Rape

[clk]

I have good ethics and basic moral values.

I nominate this quote for the "Joke of the Year Award".

 

[Tony]

In Alabama, in the early 70's. I was fifteen and working a night job. I had missed the bus after work and was walking home through a "bad" part of town. I was tackled then surrounded by three black men. They looked like they were about to beat me up, and I said "peace, brother". That seemed to take them aback. They paused and said "you got any money?". I gave them everything I had (seven dollars). They took it and left. It was extremely traumatic for a teenage liberal (Yep. Even back then), and it made me rethink a lot of things. In the end I realized that they only wanted my money, but they would have probably done whatever it took to get it. My "peacemaking" and willingness to part with my money probably saved me from being beaten... or worse.

So I was one of the ones who was not severely traumatized by the mugging, but I can still see them in my mind, circling me, looking very dangerous and hateful. I wonder often what would have happened if I had done anything else.

Im glad you made it out ok. Take comfort in knowing those guys are either dead, in jail, or living in abject poverty.

 

[renata]

I have nothing but respect and friendship for AS, and I think he knows that- as well as Tricky and ImpyTimpy. If three people I like and respect tell me I am getting emotional, perhaps I am.

But explain this to me- if I told you, for example, that I had been a victim of child abuse, rape, pogrom threats, stoning, being chased and tank bearing down on me, would my arguments have more weight? Would that make you argue differently? Or make you change your mind? Why are the case stories about AS's friend, AS, or even you supposed to change your mind? I am not naive, I know a few things about muggings, and about rape, and about different variations thereof. We are not talking about particular stories, but about trends and averages.

With all respect, Tricky, the only people I saw marginilized here are feminists and "manhaters". When I locate the New Yorker article, I will post some info from it- some history about consent laws in the States, and about what the feminists did to change that. I sympathize with victims of mugging. I sympathize with victims of rape. I merely answered a question as to what sets victims of rape apart- they have to fear for their life longer, consequences are graver, they have the shame, they tend to be marginalized. And, it appears AS agrees with me that rape is unique. Nobody says there is no nightmares, fear from victims of muggings. I acknowledge that.

But as much as I hate appeal to emotion, imagine if a loved one is mugged, versus raped. Imagine your reactions as to how you would relate to her- would there be a difference to how you talk to her? And then you might know how the victims feel, and why there is a difference.

 

[American]

I nominate this quote for the "Joke of the Year Award".

Yeah much thanks to all you blockheads for not backing me up! I love fighting one-man battles while you watch and do nothing.

That was the most egregious liar we've had since Hellcat, and chances are it was none other than Hellcat herself. All you guys did precisely dick to challenge her, despite obvious flaws in her posts. Instead you made me do all the dirty work fighting the little liar.

Thanks!

 

[Dancing David]

"Those frat guys raped me" reminds me of my friend... his name is John Smith.

But when I read you talking about killing and revenge fantasies, I was truly concerned.



My sincere apology if my skepticism is misplaced or completely wrong. Good night.

Zounds, you are even bettering yourself at being a jerk!

What an ass you are.

You are the reason people get away with rape American, this is the only crime where everybody gangs up and goes against the victim.

As I told Jedi, be sure to tell your mother, your sister and every womean you love that her charges of rape are false.

Be sure to tell every child who was ever assaulted that it was thier fault.

You have **** for brains, it is no wonder that you don't like people. You are just such ****.

Fart!

 

[Dancing David]

Yeah much thanks to all you blockheads for not backing me up! I love fighting one-man battles while you watch and do nothing.

That was the most egregious liar we've had since Hellcat, and chances are it was none other than Hellcat herself. All you guys did precisely dick to challenge her, despite obvious flaws in her posts. Instead you made me do all the dirty work fighting the little liar.

Thanks!

Gee, you look as happy as a dog with a turd in his mouth.

Even if it was hellcat, you support rape. Why don't you get a t-shirt that states how you think that rape is cool.

Fart!

 

[American]

Gee, you look as happy as a dog with a turd in his mouth.

Even if it was hellcat, you support rape. Why don't you get a t-shirt that states how you think that rape is cool.

Fart!

Fag.

 

[Suezoled]

That was the most egregious liar we've had since Hellcat, and chances are it was none other than Hellcat herself. All you guys did precisely dick to challenge her, despite obvious flaws in her posts. Instead you made me do all the dirty work fighting the little liar.

Let me repeat myself:
1.) Yes I was raped.
2.) Yes I has tried to commit suicide.
3.) yes I had cancer.
4.) Yes I live in Upstate New York.
(not neccesarily in that order)

I said 1-3 because I was through the Hellcat ID kit that these were earmarks that Hellcat left. I wanted to point out for future reference regular people have had these things. I said I had these things because it was similar to what Hellcat apparently said, but didn't think that would make me Hellcat.

I guess, this Hellcat person really did poison the well.

Why don't I answer American's questions? Because I won't answer to bullies, people who harass and accuse and have already decided I'm someone they think I am because they think so.

And since when is it anyone's duty to back you up, American?

 

[Tricky]

Im glad you made it out ok. Take comfort in knowing those guys are either dead, in jail, or living in abject poverty.

Why the hell would I take comfort out of that? Why wouldn't I (or by some strange twist of fate, you) hope that they outgrew this phase and became productive citizens? Perhaps in some O'Henry story, they would wind up becoming lawmen.

I don't want revenge. I don't want anyone dead or in jail or living in abject poverty, not even those who attacked me. Yes, at the time, I wish they had been caught and punished appropriately, (yes, I did call the police), but I'm not a vengeful person.

In my fantasy, I think that they heard my "peace brother" and they felt ashamed and never did such a thing again. Okay, I admit it is a fantasy. But maybe, just maybe, they realized that not all whiteys were hateful. Is that so impossible?

 

[Dancing David]

Thank you for sharing your story and answering my questions.

Thank You Tony for being a voice of reason, in this cess pool of a thread.

Hey American a Jerk!

Do you do more than assault women.

Hey schmuck , pull your head out of your ass and do your research, you will find that there are many ways that a rape kit can become un-useable in court.

Like veidence being left uattended for even a minute while in the ER.
Contamination of evidence is ofetn a problem because some police officer abused the eveidence and sneezed in it.
If you ahd half a brain you would go **** youself and do the world a favor.

remember to call your grandmother and tell her how you support rape.


Fart!

 

[AmateurScientist]

With all respect, Tricky, the only people I saw marginilized here are feminists and "manhaters".

That's not an accurate assessment of my comments. This is what I said:

"I just wish a certain faction of feminists would stop being such manhaters." I was indeed referring to extremists. I did not label you or attempt to place yourself in that group. I was pre-empting anyone's calling me a misogynist, which is something I anticipated from my comments about lingering paternalism.

Apparently, my invocation of the term "feminist" set off bells within you as you self-indentify with the term. That's fine. That doesn't make you a member of that certain faction that I find to be man-haters. I am referring to extremists like Andrea Dworkin, a truly hateful person if there ever was one, and Catherine MacKinnnon, an equally hateful and truly twisted person whom does not deserve to teach law at a prestigious university. She holds despicable views about men.

When I locate the New Yorker article, I will post some info from it- some history about consent laws in the States, and about what the faminists did.

Please do. I must not have read that article. I do not remember it at all.

I merely answered a question as to what sets victims of rape apart- they have to fear for their life longer, consequences are graver, they have the shame, they tend to be marginalized. And, it appears AS agrees with me.

I agree only to the extent that true victims of violent rape must often experience a great deal of trauma which is unique in kind among the traumas suffered by the entire set of victims of violent crimes. It is not necessarily unique in degree. That is not what I intended to convey in my earlier remarks which you took as general agreement with your remarks.

Victims of non-violent rapes (yes, there are such victims, despite what Dworkin and MacKinnon maintain, not all rape or sex is violent) does not necessarily experience any fear for their lives. Indeed, I suspect most do not. I think you exaggerate the fear many supposedly have about contracting AIDS or other serious STDs. Apparently, the alleged victim in my recent case never even got tested, as she never mentioned it at trial or in my pretrial interview with her. The victim in the television show who was "pissed off" never mentioned fear of STDs or AIDS or any kind of fear at all in her trial or in her private discussions with the DA on camera. I find those glaring omissions at odds with your claim that it is common to rape victims in general.

But as much as I hate appeal to emotion, imagine if a loved one is mugged, versus raped. Imagine your reactions as to how you would relate to her- would there be a difference to how you talk to her? And then you might know how the victims feel, and why there is a difference.

Again, in my opinion, this is proving Segnosaurus' point.

I will toss out a wild speculative theory I just thought of for the sake of argument here. I wonder how much of our culture's outrage about rape is due to its repressive attitudes about sex in general, about how precious a young woman's virginity supposedly is, and about our general shame and guilt about sex in general.

Imagine if in our culture sex were no more special than driving. If that were the case, then would we regard rapists as no more disdainful as another driver who deliberately cuts us off in heavy traffic?

It's an extreme comparison, to be sure. Nevertheless, my point is that perhaps rape is so traumatic because we build it up to be so. We teach our little girls that their virtue is the most precious and valuable thing they own. Boys, on the other hand, are taught that sexual conquest is the most manly pursuit, and that being sexually promiscuous is a sign of success as a man. Those mixed messages are in inherent conflict, especially in the teenage years when hormones are raging and curiosity is at its peak and boys and girls mix unlike at any other time in their lives.

The powerful emotions sex can evoke, including the powerful emotions evoked by the sexual act itself, can lead to intense feelings and profound confusion among its participants. It should come as no surprise that many young men will misunderstand signals, that some of them will let their hormones get the better of them and their senses of decency. It should come as no surprise that some of them will attempt to dominate in the implied competition for sexual conquest among their peers, and in so doing be callous or indifferent to the desires or feelings of their female targets of conquest.

It should come as no surprise that some girls will inevitably get hurt and/or abused by some of those boys. It should come as no surprise that some girls who may have given off plenty of "go" signals later regret getting caught up in the moment and rationalize it away as date-rape.

Does our sexually repressive culture breed some rapes under some of the circumstances I've described?

(This is not meant to ignore the fact that rape exists in nearly every human culture, and that it exists among many higher species of animals, including the other great apes).

Just some food for thought, if anyone cares to continue with this inflammatory subject.

AS

 

[American]

Let me repeat myself:
1.) Yes I was raped.
2.) Yes I has tried to commit suicide.
3.) yes I had cancer.
4.) Yes I live in Upstate New York.
(not neccesarily in that order)


Why don't I answer American's questions? Because I won't answer to bullies, people who harass and accuse and have already decided I'm someone they think I am because they think so.

And since when is it anyone's duty to back you up, American?

Sylvia, your story sounds like the BS that it is, your circumstances are way beyond plausibility, your demeanor is nothing like a rape survivor, you wrote about people you shouldn't know about were you not Hellcat, and you refuse to describe ANY landmarks that could verify if you've ever been in Upstate New York.

You were not raped like you describe, your supposed suicide attempts are irrelevant, as is your supposed cancer, and you are DEFINITELY NOT anywhere in New York (Upstate, Downstate, East, West, Up-your-ass-state). You are a liar.

 

[American]

Hey American a Jerk!

Do you do more than assault women.

Hey schmuck , pull your head out of your ass and do your research, you will find that there are many ways that a rape kit can become un-useable in court.

Like veidence being left uattended for even a minute while in the ER.
Contamination of evidence is ofetn a problem because some police officer abused the eveidence and sneezed in it.
If you ahd half a brain you would go **** youself and do the world a favor.

remember to call your grandmother and tell her how you support rape.


Fart!

Fag.

 

[AmateurScientist]

I have nothing but respect and friendship for AS, and I think he knows that- as well as Tricky and ImpyTimpy. If three people I like and respect tell me I am getting emotional, perhaps I am.

Thanks, Renata. I like and respect you very much as well, as you know. I must admit that I was taken aback by what I felt were unwarranted attacks and insults directed at me. I was hurt by your lashing out at me.

I'm sorry if I overreacted, and if I insulted you. I accept your apology to me.

AS

 

[neutrino_cannon]

http://www.council.nyc.ny.us/textfiles/Int 0281-2002A.htm

In 2002, 2,013 rapes were reported to the New York City Police Department.

http://www.health.state.ny.us/nysdoh/cancer/table1.pdf

Incidence of cancer in New York.


Given the number of rapes, in one year mind you, against the incidence of cancer, and the fact the events are over several years, I do not find this at all implausible.

We are often too quick to snap. What harm is there in listening to a story, even if ficticious, and not immediatly criticizing it because it bears resemblances that make us feel uncomfortable?

Just because god supports rape (2 samuel 12:11) doesn't give you permission.

 

[kittynh]

well, I try to not walk in someone elses shoes.
Doesn't work, and I just respect and take their word for it.

I knew the guys I testified for were guilty. But I had to tell the truth and trust the justice system, flawed as it sometimes is.

I could have lied, I could have left town. I think rape is a terrible crime, but that didn't justify my breaking the law or my own moral code.
Of course, guys can be raped and I think I'd like to hear from that perspective. Would he rather be raped or mugged?

 

[renata]

There was a fascinating article in the New Yorker that I know you subscribe to about 2 months back about evolution of rape laws, do you recall it? It talked about the jury selection, and how the worst jurors for prosecution for rape trials were elderly women, and the best men, who never buy into she asked for it BS. It also talked about evolution of rape laws and how some laws regarding consent changed only recently. I will have to look through my old stack to find the date


....and from another post....



With all respect, Tricky, the only people I saw marginilized here are feminists and "manhaters". When I locate the New Yorker article, I will post some info from it- some history about consent laws in the States, and about what the feminists did to change that.

Found it!
New Yorker, September 1, 2003 Jeffrey Toobin, Annals of Law: The Consent Defense pp. 40-44

It is not online, so I cannot link to it. Let me type some important points from it, and paraphrase some others.

For centirues the law regarder women as less than trustworthy witnesses, especially when it came to rape. For a man to be proven guilty, a woman could not be the sole witness to her own rape, so there were unique barriers to cionviction such as requirement of corroborating evidence. The most important justification for this treatment of rape came from Lord Chief Justice Matthew Hale, a sevenmtheetn century English jurist who said "rape is an accusation easlity to be made and hard to be proved, and harder to be defended by the party accused, tho never so innocent." Hale made this statement in the late sixteen hundreds, and three centuries later judges in many American courtrooms were still quoting it almost verbaim in their instructions to juries in rape cases.
Faced with these legal hurdles, many prosecutors more or less ignored the crime. In 1969, for example, police in New York City made 1,085 arrest for rape and only eighteen men were convicted.

The article goes on to quite Linda Fairstein, former head of Sec Crimes Prosecution Unit in the Manhattan District Attorney's office, who says they had to prove three elements of the crime
-someone besides the victim identifying the attacker going to or leaving the scene
-independent proof of sexual nature of the attack, before hospitals had evidence collection kits
-force, victims had to have bruises, so victim could not submit to a gun or knife.

Article goes on to explain the basis of need to show virtue- that women had to actively resist their attacker, or it was not rape.

According to an opinion by New York's highest court, in 1918, "Rape is not commiteted unless the woman oppose the man to the utmost limit of her power." This was still the law a half century later.

It also describes how defense attorneys would go into victim's sexual history and harass them to prevent victims from coming forward.

Then the article describes how the woman's movement of 1970's made the reform of the rape laws its top priority. First to go were the corroboration laws. Again, it quotes Linda Fairstein.

"The law doesn't require victims of other crimes- of assault, of robberies- to be corroborated, so neither should rape," Fairstein says. "Once you have a credible victim, what she gets is her day in court. It doesn't give rape victims an advantage; it just puts them on an even footing with victims of other crimes." This was a revolutionary notion. An editorial in the Times in 1972 had asserted that a system in which "any man could be convicted of rape solely on the unsupported charge of any woman is...abhorrent. " Nut by the mid-seventies most corroboration requirements were gone.

The article then goes on to duscyss how the requirement that a woman must protect her virtue was ditched, and development of rape shield laws.

It then goes in to the shadow of mixing of race and rape, and the fact that in the 50's and 60's liberals stayed away from the issues because they did not want to make the convictions easier, to avoid more lynchings. It says of he 455 men executed for rape in the US between 1930 and 1976, 405 where black, and almost all where charged with rape of white women. However, liberal feminists made alliances with victim's right movements, which was a conservative organization. In 1977 Supreme Court prohibited the use of death penalty in rape cases, lessening the stakes.


So this is a brief history of rape laws in US, and this is what feminists did to change it.

 

[Tricky]

I have nothing but respect and friendship for AS, and I think he knows that- as well as Tricky and ImpyTimpy. If three people I like and respect tell me I am getting emotional, perhaps I am.

It is impossible not to get emotional. It is a very difficult thing to talk about. As a person who likes and respects you, I do not find fault.

But explain this to me- if I told you, for example, that I had been a victim of child abuse, rape, pogrom threats, stoning, being chased and tank bearing down on me, would my arguments have more weight? Would that make you argue differently? Or make you change your mind? Why are the case stories about AS's friend, AS, or even you supposed to change your mind? I am not naive, I know a few things about muggings, and about rape, and about different variations thereof. We are not talking about particular stories, but about trends and averages.

I cannot deny that such a thing is true. I have family experience with a female who was sexually abused (though not raped) as a young child and has never gotten over it, though she is fifty years old now. Believe me, I do not dismiss the long term effects of such crimes. I also agree that society tends to look askance at women who cry rape, as if they somehow deserved it. I find that callousness abhorant.

But I also know rape victims who (as AS point out) have gotten over it quite easily. One of these is also in my family. Perhaps you are right that the numbers say that rape is harder to overcome than mugging. There may be many reasons for this, including the tendency to distrust rape claims and of course the tactic by lawyers to discredit rape victims. This is a great wrong of society, but I do not know any way to eliminate it without depriving others of the right to defend themselves. It is one of those terrible "no win" situations.

With all respect, Tricky, the only people I saw marginilized here are feminists and "manhaters". When I locate the New Yorker article, I will post some info from it- some history about consent laws in the States, and about what the feminists did to change that. I sympathize with victims of mugging. I sympathize with victims of rape. I merely answered a question as to what sets victims of rape apart- they have to fear for their life longer, consequences are graver, they have the shame, they tend to be marginalized. And, it appears AS agrees with me that rape is unique. Nobody says there is no nightmares, fear from victims of muggings. I acknowledge that.

You are correct, and I did not mean to marginalize your point. It is true that rape is a crime that is almost always against females. Anybody can be mugged, but I have rarely heard of a man being raped by women, and if it happened, I cannot imagine that it would be a particularly traumatic experience.

But most of us have had various traumatic experiences of one kind or another. We get over them and move on. I pity those who can't move on, but I do not give them an exception because of the particular experience. Admittedly, some people can handle things better than others. Life is funny.

But as much as I hate appeal to emotion, imagine if a loved one is mugged, versus raped. Imagine your reactions as to how you would relate to her- would there be a difference to how you talk to her? And then you might know how the victims feel, and why there is a difference.

I have been in both situations and my response was similar. I think possibly one of the worst things about being a rape victim is the fear that others will treat you differently. Fear that they will treat you like sluts or will overprotect you. I think you should treat them with compassion, but make clear that you love/like them no less because of their ordeal. I know that this is not the way the world treats them, so that is not a universal solution. But you do what you can.

 

[Suezoled]

Sylvia, your story sounds like the BS that it is, your circumstances are way beyond plausibility, your demeanor is nothing like a rape survivor, you wrote about people you shouldn't know about were you not Hellcat, and you refuse to describe ANY landmarks that could verify if you've ever been in Upstate New York.

You were not raped like you describe, your supposed suicide attempts are irrelevant, as is your supposed cancer, and you are DEFINITELY NOT anywhere in New York (Upstate, Downstate, East, West, Up-your-ass-state). You are a liar.

My demeanor is nothing like a rape survivor? Did I miss the "how rape survivors should act" class?
I wrote about people I shouldn't know if I weren't Hellcat? Must I repeat myself (again)? For Ed's sake, I lurked, and there have been threads about these people. Who else did I mention? jedi Knight? Ghengis Pwn? These other people were mentioned, too, in other threads.

Maybe it's a bit much for you to handle. People can have stuff happen in their lives, whether or not you believe it, American.

Oh and New York, Upstate, as you insist: I work in Albany about 2 exits off the State University of New York Albany (SUNY Albany) to us locals. You can catch a show at the Knickerbocker Arena (renamed Pepsi several years ago). One of the largest malls in Crossgates, at the end of the Northway. Or you can trek on over to Saratoga Downtown (30minutes on the Northway). The summer SPAC (Saratoga Performing Arts Center) season is over, but there are still local talents playing the clubs up and down Broadway (E. O'Dyer's is a blast when it hosts Sirsy) Stop by Wheat Fields, which makes their own fresh pasta, or Professor Moriarty's, which has outdoor seating in the summer. If you want good Japanese, Mino's Sushi Bar is on Caroline Street, but only at special hours. Don't worry, you don't need a reservation. (Actually, if you're a cute girl, the owner, Mino, might give you a free dessert.) When it's summer, the Saratoga racetrack is fun, if you like betting and the track. The rest of the year on and off can be busy, depending on if there's a convention at the City Center. If you do stay in Saratoga, the Gideon Putnam Inn is cute and quaint (just check for needles under the matresses, okay, because those rock stars are known to leave junk like that). If you need art supplies, Suave Faire is on Broadway. If you mention you're a student, a senior citizen, a parent, (basically, if you're breathing) you can get a 10% discount on art suplies at the desk. Paul is owner and proprieter of Celtic Treasures, which brings stuff from Ireland and sells in the US. For cheap eats you can go to Subway or the Bruegger's Bagels (across the street). Mrs. London's bread shop makes great cheese bread, but you have to get there mad early to buy a loaf. Collect basewball cards? Cargile Collectibles opened last year. Harry is an honest dealer, and very kind. He will explain everything he can about cards if you want. There's a Border's Bookstore, but if you want good comics or anime, go to Spa City Comics. If you like horse stuff, Equine Sports Center is not far from the track. You can pick up brushes, ointments, etc. No fee to go and in park and browse. Just don't wander or security will nab you.

 

[American]

You had ALL DAY to glean that off the internet. You provided ZERO landmarks for 12 hours after I asked for ONE.

Further, we now need someone from that area to verify what you wrote, late as it was. (Not one of your sock puppets of course.)