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Penn & Teller's "BS" -- Yay or Nay?

In the ten or more years I've been reading the arguments of Libertarians online, and in others mediums, I have never once seen a Libertarian say "I Don't Know" about anything.
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I'm not a 100% Libertarian, but I'm sure I'm close enough to count. If you read the Skeptoid subforum you'll see me say all kinds of things like "I don't know" and "It's outside my area of expertise". ;)

Besides, they're presenting an argument. They've never pretended to be unbiased (saying many times "We're biased as...."). They're presenting (a subset of) their arguments--if you don't like it you don't have to accept it, AND you know precisely what to argue against. If nothing else they should be praised for that, considering the amount of doublespeak and corporatespeak we encounter. Like I said, I disagree with them on occasion. But, unlike most peopl I disagree with, I can respect P&T because they're brave enough to say "This is what I believe, and here's why".
 
Burning Beard said:
Uuuum, I didn't say it was great. ;)
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Then what sort of reaction did you expect from the anti-vaxers?
The doctor was actually presented decent.

Their only major complaint was that he was Jenny McCarthy's doctor which isn't such a negative issue.
Now had they bothered asking "why hasn't the doctor cured any other child of autisim..." is in and of itself a good question to raise.

As for the parents... They actually were presented preety good compared to the regular local nuts. I mean they have admitted that they want to know the truth and ask people to help them. Can we ask for anything more?
(Sure, accepting the facts, but as P&T don't provide those for the interviewees that's sort of irelavent)

Considering this issue is similar to the conspiracy theories but have much greater reprecussions in real life. You don't vaccinate your kids they could die.
And yet comparing the two episodes...

The anti-vax was really poorly done in my opinion. The issue was not attacked head on.
 
I watched a few seasons of this show. It was OK at first, but they've obviously run out of ideas. Sometimes the stuff they have a gripe with takes a pretty superficial stance towards nuanced issues. I don't think the show has much left in it personally.
 
GrandMasterFox said:
As someone who did Tai Chi for 2 years, I would agree that their "master" seemed a bit of a whack job. We never did any of those "healing sounds" and in fact they barely showed the dance itself which was a bit odd I have to say.

But in my opinion they should have just cut it out entirely. The point of the episode that Penn said in the beginning is that the concept of martial arts is stupid regardless of the mystical bs and I highly agree.

Most of the people I know who are into the more serious stuff are *constantly* getting injured, feel terrible and were never even close to having to need to use it...

The advertisement is BS indeed.
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GrandMasterFox said:
As someone who did Tai Chi for 2 years, I would agree that their "master" seemed a bit of a whack job. We never did any of those "healing sounds" and in fact they barely showed the dance itself which was a bit odd I have to say.

But in my opinion they should have just cut it out entirely. The point of the episode that Penn said in the beginning is that the concept of martial arts is stupid regardless of the mystical bs and I highly agree.

Most of the people I know who are into the more serious stuff are *constantly* getting injured, feel terrible and were never even close to having to need to use it...

The advertisement is BS indeed.
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Very respectfully, if you highly agree with Penn’s comment, it just shows that your understanding of what martial arts entail is very limited.

The people I know who are very serious about their martial arts are NOT getting injured constantly and don't feel terrible. I know I feel worse when I don't train.

Regarding the use of a martial art, it depends on your understanding. Most of the martial artists I know do NOT get into fights, but that does not mean that they're not using their martial arts skills.

Interestingly, the opening scene reminded me of the first time I was robbed at gunpoint. My martial arts training enabled me to remain calm. It would have been stupid to let the situation escalate or to try to fight someone with a gun.

Penn & Teller are not presenting scholarly research. They are entertaining -or attempting to entertain- their audience. They take things out of context to make a joke.

I've never done Qigong the way that woman does it, but she's right about Tai Chi being a martial art. I think it was after my first or second class that I told my teacher that the movements we were doing seemed to be blocks and attacks, but done very slowly. The rest of the class did not realize it since they did not have a background in martial arts, but I spoke with my teacher about it in more detail.

Penn & Teller include stuff that is NOT truly a martial art, and the people they choose to exemplify martial arts are probably not the best examples if one wants to take things seriously. Again, Penn & Teller are more interested in entertainment. That's a bit unfortunate since some of the comments by these "experts" are wrong.

Serious schools will NOT give a student a black belt after one year, as the "skeptic" mentioned. And serious schools do have standards and a clear list of requirements for each degree. These days it's common to see kids who are black belts, yet a serious school will not give a child a black belt, regardless of his/her years of training. As they mention correctly in the show, martial arts are a big business. That's where part of the BS comes from. Let's remember that martial arts were NOT a business in the past.

Damian -the "self-defense" guy- is not practicing or teaching martial arts.

On a positive note, there is some research regarding many of the aspects mentioned in the show. I remember watching a show called Fight Science years ago. Now there's one called Sport Science. Using the same approach from these shows, I recently saw Shi Yan Ming's one-inch punch being measured. I can't post links but search "Superhuman Shifu Shi Yan Ming's Killer punch" on Youtube.
Around 7:30 they begin to talk about the one-inch punch. It is more like 3 inches, but still impressive and an interesting part of the study of Chi. Perhaps in the future they can teach 20 people of roughly the same age, weight, skill, etc., how to punch, and randomly select 10 and tech them how to use their Chi. Have them punch and compare the results for both groups.

I like Penn & Teller, and I like Martial Arts. I won't ask my Sensei for a joke or a magic trick, and I won't ask Penn & Teller for Martial Arts advise. :)
 
Anyone know if they'd done a show on the whole "face on mars" silliness?
 
I watched their episode on fast food yesterday. It was my first time watching, and I wasn't impressed. I thought they did a poor job by personally ripping the anti-fast fooders and promoting their libertarian agenda.

They were correct in that fast food isn't as bad as people say, but their approach was disappointing.
 
Sogtul said:
can teach 20 people of roughly the same age, weight, skill, etc., how to punch, and randomly select 10 and tech them how to use their Chi. Have them punch and compare the results for both groups.

I like Penn & Teller, and I like Martial Arts. I won't ask my Sensei for a joke or a magic trick, and I won't ask Penn & Teller for Martial Arts advise. :)
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What's chi? Can it be quantified? Measured? Tested?
 
Resume said:
What's chi? Can it be quantified? Measured? Tested?
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Energy.
I don't know how it would be quantified, but it certainly can be tested in a variety of ways. Subjectively as James Randi has done, by asking blindfolded people whether they're feeling energy transmitted from a "master." Perhaps more "accurately" with a device to measure heat or electricity which have been commonly associated with Chi. Blindfolded subjects may perceive things based solely on their expectations. From what I recall, that's exactly what happened on Randi's test. I found it fascinating, and it was one of the first times I saw James Randi on TV.

I just found this regarding scientific research in Qigong. There have been scientific papers reviewed by "Professor Qian Xuesen (Tsien Hsue-sen), former Chairman and current Honorary Chairman of Chinese National Association of Scientists, Ph.D., California Institute of Technology, formerly Goddard Professor, Jet Propulsion Laboratory, California Institute of Technology; Professor Zhao Zhongyao, an eminent expert on nuclear physics in China, member, Academia Sinica, an early academic advisor to Dr. C.N. Yang who later won a Nobel Price in physics (being a member of Academia Sinica is roughly equivalent to being a fellow of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences); Professor Bei Shizhang, biophysics expert, world renowned biophysics teacher, member, Academia Sinica; Professor Feng Xinfang, microbiologist, member, Academia Sinica; and Professor Hu Haichang, thermophysicist, member, Academia Sinica..."

I have not read the research, but it's a good thing that ancient traditions are slowly being studied with a more modern approach, even though the integration of models across different times and cultures certainly presents a challenge.

My own experiences have been revealing. There are plenty of charlatans out there, my scientific training makes me skeptical of these things, yet I owe a great debt to 3 people who helped me heal, in spite of my mind telling me how unreasonable my experience was. For example, I spent about 2 years with the big toe on my left foot pointing down and the rest of my toes pointing up. One day my uncle asked me to come by his office and introduced me to a lady from Brazil. She asked to see my foot, and I removed my shoe and socks. My toes looked purple as she slowly looked at my foot and gently caressed it. I had no idea what was going on, or whether she would accept to see me as a patient, but my toes slowly began to get back in place and recover their normal color. In a matter of minutes she was able to do what modern medicine could not. For 2 years I had gone to doctors, surgeons, took X-Rays, MRIs, got massages, ultrasounds, physical therapy, etc. As the program director for my Ph.D. program jokingly said, "you can't argue with those results, even if you're just a sample of one" :)

But after this long story, Chi is not what would be quantified in the experiment I mentioned, but rather punching strength. Chi training would be the independent variable, and training could include breathing, "Kiai," visualization, etc. Then we would see if there were differences between the force of the punches of those who received Chi training and those who didn't.
 
What kind of energy? Electromagnetic? Thermal? Kinetic? Potential? Surely you understand where I'm heading here.
 
Resume said:
What kind of energy? Electromagnetic? Thermal? Kinetic? Potential? Surely you understand where I'm heading here.
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And that's just the thing. We may not know exactly what it is, or exactly how to measure it, at this moment, but that's what research is for. I think it's great ti finally have a scientific approach attempting to explain these very old traditions and concepts.

Makes me think of the way some people used to decide where to hunt, by breaking bones or throwing stones in the air or something primitive and superstitious. The scientific explanation turned out to be that these cultures maintained a healthy balance and did not end up depleting the food sources in their areas since the choice of where to hunt was random. It had nothing to do with the rituals, except for the randomness of the outcome (e.g., where the rocks fell, where the broken bone pointed).

Maybe future studies will point out that Chi is related to blood, oxygenation, chemicals, adrenaline, or something else. Maybe they will find different types of Chi, for health, for energy, for maintaining life. Maybe they'll find there's no such thing as Chi. We're trying to understand an old concept from a very different culture using a completely different frame of reference, but the great thing is that marriage of the old and the new. Like the Dalai Lama and Buddhist monks encouraging scientific studies regarding meditation, its effects on health, happiness, etc. It's a very old activity, now measured with very modern equipment, using a more scientific approach.
 
Sogtul said:
I remember watching a show called Fight Science years ago. Now there's one called Sport Science. Using the same approach from these shows, I recently saw Shi Yan Ming's one-inch punch being measured. I can't post links but search "Superhuman Shifu Shi Yan Ming's Killer punch" on Youtube.
Around 7:30 they begin to talk about the one-inch punch. It is more like 3 inches, but still impressive and an interesting part of the study of Chi. Perhaps in the future they can teach 20 people of roughly the same age, weight, skill, etc., how to punch, and randomly select 10 and tech them how to use their Chi. Have them punch and compare the results for both groups.
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We did the one-inch punch back when I was doing Kuoshu. It has nothing to do with chi. Chi/ki/etc. was never even mentioned in any of the martial arts classes I've taken, even when we were doing stuff like tameshiwari (breaking things).

The one-inch punch is just a cool demo meant to show that, using the physics of a proper punch (more specifically, kinetic linking), you can generate a surprising amount of power even from a short distance. Nothing supernatural required.

Proper martial arts are all about physics, and trying to bring woo nonsense into the equation only serves to cheapen them.
 
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RockNroll said:
I remember Penn doing a speech a few seasons back (I think it was in the NASA episode, not 100% sure) where he talked about how science was awesome and how he wanted to be a sort of "cheerleader" for it, to the best of his abilities. I thought that was very nice.

Unfortunately, it seems that when science and libertopianism clash, he has a tendency to side with the latter.
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chainlink said:
There were a few shows that I even thought were ignorant and reckless, like the segments about "second-hand" smoking and global warming, in which they basically brushed aside much scientific evidence and instead pushed their own viewpoint.

While they are often debunking demonstrably crazy ideas and outright scams, such as 'psychic' fortune telling and the like, but in some cases they are pushing an agenda of similarly crazy theories as well as personal and political bias.
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I think these two quote sufficiently explain my opinion of the show.

I find Penn and Teller to be somewhat entertaining as presenters, and some of their shows are pitch perfect if not wonderfully thorough, such as the swearing episode, or the one on psychics, and I'd LOVE to see their magic show, but I find their crass playing to certain political positions no matte rwhat the evidence actually says to be distasteful.

The second hand smoking issue is particularly upsetting to me, as I have a heart condition that means I am even more susceptible to smoke as an issue, and while I admit that I have indeed stayed in smoky areas and not been too bothered before it is something I try to avoid if I can because it's highly dangerous. I find their dismissal of it as an issue to be at best, ignorant politicking and at worst outright dishonest covering up of the facts. That they practically worship the CATO institute makes it even worse.
 
RockNroll said:
We did the one-inch punch back when I was doing Kuoshu. It has nothing to do with chi. Chi/ki/etc. was never even mentioned in any of the martial arts classes I've taken, even when we were doing stuff like tameshiwari (breaking things).

The one-inch punch is just a cool demo meant to show that, using the physics of a proper punch (more specifically, kinetic linking), you can generate a surprising amount of power even from a short distance. Nothing supernatural required.

Proper martial arts are all about physics, and trying to bring woo nonsense into the equation only serves to cheapen them.
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I do believe there's something more than physics and kinetic linking for one reason. The lady was unable to explain that much acceleration and force in such a short distance. She must know a little about this since she has a Ph.D. and uses a scientific approach. I've met plenty of people with Ph.D.s who are not too bright, though, but I do like this lady's approach.

In addition, they've also measured a female boxer (Lucia Rijker), an MMA fighter (Rampage Jackson) and many others. She is certainly familiar with kinetic linking. Technique was the reason why Rijker could punch as strong or stronger than a male boxer of similar size. In Jackson's case, I think he said he put his ass into the punch or something comical like that. The explanation showed how the force originates from the feet, not the fist.

I've never seen a good one-inch punch demo except for the famous Bruce Lee video, and that one was not scientifically tested. I've seen one-inch punches in which people are pushing more than punching, and not generating any significant impact.

For breaking boards, I don't remember ever focusing on Chi. I haven't broken a board in maybe 28 years, and if I wanted to break one now I would not need to focus on Chi. Interestingly, there is some "research" about the increased power yelling (e.g., Kiai) helps generate while striking. IIRC, this is the guy who was tested:
I can't post links but it's on Youtube watch?v=jfhkNS2FbWE

Regarding the lack of mention of Chi in your martial arts training, it can depend on your school, your style, your teacher, and yourself. I learned more about Chi after asking my Tai Chi Chuan / Qi Gong teacher. He did not talk about it in class, but after I asked him he showed me some breathing exercises, for example. More recently, I asked my Sensei and he showed me an exercise involving breathing and visualization. I don't recall Hanshi ever talking specifically about Chi except for that occasion, or whenever I go ahead and ask him. He holds a 7th Dan in Jojutsu, and 8th Dan in both Iaido and Karate-Do, although from his comments in class he seems to be familiar with many other styles as well (e.g., Judo, Muay Thai), but I don't know if they talk about Chi in his other classes.
 
Sledge said:
And that's where I stopped reading.
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Given what I've seen of your previous posts.....I'm happy you got that that far. : ) I won't apologize for the derogatory term I used for the Libertarian Party, but that you didn't stop at the South Park compaison itself......I'll take it. : )
 
RockNroll said:
The one-inch punch is just a cool demo meant to show that, using the physics of a proper punch (more specifically, kinetic linking), you can generate a surprising amount of power even from a short distance. Nothing supernatural required.
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Actually, isn't it almost the case that a shorter distance is probably even more effective?

F = ma

which means it depends on the acceleration. If the effectiveness of the punch relies more on the force behind it, as opposed to the energy or momentum of the hand, then you would want to catch the punch at full acceleration, not at full velocity. In that respect, I can imagine the maximum acceleration is early on.

But this is just me speculating...
 
RockNroll said:
Proper martial arts are all about physics, and trying to bring woo nonsense into the equation only serves to cheapen them.
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Amen!

And on the original topic of P&T's Bulls Hit, I find the show entertaining... I have learned a thing or two but like most things on TV it must be taken with a grain of salt.

In the current trend of "reality" confrontation, controversy and extreme "in your face" TV shows getting all the ratings, I think that they are putting skepticism out there in a way thats "sells" to the public. It is perfect? Nope! But the show I'd love to see (a cleaner well thought out, well balanced, highly scientific version of Bulls Hit would not last a month with the current TV viewing audiences).

Just my 2 cents...

Pat
 
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