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Rape

Denise said:
Renata, that was a wonderful post. To be clear to the forum, another poster told me of suspicions that Flame might be Hellcat, not Renata.

Thank you, Denise :)

But I did post in the ID kit, and link to this thread. I insinuated Flame was Hellcat...I need a break from this issue, I lost perspective.

Utterly inexcusable


I am, however, quite sure that Hellcat is still on this forum. She is probably gleeful at the chasm she has created in our community.

Wasn't that her purpose all along, really? Really the point of the sob stories is so we could never accuse her of lies, on the chance there is truth. And so, just as I feared...she succeeded. I blame myself, and her for not trusting and reaching out to a genuine victim. On a serious note, I also wanted to add something important on the subject of rape stories. One side effect with posting personal rape accounts on message boards is that rape victims reading them can get flashbacks. Someone once said that rape is not merely a crime against a person, it is a crime against memory. A friend of mine who was attacked still has anxiety attacks, and they get more frequent, in her case when someone talks derisivily about date rape, how victims deserve it, made things up. But other victims relive it with reminders from other sources. Just a thought, in case you wonder- who might be reading this. It just may be possible some victims read this thread and can't sleep, and are reliving the shame and the pain. Which is not to say victims should not feel free to share it if they wish- they have nothing to be ashamed of, or to hide. But this also goes to show on what harm does it do for the stories that are not real, that are fake. People who live through it for real have to experience real pain reliving fantasies of someone getting internet jollies.


So, Renata, do we tell Flame about the skepchick hazing now or later?:D

Yes. First, she has to shave some wombats.... :D
 
renata said:


Thank you, Denise :)

But I did post in the ID kit, and link to this thread. I insinuated Flame was Hellcat...I need a break from this issue, I lost perspective.

Utterly inexcusable




Wasn't that her purpose all along, really? Really the point of the sob stories is so we could never accuse her of lies, on the chance there is truth. And so, just as I feared...she succeeded. I blame myself, and her for not trusting and reaching out to a genuine victim. On a serious note, I also wanted to add something important on the subject of rape stories. One side effect with posting personal rape accounts on message boards is that rape victims reading them can get flashbacks. Someone once said that rape is not merely a crime against a person, it is a crime against memory. A friend of mine who was attacked still has anxiety attacks, and they get more frequent, in her case when someone talks derisivily about date rape, how victims deserve it, made things up. But other victims relive it with reminders from other sources. Just a thought, in case you wonder- who might be reading this. It just may be possible some victims read this thread and can't sleep, and are reliving the shame and the pain. Which is not to say victims should not feel free to share it if they wish- they have nothing to be ashamed of, or to hide. But this also goes to show on what harm does it do for the stories that are not real, that are fake. People who live through it for real have to experience real pain reliving fantasies of someone getting internet jollies.




Yes. First, she has to shave some wombats.... :D


NO RENATA, NOT AGAIN, I BEG YOU. IT'S ONLY JUST GROWN BACK FROM THE LAST TIME AND IT'S MID-OCTOBER FOR ED'S SAKE! PLEASE. PLEASE, PLEASE - HAVE MERCY ON A POOR DEFENCLESS MARSUPIAL! (sob, sob)
 
renata said:


'But this also goes to show on what harm does it do for the stories that are not real, that are fake. People who live through it for real have to experience real pain reliving fantasies of someone getting internet jollies.'


I think while making a valid point about the hurt that exposure to this sort of detail may cause (and I'm deeply sorry if I've done that to anyone) you also raise another good point.

Fake accusations have lead to the victim being put on trial and while I understand the need for 'innocent until proven guilty' I also feel that false accusations IRL and online have lead to people with genuine trauma being disbelieved because it seems that there are people out there who will falsely claim rape.
What a horrible and disgusting thing to do.

After reading through this thread again it seems that it has taken a detour from the original subject. I'm kind of regretting participating in it now and I'll step back now and leave it to others.

Regards
Toni

PS

Yes. First, she has to shave some wombats.... :D

okie dokie, clippers at the ready
 
Flame said:
I think while making a valid point about the hurt that exposure to this sort of detail may cause (and I'm deeply sorry if I've done that to anyone) you also raise another good point.

Fake accusations have lead to the victim being put on trial and while I understand the need for 'innocent until proven guilty' I also feel that false accusations IRL and online have lead to people with genuine trauma being disbelieved because it seems that there are people out there who will falsely claim rape.
What a horrible and disgusting thing to do.

After reading through this thread again it seems that it has taken a detour from the original subject. I'm kind of regretting participating in it now and I'll step back now and leave it to others.

Regards
Toni

PS

Agreed absolutely. Any lie by anyone causes hurt to so many. Example- because Hellcat lied here I accused a genuine victim, hurting you, and perhaps other victims, for which, again, deeply sorry. Hellcat's descriptions can bring pain to real victims, who upon discovering the lie, hurt all the more. A false accusation of date rape hurts the man accused forever and brands him a rapish, but like you said, taints the real victims as well, as now people will be skeptical of such claims. It is an awful thing, and I regret the role I played in causing you any hurt, and in bringing back the disbelief and the hurt you experienced before. There are resources out available, and you will have support. Now, to the initiation.

okie dokie, clippers at the ready


I will knit you a sweater, tim....come here, tim.....

Can someone remind me of stage 2? It was so gruesome I tried to block it out of my memory, but I am moon rocks were involved.
 
Tim, I want to thank you for volunteering for our current hazing. It is what you were meant to do. Really. The sex part will be way, way, better than the shaving. Really!:D
 
Renata, it was moon rocks and the mile high club. I think Tim is prepared. He has been chanting for strength and stuff.
 
Cleopatra said:
Amateur Scientist I have a question.

Before posing my question allow me remind to the rest of the people here ( I think that I have mentioned it to you in our previous discussions) that in my country the criminal law is a question of the victim versus an individual, it's not the State that prosecutes but the victim which is represented by a criminal lawyer who does the job a DA's office does- he has to prove the guilt of the accused. The State is present just to secure the procedure.

So, here is my question regarding your case.

When we see such a dichotomy between the Procecution and the Jury ( you said that their decision was unanimous-- that was impressive-congratulations BTW) don't you think that there is a problem?

Don't you think that we miss something? When it comes to such cases, personally I have the feeling that Justice wasn't served.

Your question is quite substantial, even if you didn't mean it as such.

The simple answer is yes, but I don't think it's the kind of problem you presume.

As an aside, thanks for congratulating me. In my jurisdiction criminal jury verdicts must be unanimous, otherwise there is a hung jury, which means they couldn't agree on a verdict. In such a case, if the judge is convinced they cannot agree, then the judge is obligated to declare a mistrial and the state is free to prosecute the case again in a new trial. In practice, this sometimes results in a renegotiated plea to a lesser offense, or in no new prosecution at all. In other words, a hung jury is nearly always regarded as a win by the defense, as it results in the defendant's not being found guilty (read that carefully--not being found guilty is not the same as being found "not guilty"), at least for the time being.

Back to your question. The "problem," if you wish to regard as such, is that investigators, prosecutors, and grand juries have access to only one side of the case. They only hear from the accuser or accusers (The defense has no right to be present at grand jury proceedings. Indeed, they are secret and take place in the district attorney's office). Thus, they get a very biased view of the facts. Add to this the very real tendency of many of those on the side of law enforcement to assume that nearly all accusations of criminal activity are true. This results in a big criminal justice machine which gathers momentum easily once someone has placed a call to the police to begin a criminal prosecution. It can be very hard to stop that machine once it is in motion.

Unfortunately for many, once an accused is placed in that machine, it can be very difficult to get out without a jury hearing the case at trial and hearing and seeing the accused's side of the facts. Thus, the jury is the last wall of protection for an accused between the awesome powers and resources of the state to imprison him or even to take his life, and his remaining freedom as an individual.

Juries often find that there is reasonable doubt about the facts as the state presents them which are necessary to establish a crime. When they do that, the accused is found not guilty and goes free. To characterize that as a "problem" is due either to a misunderstanding of the intended framework of the American criminal justice systme, or to an oversimplication of the issue.

At the top of this post I said the simple answer is "yes." By that I meant that the "problem" is that often the law enforcement side becomes overzealous and fails to use its critical analysis skills to recognize that it has serious problems with its proof that is admissible before a jury. Too often they just "know" that the person they have accused is guilty, and they become rigid in their stance and refuse to negotiate fairly or in good faith. Often, such refusals result in defense attorneys or their clients deciding the best course of action is to "roll the dice" with the jury.

In short, criminal justice in the U.S. is very much a balancing act between the prosecution and the defense. It is intended to be that way. It is not a broken system because it often results in guilty persons going free. We designed the system to allow that on the premise that such a result is much more preferable to one in which innocent persons are freely and often wrongly convicted.

In short, I lament that the public too often has the impression that persons in the criminal justice system rarely are wrongfully accused. Most practising criminal defense lawyers have seen many of their clients wrongfully accused of conduct that they probably didn't do. That is not the same as declaring them "innocent." It means that not only does the state sometimes target the wrong individuals for prosecution, but also that the state often overcharges defendants by exaggerating the nature of the charge, by stacking one charge after another on the same set of facts, and by exaggerating the facts pointing to criminal conduct.

You are simply offbase to declare that justice isn't served in served in cases in which a not guilty verdict is the result. To make such a statement is to misunderstand criminal justice in the U.S. as it was intended to function. The system isn't broken. What is broken are the public's understanding and perceptions about it.

AS
 
Hellcat was banned a long time ago, and you registered in september. So how'd you know who that was? To me it looks more like I was calling you a hellcat, which would make more sense if you didn't know who that was, which you apparently did.

Oh for the love of Ed! There are/were threads all over about people named Jedi Knight, Hellcat, and Ghengis Pwn (or however he spelled it). I lurked here for several months before I signed to join. Add to that the Hellcat ID kit, the fact I have had some life experiences she has named, and I'm fairly new. Is it that big a leap to figure when American spells "hellcat" he's not saying I am one in general? That doesn't fit the context of your insinuation, American.

I told a personal story. I wasn't looking for pity. I felt I was strong enough to tell other people a personal story, for people who didn't want to tell theirs. I wanted to let people know these things happen, not just to other people. And they are not alone. I'm here too. Maybe I'm no one, after all. But I can't judge how other people are. I only have my own experience to draw on, and I hope I haven't offended anyone.
 
Tony said:
I find rape (of anyone, man, woman and child) to be one of the most disgusting things, maybe even worse than murder. When ever I think of my girlfriend, my mom or my sister (or any woman (or child)) being raped, by blood starts to boil. What should be the punishment for a rapist? I am thinking death. What are your thoughts on the matter?
My fiancee and I were watching an episode of Law & Order: SVU last night about a serial killer that would kidnap, rap and murder 7-10 year old girls. At the end of it all, he exchanged the name and location of his first victim, that the cops didn't know about, for not getting the death penalty. My fiancee, who is strongly against the death penalty said that if this were to happen to a child of ours, she didn't know she could not be for killing him.

But ultimately, revenge isn't justice. It's a fine line that I'm not even sure I could define if I were emotionally connected to the situation. It's not an easy question.
 
Suezoled said:

I told a personal story. I wasn't looking for pity. I felt I was strong enough to tell other people a personal story, for people who didn't want to tell theirs. I wanted to let people know these things happen, not just to other people. And they are not alone. I'm here too. Maybe I'm no one, after all. But I can't judge how other people are. I only have my own experience to draw on, and I hope I haven't offended anyone.


You're from Upstate New York? Time for 20-Questions, Hellcat.


- Name several towns in your area. Which ones are considered rich and snoby? Which are farm towns full of white trash?

- What are the major malls? Name a restaurant nearby (don't say "Burger King".)

- Where do young people go to be trendy? If they want to go out dancing or to a club?

- Radio towers are everywhere. Where are the big ones located near your highways?

My last question:

- Did you come?
 
The whole rape issue is a mess and it seems to only get messier as time goes by. To many people are getting actually attacked while the court hears reports from people whose claims are meant to sully the reputation of another or simply keep theirs intact.

The death penalty seems a little harsh for rapists-not because they deserve better(im a fan of old germanic tribal justice in this case..let her relatives "deal" with him in any way they chose) but because to many turn out to be innocent. Here in Canada we had a case with a guy serving something like 10 years simply because the lady lied to cover her own ass. Heck-how can you ever make what happened to him better? Perhaps if there was some way to persecute an accuser if it turns out they lied.

Of course, that would lead to people being to frightened to come forward with what has happened to them.

Crap-I dont know. I just cant stand the idea of this occuring and an innocent gets hurt by an overzealous prosecution.
 
Alaric said:
... [too] many turn out to be innocent.

Case-in-point: girl makes up a story of gang rape and posts it right here. "The rape kit was contaminated." :roll:

This woman ever goes to trial, right there you would have 4 guys doing life in prison because she likes telling stories. But they're frat guys- who cares about them?
 
Okay American, let me spell it out for you:
1.) I work. I have to pay attention to my work. So I can't come running when you clap your miserable little paws.

2.) I owe you nothing. You can try to provoke me all you want. You can call me a liar and laugh at me, call me Hellcat and blast me. Your attempt to humiliate and anger me are laughable. You are unworthy of any answer on my part. And; seeing as to how you already condemned me by calling me a liar, I refuse to feed your flames.

As one person said, God be with you.
 
Suezoled said:
Okay American, let me spell it out for you:
1.) I work. I have to pay attention to my work. So I can't come running when you clap your miserable little paws.

2.) I owe you nothing. You can try to provoke me all you want. You can call me a liar and laugh at me, call me Hellcat and blast me. Your attempt to humiliate and anger me are laughable. You are unworthy of any answer on my part. And; seeing as to how you already condemned me by calling me a liar, I refuse to feed your flames.

As one person said, God be with you.

Does anyone here believe this crap?


(Damn, why wasn't I a lawyer? Oh that's right, I have good ethics and basic moral values.)
 
American said:
Does anyone here believe this crap?
Hmmm.... her credibility versus yours... what is the ratio of zero to zero?

American said:
(Damn, why wasn't I a lawyer? Oh that's right, I have good ethics and basic moral values.)
I suspect it has more to do with your inability to do college-level work.
 
Suezoled said:
All I wanted was for those 4 frat bastards who gang banged me to admit they did it. To admit they did wrong. To admit they locked the door and guarded it while one guy held me down and the others took turns. But no, it would mean confessing they did something wrong and then paying for that crime. Poor boys.

Well it's not going to happen. They got off. They got off and decided it was fun to follow me around campus as a group. So I had to switch schools.

To those guys, 6 years ago, I wasn't a person, I was a b*tch. I was a b*tch who squealed. And even if I didn't win, I'm glad I did that much. If I had it to do over again, I would use deadly force if I could. I have the feeling those boys had done something like this before, because they moved so efficiently. I would spare anyone in the future the trauma by taking the sin of killing onto myself, if I could.

But simply put, I do not. So, I have worked very hard to overcome the rapists inside of me. The memories, the pain, the feeling of being alone when my dad blamed me for being raped. I still work to overcome.

Even though they got away, they won't defeat me. I won't give in. They won't defeat me. Not inside, not outside; I will overcome them. I have to. For the sake of me and the me inside of me.

I am not who I was. I will be better.


Why did your dad say it was your fault?
 

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