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MGM UK

Belgian thought said:
Oh yeah - my problem with this topic is that i cannot justify the mutilation of a persons genitalia based on some dreamt up entity,
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What are you talking about? Nobody is asking you to justify it.
OK? - By all means justify it.
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What makes you think I would want to do that?

But, okay, since you insist: I'm a "victim" of MGM. I have no idea what justification my parents used, or if they had any justification at all. I never asked, because it was never a problem for me.

Let me be clear: I don't need to justify it. I just need to live with it. Leave me out of your crusade.


This signature is intended to irradiate people.
 
Seismosaurus said:
I'm glad they were arrested. I hope the Doctor is struck off, and all three do jail time.

Circumcision of an infant should be illegal, period. It should be treated like what it is - child abuse.
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I had both my sons circumcised in accordance with my religious heritage. Neither appears to be the worse for it, 9 and 12 years later. I would not recommend circumcision for health or non-religious reasons. However I don't believe that I committed child abuse. How would you have me punished?
 
Loss Leader said:
I had both my sons circumcised in accordance with my religious heritage. Neither appears to be the worse for it, 9 and 12 years later. I would not recommend circumcision for health or non-religious reasons. However I don't believe that I committed child abuse. How would you have me punished?
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Prison.
 
Loss Leader said:
I had both my sons circumcised in accordance with my religious heritage. Neither appears to be the worse for it, 9 and 12 years later. I would not recommend circumcision for health or non-religious reasons. However I don't believe that I committed child abuse. How would you have me punished?
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You didn't do anything illegal so I'm not sure why you think there should be any punishment?
 
Darat said:
You didn't do anything illegal so I'm not sure why you think there should be any punishment?
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He was responding to my stating that I believed it should be illegal, and thus there should be punishment.
 
It's an easy answer. What's the punishment for circumcising a girl? It should be the same.

I sympathise with Loss Leader and his cultural/religious reasons. However, I don't think those reasons should trump a person's right to be bodily intact. When kosher and halal butchery was banned in European countries, Jews and Muslims adapted. I'm sure they will do the same once male circumcision is banned.
 
Loss Leader said:
I had both my sons circumcised in accordance with my religious heritage. Neither appears to be the worse for it, 9 and 12 years later. I would not recommend circumcision for health or non-religious reasons. However I don't believe that I committed child abuse. How would you have me punished?
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That sounds like you find it acceptable for religious reasons, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Given that Abraham's real-estate deal with god is about as likely to have actually happened as kangaroos and polar bears making their way to the Middle East to climb on board Noah's ark, what would be your religious justification for lopping bits of skin off the penises of baby boys?
 
Loss Leader said:
I had both my sons circumcised in accordance with my religious heritage. Neither appears to be the worse for it, 9 and 12 years later. I would not recommend circumcision for health or non-religious reasons. However I don't believe that I committed child abuse. How would you have me punished?
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So you support it as long as the reason had no basis in reality?

That's kinda messed up. I'd be more inclined to give someone a pass if they believed poor medical information than if they are doing it as part of some kind of magic tradition.

To me it is like you are saying " I don't support gun ownership except if someone is worried about dragons. ".
 
GlennB said:
That sounds like you find it acceptable for religious reasons, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Given that Abraham's real-estate deal with god is about as likely to have actually happened as kangaroos and polar bears making their way to the Middle East to climb on board Noah's ark, what would be your religious justification for lopping bits of skin off the penises of baby boys?
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You imply a distinction where none exists.

I don't believe in the literal truth of the bible. I don't even believe in any sort of god.

I do, however, believe in Jews. I believe that religious ritual, including rites of passage, are important for community cohesion. And I believe that religion binds people together in a manner that cannot otherwise be accomplished. If I were christian and there were 2 billion of me at least, I might care less. But in my country (with the second highest Jewish population), we're only 1.8% of the nation. Teaching my boys that they have a historical identity is, to me, reason enough.

Now, I have also forced them to sit through Hebrew school and services, both of which they: 1) remember; 2) hated; and 3) lasted a million times longer than their circumcisions. Certainly we agree that not all abuse is physical and that emotional abuse is terrible. So, does making my children learn Jewish history, language, prayer and culture against their "wills" qualify as child abuse?

If not, then I see no difference.
 
I love people telling me how up in arms I should be because I was circumcised. I'm even more entertained at the fact people make it their business. I'm 36 years old, and I've never, Ever, EVER felt like I was "mutilated" or otherwise retarded in my progress because of it. It hasn't stopped me from enjoying sex. It hasn't stopped me from experiencing anything in my life. We have kids that are and aren't circumcised in our family, and it's never even become a subject of conversation.

Every time I see this come up, and granted my views are anecdotal, I think to myself, "Who gives a ******"
 
Loss Leader said:
You imply a distinction where none exists.

I don't believe in the literal truth of the bible. I don't even believe in any sort of god.

I do, however, believe in Jews. I believe that religious ritual, including rites of passage, are important for community cohesion. And I believe that religion binds people together in a manner that cannot otherwise be accomplished. If I were christian and there were 2 billion of me at least, I might care less. But in my country (with the second highest Jewish population), we're only 1.8% of the nation. Teaching my boys that they have a historical identity is, to me, reason enough.
Now, I have also forced them to sit through Hebrew school and services, both of which they: 1) remember; 2) hated; and 3) lasted a million times longer than their circumcisions. Certainly we agree that not all abuse is physical and that emotional abuse is terrible. So, does making my children learn Jewish history, language, prayer and culture against their "wills" qualify as child abuse?

If not, then I see no difference.
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Was it necessary to operate on them to achieve the highlighted part?

Thing is, they can accept or reject the religious/community/culture identity part when older. They can't regrow their foreskins. If they accept it they can then choose to get the operation, fully aware of all it entails. You had no right to modify your kids' bodies for the reasons you give here.

"Tribal scars" can be justified in exactly the same way you've justified your actions. You OK with those too?

Actually, I'm beginning to suspect you're engaged in very deep irony here.
 
Loss Leader said:
You imply a distinction where none exists.

I don't believe in the literal truth of the bible. I don't even believe in any sort of god.

I do, however, believe in Jews. I believe that religious ritual, including rites of passage, are important for community cohesion. And I believe that religion binds people together in a manner that cannot otherwise be accomplished. If I were christian and there were 2 billion of me at least, I might care less. But in my country (with the second highest Jewish population), we're only 1.8% of the nation. Teaching my boys that they have a historical identity is, to me, reason enough.

Now, I have also forced them to sit through Hebrew school and services, both of which they: 1) remember; 2) hated; and 3) lasted a million times longer than their circumcisions. Certainly we agree that not all abuse is physical and that emotional abuse is terrible. So, does making my children learn Jewish history, language, prayer and culture against their "wills" qualify as child abuse?

If not, then I see no difference.
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If you can't think of a better way to create group cohesion than mutilating wangs I'm a little scared. But if you are really that hard up for ideas I have about a thousand better than mutilation.
 
plague311 said:
I love people telling me how up in arms I should be because I was circumcised. I'm even more entertained at the fact people make it their business. I'm 36 years old, and I've never, Ever, EVER felt like I was "mutilated" or otherwise retarded in my progress because of it. It hasn't stopped me from enjoying sex. It hasn't stopped me from experiencing anything in my life. We have kids that are and aren't circumcised in our family, and it's never even become a subject of conversation.

Every time I see this come up, and granted my views are anecdotal, I think to myself, "Who gives a ******"
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That would be like me saying "I don't see how there are any advantages to being tall I have been short my entire life and im doing fine. "

People can "do fine"missing a leg I've met quite a few, doesn't mean hacking off someone's leg isn't going to negatively effect them.
 
plague311 said:
I love people telling me how up in arms I should be because I was circumcised. I'm even more entertained at the fact people make it their business. I'm 36 years old, and I've never, Ever, EVER felt like I was "mutilated" or otherwise retarded in my progress because of it. It hasn't stopped me from enjoying sex. It hasn't stopped me from experiencing anything in my life. We have kids that are and aren't circumcised in our family, and it's never even become a subject of conversation.

Every time I see this come up, and granted my views are anecdotal, I think to myself, "Who gives a ******"
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It is great that you are so body positive. I'm sure no one here is saying you shouldn't be proud of your body or that you should be embarrassed about the scars on your penis.
 
Darat said:
It is great that you are so body positive. I'm sure no one here is saying you shouldn't be proud of your body or that you should be embarrassed about the scars on your penis.
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Yeah, people are only saying that my genitals were "mutilated". How could anyone perceive that as a reason I shouldn't be "proud of my body" or embarrassed? After all, in the opinions of those people in this very thread, that are stating verbatim what I'm stating now, I've been mutilated and my parents are stupid. Sure, nothing negative there.

GlennB said:
Was it necessary to operate on them to achieve the highlighted part?

Thing is, they can accept or reject the religious/community/culture identity part when older. They can't regrow their foreskins. If they accept it they can then choose to get the operation, fully aware of all it entails. You had no right to modify your kids' bodies for the reasons you give here.

"Tribal scars" can be justified in exactly the same way you've justified your actions. You OK with those too?

Actually, I'm beginning to suspect you're engaged in very deep irony here.
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The **** they can't:

Non-surgical foreskin restoration, accomplished through tissue expansion, is the more commonly used method. Both the skin of the penile shaft and the mucosal inner lining of the foreskin, if any remains after circumcision, may be expanded.
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plague311 said:
Yeah, people are only saying that my genitals were "mutilated". How could anyone perceive that as a reason I shouldn't be "proud of my body" or embarrassed? After all, in the opinions of those people in this very thread, that are stating verbatim what I'm stating now, I've been mutilated and my parents are stupid. Sure, nothing negative there.

...snip...
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You have been mutilated, I can't see how you can disagree with that. In terms of possible mutilations it is of course no where near the worse mutilation and it is in your society one of the few legally acceptable mutilations a parent can have inflicted on their children.

But you are not responsible for what was done to you and no one should be telling you how you should feel about what was done to you. By all mean "embrace" it, by all means be proud about it and be certain you prefer being the way you are - you have every right to have that opinion and anyone who tells you you don't should be the ones who are ashamed of themselves.

As for the comments about your parents - I have no idea of their reasoning etc. but do keep in mind that even the most intelligent people can and do make stupid decisions.
 
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