Penn & Teller's "BS" -- Yay or Nay?

[Emet]

From their web site:

By their own admission, Penn & Teller have been dying to do a show like this. Confirmed skeptics and pro-science atheists (they refer to God as "an imaginary friend"), these magicians are big fans of the art of debunking.

They also call upon the scientific community for back-up. Penn & Teller have discovered that the evidence debunking bogus operatives exists in countless books, scientific papers and government-sponsored exposés — research that nobody else has presented to the public with such zeal, passion, and conviction.

As our increasingly anti-intellectual, anti-science culture moves on each day to new crackpot subject matters, Penn & Teller are there to aggressively shoot down whack-jobs and fuzzy thinkers, no matter where they originate.

I don't routinely watch the show, but did see the episodes about cheerleading and multi-level marketing. I have researched the MLM industry thoroughly. While they probably chose the 3 companies showcased for entertainment value, they provided a well respected anti-MLM educator who has hard data, and the general points P & T made about the industry are indisputable. (Except to the Kool-Aid drinking sheeple)

 

[Accidental Martyr]

I haven't seen the show in a couple of years, but I did enjoy it when I used to watch it. One of the episodes that I really remember enjoying was the one about bottled water. They filled up fake "gourmet water" bottles with tap water and then watched people on hidden camera comment about the different flavors, "crispness" etc. etc.

 

[Furcifer]

What actually bothered me the most though was the completely random "women as props" thing they had going on. Had it not been for that I would still watch it.

Magicians are using women as props? When did this start happening?

 

[pgwenthold]

This is a good point, in many ways "Environmentalists" are the environment's worst enemies, promoting organic food, corn ethanol, nuclear hysteria, and other nonsense that does much more harm than good to the environment.

In the same way that PETA is the humane society's worst enemy.

However, if P&T did a BS show animal welfare activism, it wouldn't be fair to focus on PETA as if that were what animal welfare was about.

(They probably have already done PETA, and didn't implicate the ASPCA)

 

[Dinwar]

They did an episode on PETA. It wasn't focused on animal wellfare, but on the hypocracy, double standards, lies, etc. that PETA propogates, as well as their ties to known domestic terrorist groups. Animal wellfair was more or less tangential to the episode, really only coming into play as it partains to the truth or falsehood of PETA's arguments.

In other words, when they attacked PETA they attacked PETA, not the concept of animal wellfare in general.

 

[GrandMasterFox]

In other words, when they attacked PETA they attacked PETA, not the concept of animal wellfare in general.

And why is it that people assume the environmental episodes were different?
The global warming episode was all about how idiotic eco-guilt is and the BS of Al Gore.

The final monologue from Penn clearly stated that they have no idea one way or another.

The organic food episode was well made and the enviornmental hysteria episode was about the hysteria and the cult like behaviour of environmentalists.

Clear scientific environmental research was never questioned.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I am waiting for their episode on the greatness of Ron Paul.

 

[Dinwar]

I am waiting for their episode on the greatness of Ron Paul.

Everybody got a gris-gris.

 

[RockNroll]

I remember Penn doing a speech a few seasons back (I think it was in the NASA episode, not 100% sure) where he talked about how science was awesome and how he wanted to be a sort of "cheerleader" for it, to the best of his abilities. I thought that was very nice.

Unfortunately, it seems that when science and libertopianism clash, he has a tendency to side with the latter.

 

[GrandMasterFox]

I remember Penn doing a speech a few seasons back (I think it was in the NASA episode, not 100% sure) where he talked about how science was awesome and how he wanted to be a sort of "cheerleader" for it, to the best of his abilities. I thought that was very nice.

Actually it was the ghost hunting episode. That was in comparisson to the ghost hunters who try to sound and act scientific when they're not and should settle for cheerleading on the sidelines.

 

[CMacDady]

I enjoy the topic very much, but Penn Jillete (sp?) annoys the livin' hell out of me. Yeah, I know it's his persona, but would it kill him to be a little less smug?

I am almost in agreement with you. However, the amount of breasts in the show distract just enough for me not to notice....and keep watching.

 

[jakesteele]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_arts

The term martial arts refers to the art of warfare (derived from Mars/Ares the Greek god of war) and comes from a 15th-century European term referring to what are now known as historical European martial arts specifically to what is today known as Historical Fencing, but is now most commonly associated with Asian fighting styles, especially the combat systems that originated in East Asia. The term both in its literal meaning however, and in its subsequent usage may be taken to refer to any codified combat system, regardless of origin, a practitioner of martial arts is referred to as a martial artist.

Martial arts in its broadest sense is some kind of combat system. Boxing, wrestling, ju jitsu, Muay Thai boxing are all martial arts that have proven themselves to be very effective. If you don't believe that, get in a fight with a Golden Gloves champion or a high school, college wrestler. The subjects they picked are rife with ********, but I notice they didn't include MMA, which mixes all of the above arts and more and is very effective.

With that said, I know the point of the show is to expose BS, which in general they did fairly well. But by only giving a limited slice of the topic I feel they were actually doing a disservice. I think if they had shown some MMA, etc., it would have made their case even better.

I look at their show more as a comedy than that serious. Imagine someone like Michael Shermer with his polite, affable, normal tone, without the yelling and swearing, and I think you would have a much better vehicle for critical thinking.

 

[Uncle Otto]

I used to the like the show, but since almost every other episode is pushing their Libertarian agenda, I generally skip it unless it has a topic that really interest me.

I've only seen maybe three of their episodes, including the one on MLMs. In it Penn calls Social Security a pyramid scheme. Reading your post reminded me I thought it odd at the time. But now I can see where it came from if he is a Libertarian.

 

[Checkmite]

I love Penn & Teller to bits but I can't stand the show. My take on it, from an earlier thread.

 

[tomamitai]

The sign of a shallow thinker. I mean, both shows mock things I enjoy/I do (I haven't seen the episode on the past yet, but I'm a re-inacter, so I'm assuming it'll be insulting to me), yet I still enjoy them.

If you are referring to the show from season 6, entitled "The Good 'Ol Days", a number of reenactors have some harsh words about them over in the Showtime forum for the Series. Since I'm new here, and have been lurking more than posting, I can't post the url, but it is easy to find using a search engine.

To sum up, they claim the show's staff asked leading questions and used editing to get it to look like people were saying they would prefer living in the past to the present.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Newest episode takes on the anti-vaxxers.

 

[Dinwar]

The martial arts show also didn't include krav maga, which is HIGHLY effective. Which leads me to think that they weren't calling martial arts as such BS--that would be stupid (after all, sniping, tank driving, and artilary are all technically martial arts). I think that they had two points: First, a large portion of martial arts teachers in the USA are crap, and second, that "martial arts" is not the same as "self defence". This second point is further supported by their statement that because "self defence" has a specific legal definition in this country, any self defence class must necessarily include a full explination of those laws, and few if any martial arts studios advertising their classes as self defence do so.

They could certianly have framed the issue better, but I think that their points are still valid.

To sum up, they claim the show's staff asked leading questions and used editing to get it to look like people were saying they would prefer living in the past to the present.

Doesn't surprise me. Most of us know that we're re-creating the good parts, and....well, not ignoring the bad parts, per say--we acknowledge them, and if you talk to any of us we can tell you horror stories that would give you nightmares but which people from previous eras considered "same ol' same ol'"--but we certainly downplay them while we're doing our thing. They won't let me burn pagans, not even if they bring their own stake! But yeah, we know how bad life was back then. We just also think that there were parts that were good, and it's fun.

The quote from the movie version of Timeline (which the SCA helped with, a lot) comes to mind: "The only thing worse than living in this time is dying in this time."

 

[technoextreme]

If you are referring to the show from season 6, entitled "The Good 'Ol Days", a number of reenactors have some harsh words about them over in the Showtime forum for the Series. Since I'm new here, and have been lurking more than posting, I can't post the url, but it is easy to find using a search engine.

To sum up, they claim the show's staff asked leading questions and used editing to get it to look like people were saying they would prefer living in the past to the present.

I have a feeling that they realized how insane they came off and they are trying anything to backpedal on the video. Dr. Jay Gordon is claiming the same thing and his what is said on video isn't that different from his known stance.

 

[TheSkepticCanuck]

As someone who used to belong to the SCA, I can honestly say that I would have absolutely no interest in living in medieval times. The diseases, the lack of even rudimentary health care, and many other factors, make me appreciate living in the present. However, I do think the medieval ages would be a great place to visit for a few weeks, if I ever acquire a time machine.

One must keep in mind that people doing historical re-creations are looking to have some fun, and relive the best parts of the time and place they are re-creating. Who wants to recreate dying from the bubonic plague, after all? Where is the fun in that?

ETA: Now, if I can get the TARDIS working, maybe I can go visit King Artie and the boys.

 

[Dinwar]

One must keep in mind that people doing historical re-creations are looking to have some fun, and relive the best parts of the time and place they are re-creating. Who wants to recreate dying from the bubonic plague, after all? Where is the fun in that?

There are a few tournaments from the early SCA that I could speak of.... Oh, and Pensic has its own plague. Not nearly as deadly, but you can get a nasty stomach flu apparently.

On a serious note, very well put. Most of us aren't very insane, nor are we ignorant morons who gloss over stuff. There's a reason members of the SCA talk of The Dream--that's what it is. That's what it always was. But we have the ability to make that dream a reality, even if only for a few days or a few weeks--Pensic isn't referred to as Agencourt, or London, or Bucarest, but as Valhalla. We're not forcing it on anyone else, nor are we deluding ourselves. Where's the harm in that?

People who think we're re-creating the Middle Ages as it was, to put it mildly, do not understand us. We are CREATING a society based on what the Middle Ages COULD HAVE and SHOULD HAVE BEEN. So attacking us for glossing over the bad parts of the Middle Ages is, really, tilting at windmills.

[Please note: I do not speak for the SCA, nor do I represent all, or even a representative portion of, the views members of the SCA take on these subjects. These are my personal opinions, and not intended to be taken as any sort of official anything from anyone other than me, the person posting. If you would like a full discussion, I strongly suggest visiting your local SCA group, or at least the discussion board for Armor Archive.]