child abuse or molestation. In such cases, very often the accusation alone, even without a conviction, is enough to ruin the accused's life forever.

If you were violently raped or otherwise abused and taken advantage of, then I sympathize and wish you a speedy recovery, both physically and emotionally, from your pain. I hope that you get justice in the courts, if that's what you seek.

I do not appreciate being targeted for accusations of heartlessness or compassionlessness due to my stance here and due to my profession. Defense attorneys are not responsible, legally or morally, for the actions of their clients.

I have been attempting in this thread to get others with a bloodlust against those accused of rape to understand that very often there is another side to making an accusation. False accusations are a very real occurrence and a very real problem. Their consequences can be just as devastating to their victims, or even perhaps more so, as rape can be to its victims. Having seen those consequences up close, perhaps I have a better appreciation of them than many others.

Perhaps you understand and appreciate that point, or perhaps you do not.

AS

 

[Suezoled]

You had ALL DAY to glean that off the internet. You provided ZERO landmarks for 12 hours after I asked for ONE.

Well, looking past the fact you were already calling me a liar (and calling me Hellcat before then, even), you did get your answer. As for verifying what I said... go to it skippy.

 

[renata]

It is impossible not to get emotional. It is a very difficult thing to talk about. As a person who likes and respects you, I do not find fault.

Thank you

I cannot deny that such a thing is true. I have family experience with a female who was sexually abused (though not raped) as a young child and has never gotten over it, though she is fifty years old now. Believe me, I do not dismiss the long term effects of such crimes. I also agree that society tends to look askance at women who cry rape, as if they somehow deserved it. I find that callousness abhorant.

But I also know rape victims who (as AS point out) have gotten over it quite easily. One of these is also in my family. Perhaps you are right that the numbers say that rape is harder to overcome than mugging. There may be many reasons for this, including the tendency to distrust rape claims and of course the tactic by lawyers to discredit rape victims. This is a great wrong of society, but I do not know any way to eliminate it without depriving others of the right to defend themselves. It is one of those terrible "no win" situations.

You are correct. As I mentioned earlier, to Toni, one lie casts a shadow on everyone. One false accusation of rape casts a shadow on all women who claim they are victims and an all men accused of rape, rightly or wrongly. And there is no way to fix it. But if we could be a little more compassionate, not go into- most date rape is made up- all men are predators mentality, I think it would be best. The fact is, women who are victims are afraid to share their stories, even with their loved ones, because they are afraid they will be cast in an unfavorable light. I heard many stories, freely offered of people who were in car accidents, or who were mugged. Other than close friends, or in my capacity as peer counselor no woman told me of abuse.

You are correct, and I did not mean to marginalize your point. It is true that rape is a crime that is almost always against females. Anybody can be mugged, but I have rarely heard of a man being raped by women, and if it happened, I cannot imagine that it would be a particularly traumatic experience.

But most of us have had various traumatic experiences of one kind or another. We get over them and move on. I pity those who can't move on, but I do not give them an exception because of the particular experience. Admittedly, some people can handle things better than others. Life is funny.

The women who get over it, are strong and I think it is wonderful. But the women who don't deserve care and respect as well.
I do not think I asked for an exception. The question was, why it tends to be treated as a more serious crime, I answered my thoughts on it.

I have been in both situations and my response was similar. I think possibly one of the worst things about being a rape victim is the fear that others will treat you differently. Fear that they will treat you like sluts or will overprotect you. I think you should treat them with compassion, but make clear that you love/like them no less because of their ordeal. I know that this is not the way the world treats them, so that is not a universal solution. But you do what you can.

Ah, you got the right answer...as far as these things go. Men tend to either smother or distance and view victims with suspicion. One girl told me her boyfriends refused to touch her and have sex with her, fear of STDs. Rational, maybe, but very hurtful to her. This, of course, does not extend to boyfriends. Victims of abuse, rape have many fears about stepping forward, reactions by relatives, friends, not to mention legal system. And frequently they are justified. A friend of mine had some slight molestations as a child by a close relative. No serious abuse, no penetration. She decided to tell her mother when she was 19-20. Her mother was in shock, said she would have noticed. The girl produced the relative, who confessed under pressure. Mother was devastated, as it reflected badly on her parenting skills. A few years later, mother confonted the girl and said she thought about it a lot, and decided the girl made it all up to show she was a bad mother, and tricked the relative into confessing. Relative happily retracted the confession, under mother's pressure. Girl is devastated. If she can't get her own mother to believe her, who will? Relative, by the way is not even on the mother's side.

 

[Mr.Kitchen]

I am not accusing you of being heartless just underinformed. And yes you are right it is terrible it is to be falslly accussed. Hopefully the legal system can sort it out.

I am not reacting to the defense of the accussed. I am just trying to let you know why what happened to me is different than being mugged.

The man who did it to me was not armed and he did not threaten violence yet i still froze up. The fact that io couldn't protect myself plagues me.

But you are right that a fasle accussation can ruins someones life.

 

[renata]

I strongly dislike it when persons assume the moral high ground and an air of self-righteousness.

I agree with you entirely on this, which is why I dislike it when people bring personal stories to supplement their points in very sensitive threads like this.

However, emotionally manipulative as the question may be....is it fair to ask, whether given the same degree of physical damage a person would prefer to be raped or mugged?

I think most people would choose mugging. I would. Would that give us some insight into Seismosaurus' question?

By the way, I still want us to discuss whether punishment should be in proportion to the suffering of the victim. (Did you miss that post of mine on page 2?) It is a bit of a drift, but an interesting one, I think.

 

[AmateurScientist]

It appeared to me you talked somewhat sarcastically about "frail women", and and precious "virtue", and need to defend their honor, and double standards in male/female rape, and "feminist BS". After my reply, you mentioned "feminist rhetoric we've been fed for the last 20 years". So it seemed to me there was a bit of a sore point about feminist rhetoric, or BS- not just extremists.

I'm just going to respond to this part for now, as it is time for bed.

Here is where the discussion took an unfortunate nasty detour:

Originally posted by Segnosaur

editorial note to Renata--note this is in fact Segnosaur, not Seismosaurus!

On a related topic... I have wondered, what is it that makes people treat sexual assault as a more serious crime than say a mugging, where the actual physical damage is approximately equivalent? I'm not saying that sexual assult shouldn't be treated as a more serious crime; I am just curious about the reasons why it would be. Is it a biological thing (a mechanism to prevent against children from unsuitable mates), or is it more of a society thing? (Some holdover from the days when people thought women were 'frail' things that should be protected.)

(Now, here is my original response, which I believe is quite responsive to his parenthetical question at the very end):

That's a very fair and legitimate question. I tend to think it's probably a holdover from more paternalistic days.

(this next part is not meant to be sarcastic at all, but rather a restatement of the old, paternalistic line about attitudes towards women. I'm answering his rhetorical question about our modern attitudes about rape being a holdover from that era.)

Yes, women are frail, their "virtue" is precious, and their honor is to be defended.

Now, don't you think the above view is patronizing towards women? I do. It was the commonly held view at the turn of the century and well into the 20th Century in most Western societies.

****************

(This next part is simply a contrast to paternalism. Our remaining paternalism in culture regards boys as able to fend for themselves and not as sexual victims. It is in fact a double standard, as we do not regard young girls in the same fashion. This is to say we don't give the same credit we do boys.)

Witness the relative lack of outrage over the "rape" of a 14 year old boy by his adult woman teacher.

(The relative lack of outrage over the teacher--I can't remember her name now--was indeed remarkable. There were many who called for a lenient sentence for her. I seriously doubt anyone would have called for the same had the gender roles been reversed. Do you? This next bit is meant to demonstrate that our holdover paternalism is inconsistent with feminist slogans such as those below. If women are so strong, then why are they ever victims of rape by men? Shouldn't they be able to kick their asses? Clearly, the second claim is not true, nor is it true that anything women can do men can do better. They are equally preposterous claims. That's why I called it feminist BS. It simply isn't true. How many women have bench pressed 600 lb.? How many men have given birth to a child? See? Stupid. BS. Calling such ridiculous claims BS doesn't make me a misogynist, now does it? Nor does it make me unsympathetic to rape victims, or to victims of any other violent crimes.)

Yeah, it's a cultural holdover. It's completely inconsistent with the "I am woman; hear me roar" and "anything a man can do a woman can do better" feminist BS.

 

[AmateurScientist]

I agree with you entirely on this, which is why I dislike it when people bring personal stories to supplement their points in very sensitive threads like this.

In my defense, I brought up my friend's mugging at gunpoint only as a counterexample to show that a victim of a mugging is nothing to sneeze at. One can be in genuine fear for one's life. Many mugging victims end up dead. I didn't care to research to look for any other counterexample or any statistics. Call me lazy.

My own mugging, by contrast, contained no degree of fear at all, as I was too drunk. I thought it an appropriate contrast to my friend's. I suffered no ill effects of it other than losing my wallet and being slightly annoyed on my cab ride home. When I awoke the next morning hungover, for several minutes I was convinced that I had simply dreamt the mugging. I was only annoyed to discover the truth solely because I had to reconstruct the contents of my wallet. No trauma at all. Ever since, it has been little more than a silly, somewhat embarrassing story for me to tell on rare occasions.

I certainly didn't intend to elicit any sympathy with my own silly story. It wasn't much of a mugging from my perspective, althought legally it was definitely a felony robbery.

AS

 

[renata]

I'm just going to respond to this part for now, as it is time for bed.

Here is where the discussion took an unfortunate nasty detour:

Good night. I was utterly sure it was Seismosaurus! I thought I checked! Hmmmm... That does not bode well, but at least you did not gloat

Actually, I felt the dicussion took a nasty turn when you responded to my response to Seismo..I mean Segnosaur. My first post was merely a response to him, with a line agreeing that male rape is just as outrageous as female rape, and thinking otherwise is hypocrisy. After your commentary about the rhetoric, we exchanged several...well more sharply worded posts than usual. But luckily, we respect each other enough to quickly get out of that.

(Now, here is my original response, which I believe is quite responsive to his parenthetical question at the very end)

That's a very fair and legitimate question. I tend to think it's probably a holdover from more paternalistic days.

(this next part is not meant to be sarcastic at all, but rather a restatement of the old, paternalistic line about attitudes towards women. I'm answering his rhetorical question about our modern attitudes about rape being a holdover from that era.)

Yes, women are frail, their "virtue" is precious, and their honor is to be defended.

Now, don't you think the above view is patronizing towards women? I do. It was the commonly held view at the turn of the century and well into the 20th Century in most Western societies.

Ah, but the way you stated it, appeared sarcastic. If you say you meant something different than what I read into it, I accept it and apologize. Thanks for the clarification.

****************

(This next part is simply a contrast to paternalism. Our remaining paternalism in culture regards boys as able to fend for themselves and not as sexual victims. It is in fact a double standard, as we do not regard young girls in the same fashion. This is to say we don't give the same credit we do boys.)

Witness the relative lack of outrage over the "rape" of a 14 year old boy by his adult woman teacher.

(The relative lack of outrage over the teacher--I can't remember her name now--was indeed remarkable. There were many who called for a lenient sentence for her. I seriously doubt anyone would have called for the same had the gender roles been reversed. Do you?

I am not sure I recall the case you mean. Is it the case where the teacher had the affair with the boy, went to prison, was let out, had sex with him again, and went back to prison? I think it is abuse of chil, trust and awful. Hence my comment that not everyone is a hypocrite. So far we agree.

This next bit is meant to demonstrate that our holdover paternalism is inconsistent with feminist slogans such as those below. If women are so strong, then why are they ever victims of rape by men? Shouldn't they be able to kick their asses? Clearly, the second claim is not true, nor is it true that anything women can do men can do better. They are equally preposterous claims. That's why I called it feminist BS. It simply isn't true. How many women have bench pressed 600 lb.? How many men have given birth to a child? See? Stupid. BS. Calling such ridiculous claims BS doesn't make me a misogynist, now does it? Nor does it make me unsympathetic to rape victims, or to victims of any other violent crimes.)
Yeah, it's a cultural holdover. It's completely inconsistent with the "I am woman; hear me roar" and "anything a man can do a woman can do better" feminist BS.

I think you misconstrue feminist slogans. Feminists know women are not as physically strong as the men, of course, and will always be at a disadvantage when it comes to rape. However, what they try to do is even up the playing field as much as possible. No, women can't bench press 600 lbs. But they can take self defense, learn to kick a man in the crotch, and do many other things. Will it always save them, or even save them many times? Of course not. But will it save a woman sometimes? Yes. Just because there are many biological differences, does not mean women everywhere should throw in the towel and abandon all hope. Fight as much as you can, when you can, I say.

I do not think "anything a man can do a woman can do better" is feminist BS. Remember the origins of those slogans. Don't you think they gave hopes to millions of girls, who are now athletes, doctors, lawyers? Without the movement, it would not have happened. Yes, it is quite obvious women cannot do some things men can, and men cannot do some things women can. But those slogans are not useless. They did something extraordinarily useful- inspired a generation of women to educate themselves, and to enter careers previously almost closed to them.

However, although I appreciate your clarifications, I want you to review your post and see the negative impression it gives out along with your subsequent points. Please see how it could be interpreted as anti feminist and unsympathetic. Hence my puzzlement.

 

[Cleopatra]

Ok. Mercutio and I are flaming each other for fun, why don't you join us to that innocent thread about shared vacation?

 

[Cleopatra]

Amateur Scientist

I thought that this thread would die in nonsense that's why yesterday I decided to take my time in replying you. Now the discussion took a different path.

Thanks for your detailed reply to my question.After reading this second account regarding your case, I think that I was right to congratulate you, it seems to me that it was one of those cases that the representation made the difference. You saved this man's neck.

It wasn't the fact that your client was acquitted that made me say that sometimes Justice isn't served. How can somebody suggests that Justice is served when a whole system is unable to see something that it was obvious to 12 people only? One can do nothing but wonder.

Also, I didn't suggest that your system is broken because I am not in the position to judge it but if I have read your post correctly it seems that litigators tend to interpret law quite differently than the "common" people.

In Greece, apart from the Jury, the three judges that represent the State in a trial have the right to vote too. In 8 out of 10 cases their vote differs from the vote of the Jury and I find this interesting and I feel that in those cases something goes wrong too.

Who misses something? The Jury or the Judges?

BTW. What will happen now to the woman who accused your client? Will she face charges of false accusations? In Greece with a unanimous verdict from the Jury she would be in real trouble.

Regarding the issue of rape, I will agree with you that rape isn't more serious a crime that other forms of assault.

Renata without wanting to play the psychologist I think that a man who has been mugged can experiene the same level of stress and feel the same humiliation with a victim of rape.

If a man finds himself in a position that he is not able to react then what he faces is an issue of power. Men are expected to be able to protect themselves and it's kind of humiliating to find themselves in a position that are not be able to do anything.

I think that the feelings of anger that victims of both crimes experience are similar.

Amateur Scientist

When I was at the University I was involved in Politics. I belong to the conservative right( nothing to do with the conservative right in the States!!) and I am an Israelite in a socialist antisemitic country A couple of times in late afternoons that we stayed at the Campus to discuss about things I found myself surrounded by guys that they were shouting things about my mother ( mostly) and they just wanted to scare me of course,they didn't even touch me.

I have to confess that in both cases it passed through my mind that if I could choose between being raped and being battered I'd choose the later. Why? Probably because as you pointed out rape is related with the sex taboos and because what follows a rape is very unpleasant for the victim.

Also, those incidents didn't bother me at all and they didn't leave anything " behind", on the contrary, they made me feel like a hero maybe because we are conditioned to believe that in politics, violence is part of the game.

So, I agree with you that it's a matter of conditioning mostly.

Renata since I started practicing Law I feel ashamed for the way many woman use this crime in order to clear up their differences with men. I wish they knew how much they harm with this attitude the real victims of rape. Interestingly, although the Greek society is very patriarchal men rarely question the sincerity of a victim. Women are those that pose more questions I have observed that in the Police Stations.

On the other hand I will disagree with AS and others that rape is a grey area.

I don't like this term when we are describing crimes. When it comes to a crime there are no grey areas. The fact that it's difficult to define if the crime of rape was committed doesn't make it a grey area, I prefer to say that this crime is different in nature than other crimes.

What distinguishes rape from either kinds of assault though is the fact that the victim has to prove first that it didn't ask for it something that a victim of mugging is never asked to.

From what I read none seems to disagree on that.So, I don't see where AS and you disagree

 

[tamiO]

Oh and New York, Upstate, as you insist: I work in Albany about 2 exits off the State University of New York Albany (SUNY Albany) to us locals.

I am going to be up in that area soon enough and would love to meet you for a cup of something.

 

[Nikk]

You had ALL DAY to glean that off the internet. You provided ZERO landmarks for 12 hours after I asked for ONE.

Further, we now need someone from that area to verify what you wrote, late as it was. (Not one of your sock puppets of course.)

What's the point of asking a question if you are in no position to assess the truth of the answer?

You could ask her to take a lie detector test of course .

 

[American]

What's the point of asking a question if you are in no position to assess the truth of the answer?

You could ask her to take a lie detector test of course .

No offense on my lawyer remark. I didn't mean you! I assumed there would be someone else in the area who could confirm for us.

 

[Nasarius]

Well I'm in Buffalo...really not close enough, though

 

[clk]

No offense on my lawyer remark. I didn't mean you! I assumed there would be someone else in the area who could confirm for us.

American has officially lost his little "fight" with Suezoled.
http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29156

My guess is that American will still claim that Suezoled is Hellcat, and not admit defeat....typical Conservative tactics.

 

[American]

American has officially lost his little "fight" with Suezoled.
http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29156

My guess is that American will still claim that Suezoled is Hellcat, and not admit defeat....typical Conservative tactics.

You're suck a f'ing idiot, you little turd. Linking to that page does not show loss of any fight, nor imply anything of "conservative tactics". It just shows what an idiot you are. A liberal idiot, but an idiot first and foremost.