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Noah's Ark

UnrepentantSinner said:
They'll probably fill it with "Original Biblically Created Kinds"TM. You can see an example in the Creation Museum where they have a pair of "horse kind" You can see a photo of them in this article.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v3/n4/horse-fossils
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Yeah, my old church came up with a similar idea. They're basically advocating some kind of super speed evolution! :) But oh no, it's not evolution because the animals don't evolve into different kinds. Sigh.

So Noah didn't have syphilis, AIDS and Hepatitis. He just had some kind of proto STD that evolved, sorry, adapted into all the different varieties we have today. :D
 
GrandMasterFox said:
Will they also fill it with 2 of every animal? Heck, even simple cardboard copies would do.

I can't wait for the idiots to build themselves and ark and try to show how you can shove 2 elephants, 2 girafes, 2 cows, 2 horses, 2 camels etc

All in a single structure based on the biblical standards
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There's a problem with the two of every animal as well. Supposedly, Noah was also instructed to stock up on all the food the animals would need. But many predators need to eat meat. So there would have to be more than two zebras to feed the lions for example.

As is typical of bible stories, they're not even internally consistent, let alone being able to be applied in the real world.

Here's some more believer logic for you:

http://www.biblestudy.org/question/who-did-cain-and-abel-marry.html

:boggled:

<Ivor wonders if believers have drool running out the side of their mouths when lapping this nonsense up>
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
There's a problem with the two of every animal as well. Supposedly, Noah was also instructed to stock up on all the food the animals would need. But many predators need to eat meat. So there would have to be more than two zebras to feed the lions for example.

As is typical of bible stories, they're not even internally consistent, let alone being able to be applied in the real world.

Here's some more believer logic for you:

http://www.biblestudy.org/question/who-did-cain-and-abel-marry.html

:boggled:

<Ivor wonders if believers have drool running out the side of their mouths when lapping this nonsense up>
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Not to mention that he was told to take 7 pairs of all the clean animals. Unfortunately, this was before God told anyone what constituted "clean", so how the heck was Noah supposed to know?
 
wollery said:
Not to mention that he was told to take 7 pairs of all the clean animals. Unfortunately, this was before God told anyone what constituted "clean", so how the heck was Noah supposed to know?
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And of course let's not forget the fact that half the so called "mythical beings" that are later named in various places in the bible (such as giants) were supposed to die in that flood and nobody seems to wonder how they survived.

Or you know... That whole question again of if there are only 2 of each animal, how the heck did they breed a 3rd generation?

Beastiality and Incest?
That was god's "holy" plan?
 
Was the ark designed to float fully loaded in seawater or in fresh water?
I presume god would take the rain into his calculations.
 
wollery said:
Not to mention that he was told to take 7 pairs of all the clean animals. Unfortunately, this was before God told anyone what constituted "clean", so how the heck was Noah supposed to know?
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And how about the freshwater tanks for the fish that can't survive in salt or brackish water?
 
GrandMasterFox said:
And of course let's not forget the fact that half the so called "mythical beings" that are later named in various places in the bible (such as giants) were supposed to die in that flood and nobody seems to wonder how they survived.

Or you know... That whole question again of if there are only 2 of each animal, how the heck did they breed a 3rd generation?

Beastiality and Incest?
That was god's "holy" plan?
Click to expand...

I had an explanation for one of those mythical beings. Evidently "Monoceros" which was translated as Unicorn in the King James version was a mistranslation and actually it was some cow with big horns.

This could, of course, be wishful thinking on their part. :)
 
rjh01 said:
Then if Noah sees land he can go to it rather than waiting for all the water leaving the earth. Imagine if he had ended up in the middle of the ocean.
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Presumably God had already planned it out to make sure he ended up in the right place. Once you've decides to build a giant ship and collect all the animals in the world to put on it based on the word of a burning bush, or whatever, it's probably not much of a stretch to leave the steering in its hands.

Captain_Swoop said:
Poop! don't forget all the poop they need to get rid of every day.
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They just dumped it all over the side and called it Ankh-Morpork.
 
Wouldn't we be able to verify a genetic "bottleneck" that occurred on the order of 5-10k years ago?

What about animals not known to science yet? I think Armadillos are restricted to the new world just for one example (there are going to be thousands of others obviously...).

Hell, what about inbreeding depression? Ectotherms require on the order of 50 individuals to side step this problem.

How did he maintain dangerous animals? Cobras, Rattlesnakes, Dealing with rattlesnakes is tricky for me and I have years of experience and good tools to do so, etc.
(Oh wait, Rattlesnakes are new world, completely unknown to the old world).

What about birds? Yeah they can fly, but they will need a place to land and rest. Bats too.

Let's not even get into the insects....
Periodic Cicadas would have been tough.

Oh, and Polar Bears would have been tricky. Elephant Seals too....

...and on...and on...and on...

The Ark story is one of the dumbest things ever.
 
It would be fun to post a open challenge to AiG asking them to float their park ark once it's built. That would certainly shut up a lot of critics!
 
Plus, when you take a gagillion animals into forced captivity, a percentage are going to fall ill- from stress if nothing else. Probably on the order of 10-20%, then second level sickness (from eating/drinking contaminated food/water) will get another 10-20%.


What about the Varanus olivaceaus? It's primary diet is two waxy fruits from East Asia. They aren't suitable for human consumption, so likely he wouldn't have even heard of them....

And like 50 more problems with the story I thought of in the shower.

Indeed, I am not sure (and lean towards no) whether we could even do this presently.
 
CriticalSock said:
Yeah, my old church came up with a similar idea. They're basically advocating some kind of super speed evolution! :) But oh no, it's not evolution because the animals don't evolve into different kinds. Sigh.
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The ad hock in Creationism borders on the pathetic. It really is. "Goo to you via the zoo" over 3.5 billion years is considered rediculous, but "antelope kind" diversifying into everything from Impalas to Elands to Dik Diks in 4,000 years is just fine. And that's when you can get Creationists to actualy define what an original "kind" was. I have thrown together a list of beings outside the usual barnyard and familiar mammal comfort zone that Creationists usually operate in and asked them what "kind" the particular beings I've listed belong to. The few answers I've received have been pathetic, the most recent and valient effort trying to use standard taxonomy while simultaneously claiming there was some mystical border that prevented a family of arthopods from belonging to an order of arthropods via common ancestry.

CriticalSock said:
So Noah didn't have syphilis, AIDS and Hepatitis. He just had some kind of proto STD that evolved, sorry, adapted into all the different varieties we have today. :D
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Ad hoc! Ad hoc! Noah and his sons clearly had the evolutionary.. er.. precoursors to those diseases, but the didn't become diseases per se until the Fall.. er Flood... er snakes were vegetarians and used their fangs to suck juice from fruit until the Fall.. er Flood..

CriticalSock said:
And how about the freshwater tanks for the fish that can't survive in salt or brackish water?
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Clearly you're an atheist ignorant of Scripture. The Bible only talks about terrestrial vertebrates indigenous to the Middle-East 3,000 years ago so the salt water and freshwater fish just survived because they could due to {insert ad hoc reason here}.

Captain_Swoop said:
Poop! don't forget all the poop they need to get rid of every day.
Click to expand...

Hibernation. Eggs. John Woodmorappe. Ad Hoc explanations about sluces and vents and magic and BS clarifications of those Ad Hoc explanations etc.

It's one of the great ironies of the Crevo debate listening/reading Creationists try and defend YECism and a literal Noahcian narrative while at the same time claiming that deep time and evolution are built on lies and assumptions.
 
CriticalSock said:
I make my own water too. It's easy! :)

Nice post though. I hadn't thought about the structural problems of making the ark before, because all the other issues with a global flood story already make it a non-flyer.




Have you got a reference for that Delvo? Thor Hyerdahl made a reed boat (The Ra expedition I think) which he took out to sea before it sank. I'm not sure what time period of Egypt he was referencing for his design but wouldn't it have been around the time of, or more recent and so more advanced than the boat building techniques at the time the flood account was written? So I think it's reasonable that the bible writer would have thought a reed boat style construction would have been the way to go. Would be nice to know for sure that's what the writer said though.

I can't remember why the Ra expedition failed but I'm sure that a reed based construction of something the size of the ark would definitely fail, placing the story firmly in the fantasy category.
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.
Planked vessels were rare to non-existent in the Euphrates area back then.
Reed boats, in a circular shape, coracles, were and are still used there.
Some modern steel vessels hog and sink.
Expecting the 8 or so folks engaged in the Ark construction and animal gathering to do any of in the time alloted is foolish. Especially, dressing the lumber alone! Getting it, making it suitable for planking and ribs... without any previous guides as to how to do it.
And harrying all those nasty animals that would be eating the others on the trip to the boat...
 
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